Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER Feature Requests

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-25-2018, 07:06 AM   #1
Bansaw
Human being with feelings
 
Bansaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 430
Default Reaper built-in plugins GUI...

I'm a happy Reaper user, but I would like to suggest an improvement.
Not really in terms of functionality, but aesthetics.

I'm kindof a visual person and have been disappointed with the look of Reaper and especially the built in plugins.
I reskinned my Reaper so it looks good now, but the plugins could do with a decent GUI facelift.

As a dev team you would probably dismiss this and rather focus on raw functionality, but remember, the look of a product, its aesthetics, can be a part of the attractiveness of a product.
Reaper can be attractive in terms of its functionality, but also look good too, and in doing so, become a better product.

Like it or not, some people are very visual, especially in the context of "the Arts."
Bansaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 07:30 AM   #2
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,785
Default

People have been asking for this for years, it didn't happen. It's unlikely it ever will. There are some people who added a GUI to a couple of JS FX, but that's about it. As far as ReaPlugs, those are not skinnable as JS FX can be, so fat chance about that being changed...
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 07:56 AM   #3
Dannii
Human being with feelings
 
Dannii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
Default

REAPER 6 is just around the corner and I'd be happy to settle with having all the "windows white bits" open to custom colours through themes.

The workaround using windows high contrast custom themes doesn't work with some of my plugins. High contrast themes make the meter graphics on some plugins not work.
__________________
Dannii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 10:09 AM   #4
EpicSounds
Human being with feelings
 
EpicSounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
REAPER 6 is just around the corner
we don't know that. We might be on 5.999999999 until next year
__________________
REAPER Video Tutorials, Tips & Tricks and more at The REAPER Blog
EpicSounds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 12:31 PM   #5
Dannii
Human being with feelings
 
Dannii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds View Post
we don't know that. We might be on 5.999999999 until next year
True enough. I'm just speculating based on previous major update cycles and was speaking in relative terms.
__________________
Dannii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 01:42 PM   #6
juliansader
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,714
Default

By tweaking the REAPER and Windows themes, JSFX and Reaplugs can look somewhat more interesting and less glaringly white:



Attached Images
File Type: png REAPER with Windows themed - JSFX - Copy.png (22.1 KB, 5864 views)
File Type: png REAPER with Windows themed - ReaComp - Copy.png (53.6 KB, 8517 views)

Last edited by juliansader; 02-25-2018 at 02:49 PM.
juliansader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 02:27 PM   #7
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,785
Default

Those are glaringly green, though.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 12:19 AM   #8
Dannii
Human being with feelings
 
Dannii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
By tweaking the REAPER and Windows themes, JSFX and Reaplugs can look somewhat more interesting and less glaringly white:
I was doing that until I ran into problems with Windows high contrast themes preventing the metering from working with some plugins.
__________________
Dannii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 06:06 AM   #9
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,922
Default

You could change to linux where we can theme the colours of the standard window controls. Who knows maybe an option for using SWELL on windows too.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 09:15 AM   #10
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,814
Default

I’m sure if they used their WALTER engine in some form we’d see all kind of crazy and cool shit.

They’ve hardly (ever?) changed their plugins basic parameter count or functionality.

Would that be worth the work that takes though ? The devs probably considered this years ago, and perhaps with each round of WALTER improvements.

Maybe it never was worth it. Would a new plugin or a v2 of a plugin be preferred ? They’re not in the business of selling plugins after all.
__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2018, 07:35 AM   #11
sievr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 126
Default

i think v6 will be when ARA will be ready
sievr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2018, 02:34 PM   #12
dodobirds
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
People have been asking for this for years, it didn't happen. It's unlikely it ever will. There are some people who added a GUI to a couple of JS FX, but that's about it. As far as ReaPlugs, those are not skinnable as JS FX can be, so fat chance about that being changed...
I'm curious....if we (as a community) came up with a decent GUI alternative for ReaPlugs, would the devs have any issues implementing them?

If you say that ReaPlugs are not skinnable then they are not. But what if we just provided the graphics for a new look to the devs? Would they consider improving the look a bit?

I, too, am an incredibly visual person and the way things look really affect my workflow. I will admit that I haven't used ReaPlugs a lot because of the way the look (even though they might be miles better and more efficient than expensive 3rd plugins).

I am not a graphic artist by any means but I do know my way around photoshop and would be happy to contribute anything I can (that would of course be then polished by pros!).

Just a thought
dodobirds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2018, 04:30 PM   #13
crimsonmerry
Human being with feelings
 
crimsonmerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodobirds View Post
But what if we just provided the graphics for a new look to the devs? Would they consider improving the look a bit?

I, too, am an incredibly visual person and the way things look really affect my workflow. I will admit that I haven't used ReaPlugs a lot because of the way the look (even though they might be miles better and more efficient than expensive 3rd plugins.)
Mmmnn nah, there's already White Tie, a super talented designer on the team. I think i've read an old thread where he post some of his ideas for ReaPlugs just for fun.

But maayyybe if someone put a llama on the GUI...

To me the plain-ness of ReaPlugs makes a great balance with other more attractive plugs. Perhaps like drinking a water after a sweet cake.
crimsonmerry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2018, 05:01 PM   #14
Bansaw
Human being with feelings
 
Bansaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 430
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodobirds View Post
I'm curious....if we (as a community) came up with a decent GUI alternative for ReaPlugs, would the devs have any issues implementing them?
Just a thought
Not a bad idea but if its multiple designers involved then they'll all have different looks and different quality standards.
This has to be an in-house designer ideally so they can sit down as a team and plan it.
Maybe Cockos will let the community "skin" their plugins, and that way multiple graphically gifted people could upload designs in the same way they do with themes.
I would probably use Rea plugs more if they looked better. But I am visual person like you are.
(I would hate working in Ableton because it looks horrible. Its a good DAW but the look of the thing would nauseate me no end.)
Bansaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2018, 06:46 PM   #15
Not_Here
Human being with feelings
 
Not_Here's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: West Coast - Sun, Sun, and more Sun
Posts: 719
Default

Looks and identifiable characteristics would also promote a certain level of wanting to use something, that looks a little like what it's "trying" to copy.

I think quite a few fall short in their quality sound wise so a facelift wouldn't make that much off a difference. If the stock plugs were all that, then I would think you'd hear them talked about in the same light as some other DAW's plugs.

I don't even bother with most of them anymore. Very rare to see any presets, zero documentation (other than Kenny vids), and honestly only a few really sound or function great.

IMHO. YMMV.
__________________
Rockin the Not_Room... Kali LP6 |iLoud |Mackie Big Knob |AXE I/O |Bugera |Ibanez |Fender |Nektar |Amplitube |PRS Supermodels |iRig Stomp I/O |ARC 3.0 |
Not_Here is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2018, 12:17 PM   #16
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Default

Forget who, but someone already posted "pretty" GUIs for a couple of the reaplugs a while back.
I downloaded them & had a look and frankly all they did for me was take up more screen real estate to no great purpose. Although they WERE nice looking.

I an tempted to start a whine thread about the amount of screen space taken up by t.p. plugins when you turn off the proprietary GUI, but that`s a bit pointless too.

Oh - and I would have thought that if this was really viewed by many as a serious problem out enterprising geek community would have already buried us in innovative buttons and knobs GUIs by now...
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2018, 12:51 PM   #17
Masi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Forget who, but someone already posted "pretty" GUIs for a couple of the reaplugs a while back.
I downloaded them & had a look and frankly all they did for me was take up more screen real estate to no great purpose. Although they WERE nice looking.
My complaint about the GUI of the plugins is that they don't follow the GUI design of the rest of Reaper. For me consistency in a GUI is very high on the list of requirements. Even if we forget about WALTER the GUI is not consistent. Eg the input/output gain display strips are sometimes here sometimes there. I'm a messy guy, so my tools have to be cleanly

Masi
Masi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2018, 09:58 PM   #18
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,634
Default

While I don't disagree on the request itself, the Plugins that come with Reaper are not "built in" but just come with the distribution, to be used by the customer or to be ignored, if (s)he likes other better.

Hence a "common GUI design" might be nice, but not an obvious requirement.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2018, 12:56 AM   #19
Masi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
Default

Ok, I want a consistent GUI for plugins that are *shipped* with a DAW incl. Reaper.

Masi
Masi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2018, 07:04 AM   #20
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,634
Default

Great, so you are clear, while the thread topic is misleading.

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 06:09 AM   #21
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 797
Default

While I agree that some sort of skin support (f.e. at the same level as REAPER itself) can be a nice idea, but please be aware about the following effect of "modern aesthetics" in music applications:

Turn off your monitor... and then try to find a way to control your DAW and plug-ins. It will not take long till you find that REAPER is one from 2 still developed exceptions in the DAWs world for which that is possible (another one in Samplitude, old Sonar 8.5 is still in use for the same reason, but it does not work well in that mode with Windows 8+).
The same for REAPER plug-ins. You will be able to control almost everything in them (some graphic based editing is not possible).

You can easily find why JUCE based plug-ins will produce only one word in any screen reader: "Unknown". I was about to ignore all JUCE based plug-ins after reading that. There was way better reply recently, and that give some hope. But still not more then just a hope.

My point: please keep that in mind when proposing "beautifications".
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 07:59 AM   #22
Masi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
Turn off your monitor... and then try to find a way to control your DAW and plug-ins. It will not take long till you find that REAPER is one from 2 still developed exceptions in the DAWs world for which that is possible (another one in Samplitude, old Sonar 8.5 is still in use for the same reason, but it does not work well in that mode with Windows 8+).
If Reaper is accessible with a screen reader and has skinning/themes why shouldn't this possible with the plugins as well?

Actually skinning/theming makes sense for plugins exactly beacause of accessibility. Reason being that with that in place you an change colours for the colour blind. You can increase sizes and enhance contrast for folks with limited vision. You can adjust the distances of UI elements for those with movement disorders.

Masi
Masi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2018, 03:18 AM   #23
RCJacH
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Beijing, China
Posts: 215
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masi View Post
If Reaper is accessible with a screen reader and has skinning/themes why shouldn't this possible with the plugins as well?

Actually skinning/theming makes sense for plugins exactly beacause of accessibility. Reason being that with that in place you an change colours for the colour blind. You can increase sizes and enhance contrast for folks with limited vision. You can adjust the distances of UI elements for those with movement disorders.

Masi
I think one reason is that the GUI of some plugins are graphic based, rather than controller based. One example is with JSFX GUI, a friend of mine, who's completely blind, told me that he can't screen read any JSFX with GUI, and that limits his choice of plugins. If JUCE based plugins are graphic based as well, then I guess it would be nearly impossible to use with screen reader.
RCJacH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2018, 04:22 AM   #24
Masi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCJacH View Post
One example is with JSFX GUI, a friend of mine, who's completely blind, told me that he can't screen read any JSFX with GUI, and that limits his choice of plugins.
I assume that in this case there are images with some magic. There are APIs available (I think it's on an OS level) so that an application can tell a screen reader which UI elements are avialable on any given window.

I don't known about JUCE so I cannot say if they support assistive technologies. How about Waves's plugins? I notice that they have a focus (indicating the currently active UI element). For me this is a good sign that they may also work with a screen reader.

Anyway, if you want to help your friend ask for improvement of the JSFX UI API. So anything that looks like a button is a button for Reaper and therefore can be reported to the screen reader as a button.

Masi
Masi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 03:06 AM   #25
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 797
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masi View Post
If Reaper is accessible with a screen reader and has skinning/themes why shouldn't this possible with the plugins as well?

Actually skinning/theming makes sense for plugins exactly beacause of accessibility. Reason being that with that in place you an change colours for the colour blind. You can increase sizes and enhance contrast for folks with limited vision. You can adjust the distances of UI elements for those with movement disorders.

Masi
All that is correct. The problem is during enhanced GUI development programmers simply FORGET about accessibility component.

My point in this thread was just reminding about the problem. For a reason I still do not understand, affected people are rarely sufficiently loud. Which developer on a request from a blind person will not add several lines? I guess many will do. But if developer is not aware, he will not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masi View Post
I don't known about JUCE so I cannot say if they support assistive technologies. How about Waves's plugins? I notice that they have a focus (indicating the currently active UI element). For me this is a good sign that they may also work with a screen reader.
General picture you can find there: https://reaperaccessibility.com/inde...ts_and_effects

JUCE is a "graphic box". Using external tools, it is possible to operate some components (moving mouse by a script to particular coordinates, OCR specific window region). It is even possible to imitate accessibility using that approach (as a prove, I have managed to make the whole AD2 interface accessible, working within Sonar, I have plans to do the same for AD2 in REAPER).

But it could be way simpler if all GUI developers keep the point in mind every time they add a "graphic control".
An example: adding a "label" with text using standard OS API is accessible, just "drawing" characters on the same place is not.
Visually the result is the same, but not for a screen reader (they do not really "read the screen", like someone may guess).
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 04:30 AM   #26
zeke
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 85
Default

I wouldn't mind if the plugins gets a proper GUI.

Simple GUI makes the plugins feel so much better. Some of the Stillwell plugins fits perfectly with Reaper https://www.stillwellaudio.com/ Plugins like 1973, Transient Monster & Event Horizon has a perfect style. Simple, but classy.
__________________
Check out my Book "How Bruce Springsteen's Music Saved My Life: Story of a Bullied Boy" | Next goal to get some music out.
zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 06:42 AM   #27
Masi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
Default OT: accessibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
All that is correct. The problem is during enhanced GUI development programmers simply FORGET about accessibility component.

My point in this thread was just reminding about the problem. For a reason I still do not understand, affected people are rarely sufficiently loud. Which developer on a request from a blind person will not add several lines? I guess many will do. But if developer is not aware, he will not.
I work as a programmer doing stuff for web (mostly server side coding) and I can tell that it is the same sad story here. The graphic designers don't care for the colour blind, the HTML implementors are too lazy to add proper markup for ARIA and the paying customer usually doesn't give a shit for accessibiliy.

Makes me mad when a new site goes online and they didn't get even the basic stuff right. But of course it is super-important that every pixel is where it should be on an iPhone.

Masi
Masi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 07:28 AM   #28
bobobo
Human being with feelings
 
bobobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,353
Default

Do you honestly think that this

makes better sound than this

?
bobobo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 08:00 AM   #29
Masi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobobo View Post
Do you honestly think that this

makes better sound than this

?
Who is the you? All we that want a change in the UI is that it fits better better visually with the rest of Reaper and looks a bit more pleasing to the eye. If looks were not important why do you think that Reaper has WALTER and folks created themes for it?

I'm really tired by getting told not to be fooled by the looks just because I believe in UXD (user experience design) done right. Both if the images shows how it should NOT be done.

Masi
Masi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 09:49 AM   #30
zeke
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 85
Default

Like the GUI takes something away from the program.
__________________
Check out my Book "How Bruce Springsteen's Music Saved My Life: Story of a Bullied Boy" | Next goal to get some music out.
zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 03:08 PM   #31
todd_r
Human being with feelings
 
todd_r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 844
Default

Even Schwa wanted a skin for it...

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=7795

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I wish I could make a set of interfaces to reacomp with fancy skins and four knobs on each one...
todd_r is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 04:09 PM   #32
bobobo
Human being with feelings
 
bobobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by todd_r View Post
Even Schwa wanted a skin for it...

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=7795
4 knobs aint enough for ReaComp f.i.

Oh wait , the last free output of Chris "airwindows" Johnson was pop, a 1, maybe 2 knobs comp with the best gui ever.

Last edited by bobobo; 09-22-2018 at 08:17 AM.
bobobo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 04:11 PM   #33
bobobo
Human being with feelings
 
bobobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Like the GUI takes something away from the program.
not from the program, but from your attention

music is all about ears and not eyes
bobobo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 04:14 PM   #34
bobobo
Human being with feelings
 
bobobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masi View Post
Who is the you? All we that want a change in the UI is that it fits better better visually with the rest of Reaper and looks a bit more pleasing to the eye. If looks were not important why do you think that Reaper has WALTER and folks created themes for it?

I'm really tired by getting told not to be fooled by the looks just because I believe in UXD (user experience design) done right. Both if the images shows how it should NOT be done.

Masi
This ReaComp mockup was made by White Tie. You can google who's that,
bobobo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2018, 05:17 PM   #35
AugerJ
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 476
Default

Speaking of compressors, how about a GUI with a graph, actually?


(the central element)
AugerJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2018, 01:23 AM   #36
Masi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ View Post
Speaking of compressors, how about a GUI with a graph, actually?
I thought that they were great, but nowadays I don't fancy them any more. A metering strip does the job for me, though I prefer a VU meter.

The only time I "need" a graph is when I want to have a clue about the setting of the "knee". That is when it can be adjusted.

But that's just taste. I won't whine if ReaComp will get a graph.

Masi
Masi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2018, 01:37 AM   #37
Masi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobobo View Post
This ReaComp mockup was made by White Tie. You can google who's that,
It still sucks. White Tie hase proven that he can do MUCH better. Probably just a tongue in cheek design for fun.

Masi
Masi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2018, 02:28 AM   #38
vitalker
Human being with feelings
 
vitalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,333
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerJ View Post
Speaking of compressors, how about a GUI with a graph, actually?
There is a Cockos JS plugin called General dynamics.
vitalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2018, 07:57 AM   #39
bobobo
Human being with feelings
 
bobobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masi View Post
It still sucks. White Tie hase proven that he can do MUCH better. Probably just a tongue in cheek design for fun.

Masi
of cause it sucks. indeed i think it's a proof of suck-ness of gui in general.
bobobo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2018, 10:22 AM   #40
Masi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobobo View Post
indeed i think it's a proof of suck-ness of gui in general.
You know that Reaper and all ist plugins have a GUI? Or did I just miss the irony (sarcasm) in your post.

Masi
Masi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.