v6.24rc11 - March 1 2021

[Edgemeal]

v6.24rc11 - March 1 2021
* Includes branch: LV2
* Includes branch: razor editing
# Razor edit: allow edit to occur even if there are no matches for any envelope
# Razor edit: do not move or copy envelopes in the media lane when ignoring envelope type
# macOS: fix 10.6 support

Full changelog / Latest pre-releases

[Vagelis]

# Razor edit: allow edit to occur even if there are no matches for any envelope

Could you please point what's been changed? I can't find the difference

[RobinGShore]

I'm still having a problem where my razor edits get cleared if I change track selection using an action instead of the mouse.

[Vagelis]

This is weird, where goes my envelope of the first track on media lane when i paste it to the second track?




Also what if i want to move or copy just the envelope on media lane from one track to the other? I can't because it selects all the visible envelopes too..

I just want to add that RE or AS should give the freedom of moving or copying what we see in the box. (at least with ignoring envelope type mod)
Having the action move points with items and razor edits attached to RE for some functions, doesn't help or match well with how AS should work imo.

EDIT: can the action move points with items be separated from RE please?
IF we create RE on media lane, it should just move or copy what's in this lane only (e.g item with envelopes) and not all the visible envelopes from envelope lanes.
If we want to select also the rest envelopes, we just extend the RE, simple.

Why should we need to change modes for editing items with envelopes on media lane with RE? In other daws the biggest advantage with AS is that WYSIWYG.

[schwa]

Envelopes in the media lane are ignored by razor edits when ignoring envelope type.

With a regular razor edit, those envelope areas will matched volume->volume, pan->pan, etc and everything is predictable.

But when ignoring envelope type, the expected behavior becomes too unclear. In your screencap, what should happen to the area on the 2nd envelope in the media lane on the first track? The most predictable behavior is for REAPER to ignore media lane envelopes when ignoring envelope type.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by schwa

Envelopes in the media lane are ignored by razor edits when ignoring envelope type.

With a regular razor edit, those envelope areas will matched volume->volume, pan->pan, etc and everything is predictable.

But when ignoring envelope type, the expected behavior becomes too unclear. In your screencap, what should happen to the area on the 2nd envelope in the media lane on the first track? The most predictable behavior is for REAPER to ignore media lane envelopes when ignoring envelope type.

But i like to use more the ignore envelope type because it gives more freedom to move or copy to any envelope and also it's closer to how i used to work with Cubase for years.

Imo It should ignore only the second envelope of the first track media lane and not all of them, i would expect at least to move or copy the first envelope.

Why to ignore media lane envelopes when ignoring envelope type? because is it on media lane? That's not WYSIWYG , AS should move or copy 'areas' and what's inside the box.
In my awareness with other Daws, that's the biggest advantage.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Imo It should ignore only the second envelope of the first track media lane and not all of them, i would expect at least to move or copy the first envelope.

But how should Reaper decide which envelope is "first" and which is "second" if they are both in the media lane? There's doesn't really seem to be a good way of knowing where media lane envelopes should end up when ignoring envelope types, so I think Schwa's right that the best thing to do is just disregard them.

[Vagelis]

Can we please have the ability to move envelopes with items on media lane with ignoring envelope type?

Imo also RE should be independent from move envelope points with items action, and just move or copy what's inside the box without any restrictions or different modes.
If a user wants the behavior which selects every visible envelope with the action move points/item on, it could be easily implemented by simply extending the RE.

Yes with this action on, we can move or copy envelopes with items but with restrictions such as:
We can't move envelope and item to the media lane of another track without moving every visible envelope as well.
Turning the action of, we can select just the item and envelope on media lane, but then we can't move the envelope. Why should exist such restriction?

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

But how should Reaper decide which envelope is "first" and which is "second" if they are both in the media lane? There's doesn't really seem to be a good way of knowing where media lane envelopes should end up when ignoring envelope types, so I think Schwa's right that the best thing to do is just disregard them.

by the number of lanes and their order. On the other hand , just doing or getting nothing doesn't make sense at all for AS behavior...

They should land where you drag the AS, WYSIWYG no restrictions

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

by the number of lanes and their order. On the other hand , just doing or getting nothing doesn't make sense at all for AS behavior...

Not sure what you mean by their order. That makes sense if all the envelopes are in their own lanes, but if there are multiple envelopes displayed in the media lane there is no obvious order.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

Not sure what you mean by their order. That makes sense if all the envelopes are in their own lanes, but if there are multiple envelopes displayed in the media lane there is no obvious order.

If you start counting from top to the bottom, for sure i m not a coder to answer which are the statements, but it makes sense to me.

But again getting nothing it doesn't for AS behavior, you see what's in your selection and after you expect to see your edit but you get nothing. If there was no envelope visible on media lane of the destination track ok don't do nothing, but when there is, it's very weird

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Imo also RE should be independent from move envelope points with items action

Please no! I would be really disappointed if RE lost the move envelopes with items option, especially this late in the game. There are lots of situations where I want to be able to move items/empty space in an RE but leave the envelopes on the media lane in place

Taking this option away would make RE feel really inconsistent with the rest of Reapers editing paradigm. Not to mention that every other DAW I'm familiar with (which is admittedly only a couple) has an equivalent option that applies to area selection.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

If you start counting from top to the bottom

If all the envelopes are in the media lane though, top to bottom is just a reflection of their current values and not any sort of order. I guess You're saying that the envelope with the highest value should always be considered the first one? I see how could make sense on a very basic level, but it seems pretty arbitrary and not that useful practically.

Also, what happens if two envelopes have the same value (i.e the same vertical position in the lane)? What if they intersect so that the top-bottom relationship switches? How would you determine the order then?

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

Please no! I would be really disappointed if RE lost the move envelopes with items option, especially this late in the game. There are lots of situations where I want to be able to move items/empty space in an RE but leave the envelopes on the media lane in place

Taking this option away would make RE feel really inconsistent with the rest of Reapers editing paradigm. Not to mention that every other DAW I'm familiar with (which is admittedly only a couple) has an equivalent option that applies to area selection.

Ok that's true, but how could we achieve to move just envelope and item on media lane without moving every visible envelope on envelope lanes as well?

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

You're saying that the envelope with the highest value should always be considered the first one?

Nope, i don't mean by their values. I mean literally by their order from top to the bottom, top=1, second=2 etc. I'm sure the devs could find a way to detect their order on media lane.

[schwa]

Depending on the vertical space and preferences, envelopes may be drawn overlapping each other in the media lane.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by schwa

Depending on the vertical space and preferences, envelopes may be drawn overlapping each other in the media lane.

Can't say anything about this case. Even if we could select separately each envelope on media lanes as ableton, there would still be a problem..

[Vagelis]

I would be happy if we could move media envelopes with ignoring envelope type and if move points with envelopes wouldn't select all the visible envelopes when its on with RE. Instead we just could drag and extend it if we want the visible envelopes too.

I explained most of the reasons above, such as then we could move or copy just the item and envelope on media lane and not all visible envelopes.

[RobinGShore]

Ah, I get it now. I've always had my preferences set so that envelopes in the media lane overlap each other like in Schwa's image. I had totally forgotten that they could be shown in their own stacked lanes within the media lane. This is why I was so confused about all the talk of top to bottom order.

[bolgwrad]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Nope, i don't mean by their values. I mean literally by their order from top to the bottom, top=1, second=2 etc. I'm sure the devs could find a way to detect their order on media lane.

I don't follow why you would want the behaviour of 'copy area+envelope, but forget what type the envelope is'. Is it so you can apply particular shapes to any envelope just by dragging?

The media lane envelope/automation window gives the envelope 'hierarchy', but if you want to ignore envelope type and still copy, you'd have to have 'dummy envelopes', I guess. Which wouldn't be WYSIWYG either.

[cfillion]

Originally Posted by mabian

v6.24rc1 - February 16 2021

• + ReaScript: allow EEL2 scripts to call third-party API functions without using extension_api()

Calling extension functions that take no arguments using the new syntax fails with "needs 0 params: 'FuncName( <!> ))'".

Also the documentation says "(requires REAPER 6.30 or later)" instead of 6.24.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

Ah, I get it now. I've always had my preferences set so that envelopes in the media lane overlap each other like in Schwa's image. I had totally forgotten that they could be shown in their own stacked lanes within the media lane. This is why I was so confused about all the talk of top to bottom order.

Ahh that's why, yes makes sense now

Originally Posted by bolgwrad

I don't follow why you would want the behaviour of 'copy area+envelope, but forget what type the envelope is'. Is it so you can apply particular shapes to any envelope just by dragging?

It's just for basic editing (move/copy) envelopes from one media lane to another with ignoring envelope type and because i don't want to change modifiers to do a simple thing like this one. Simply I just want to get what i see in the box.
And because even with move points with items on, it doesn't do anything.
I'm sure people who are going to use this modifier will be confused when this happens

Originally Posted by bolgwrad

The media lane envelope/automation window gives the envelope 'hierarchy', but if you want to ignore envelope type and still copy, you'd have to have 'dummy envelopes', I guess. Which wouldn't be WYSIWYG either.

Yeap it's not WYSIWYG which makes it complicated. I want to see my edit where i moved or copied the RE. Ignore envelope type should just ignore the type of envelope not its existence.

[AZpercussion]

This is cool behavior for copy ignoring envelope type, I think!!

Originally Posted by Edgemeal

But I can't find such behaviour in rc10 on WIN 8, it just copies only volume envelope.

It would be great to have such one for copy ignoring envelope type.
Because if I want to copy existing envelopes to other type envelopes, their order would be different. And if i getting automation items, there is easy to place its on lane I need or delete some of its.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by schwa

Depending on the vertical space and preferences, envelopes may be drawn overlapping each other in the media lane.

I thought about this a bit more. What if when they overlap like this do nothing, but instead when we make the track height bigger and show them in number order to be able and detect their number order so then we could move or paste?

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by AZpercussion

But I can't find such behaviour in rc10 on WIN 8, it just copies only volume envelope.

Maybe because you should use rc11 instead?

[bolgwrad]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

I want to see my edit where i moved or copied the RE. Ignore envelope type should just ignore the type of envelope not its existence.

I quite like the idea of discrete envelope 'templates' such as sine, sawtooth, square, custom, etc that could be dragged into an 'unassigned envelope' lane, but as far as RE goes I think you're looking at Reaper 7!

[mccrabney]

^

i've got a track full of those hidden in my new default project these days.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by bolgwrad

I quite like the idea of discrete envelope 'templates' such as sine, sawtooth, square, custom, etc that could be dragged into a blank envelope lane, but as far as RE goes I think you're looking at Reaper 7!

It's not rocket science, i just want to move or copy an envelope from one media lane to another. I have this restriction only for media lanes and not for envelope lanes, why??

In the gif below the envelopes are the same on both tracks.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by bolgwrad

I quite like the idea of discrete envelope 'templates' such as sine, sawtooth, square, custom, etc that could be dragged into a blank envelope lane, but as far as RE goes I think you're looking at Reaper 7!

That's what automation items exist for!

[mccrabney]

specifically, you want to move an envelope from a designated type to a non-designated type. in the media lane, users might have a dozen AI elsewhere in the track - active, visible, but not present. your movement makes sense if you only have 1 envelope active in that way, but if you have multiple AI it becomes unclear as to "where" you want it pasted.

^ note that the behavior you demonstrate (using the "ignore type" modifier) looks is a little funny when contrasted to a mere drag-drop, which is allowed:



conversely, drag-dropping multiple distinct-envelope AI in that manner is not allowed, presumably because REAPER wouldn't know where to put what - even if both envelope types are visible/active on the target track.



as a staunch media-lane envelope user, i am OK with the requirement to "show envelopes in envelope lane" in order to selectively grab specific AI out of a complex track, where AI sit stacked on items like ceremonial clergy hats.

i do think that a quick way to grab/move ONLY AI or ONLY items from an RE would be helpful in dealing with some of these cases.

[AZpercussion]

Originally Posted by vitalker

Maybe because you should use rc11 instead?

No, exactly rc10, because Edgemeal posted this gif in the rc10 thread. I tested rc10 too.
But here is actual thread.
And such old behavior is right, I suggest.

[Vagelis]

@Mccrabney

I don't think is funny but more logical, getting NOTHING is funny.. Especially in the simplest scenario of just one envelope..
It's definitely not WYSIWYG, why to have a such a restriction? IF we have multiple envelopes or AIs i suggested above a way to detect the order of the envelopes on media lane from top to the bottom.

I m happy you are happy with existing behavior but what i suggest i believe won't change the way you work. also if a user is happy doesn't mean everyone is with something else

[deeb]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

It's not rocket science, i just want to move or copy an envelope from one media lane to another. I have this restriction only for media lanes and not for envelope lanes, why??

In the gif below the envelopes are the same on both tracks.

in this use case i would expect that the media item on track 2 would be replaced by the item and envelopes from track one. In the case of more complex scenarios in which envelopes not match 100% between source and target then it should not be allowed.

If matching envelope target is in media lane then new envelope would be updated in media lane, if target not in media lane then it should be updated in envelope lanes . So basically target would define where the envelope will be placed in the end, but maybe some people would prefer other way around - Source defines the media lane or envelope lane position (but i think it would be more messy visually)

[mccrabney]

if it wasn't clear, i agree that "getting nothing" is what looks funny, especially when there's just 1 envelope involved.

i'd prefer envelopes to drop 1:1 onto their correspondingly-numbered fellow envelope/media lanes on other tracks, as you describe -- further even, this includes when they are overlapping in the media lane as displayed by schwa above, since their order still exists and is easily viewed by toggling the overlap display action.

when the "ignore type" modifier is used, the "order of visible envelopes" variable might as well be what determines the order of the pasted envelope data.

my contentedness with toggling "show in lane" in order to snatch specific AI is in reference to situations like this, where i see no other reasonable option if i just want to RE-grab one of these AI and paste it into a different envelope in a similarly complex target track:

It's definitely not WYSIWYG, why to have a such a restriction?

using RE to move an envelope from 1 type to another is a necessary departure from WYSIWYG axiom, but i know what you mean as far as expecting the shapes/objects being moved to assume a sensible destination.

[bolgwrad]

Originally Posted by vitalker

That's what automation items exist for!

Well I didn't like to say

RE/AS is a radical new-to-Reaper feature that people have been crying out for, and though it might not meet WYSIWYG 100%, IMHO dragging an envelope to a media or envelope lane - while forgetting its type - is not a function I would expect to have or need, at least for some while. Especially when there are other ways of doing the same thing.

[mccrabney]

i'm going to try to do more to isolate this issue, but some of my AIs are getting "stuck" and i'm not sure why.

here, the top 2 tracks are duplicates. the bottom track is a new track with nothing on it. when i move the RE across the tracks, the pan track gets stuck in the top track.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by cfillion

Calling extension functions that take no arguments using the new syntax fails with "needs 0 params: 'FuncName( <!> ))'".

Also the documentation says "(requires REAPER 6.30 or later)" instead of 6.24.

Thanks!