Old 09-15-2017, 12:34 PM   #1
4140
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Default Cutting the reverb tail

What I like about reverb : how it makes vocals sound full and thick.
What I don't like: how they push the sound back in a mix.
I don't know much about the ins and outs of reverb but is there a way to use it to add fullness to the vocal with making it sound like it's in a big room? I thought cutting the tail or somehow gating the reverb might help, what are some trick you've discovered to use reverb to fill out a vocal while keeping it up front in a mix?
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:50 PM   #2
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Gated reverb is one way.

You might find that very short delays would suit you better. Like tape slap kind of stuff.

If your reverb gives you separate controls for size and decay, you can dial in big spaces with short tails.

And don't forget to EQ your reverb returns.
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post

You might find that very short delays would suit you better. Like tape slap kind of stuff.
Yep or leave the reverb add the delay and use less reverb.


Quote:
And don't forget to EQ your reverb returns.
Don't most reverbs have this already? or duh, it's irrelevant as your advice is the same.

Beyond that, and maybe it's just me but I have to have potentially far too much reverb on a vocal in a sufficiently busy mix in order for it to sound pushed back. My usual policy on reverb is to turn it up till you "hear reverb" then back it off until it just seems to disappear, then hit stop a few times to hear the tail - that tail, post stop is what I judge by which is usually still pretty loud if I barely tuck the reverb under obvious in the full mix.

I suppose the reverb times you are using play a part as well so shortening them at tad and/or choosing different types like plate instead of room or hall may help. You could probably also do some parameter modulation tricks but I'm not sure it's worth all that for what you want to accomplish aka that might just be a hammer searching for a nail.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:47 PM   #4
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Use an short or ambience reverb and another longer reverb for the mix or even leave out reverb altogether and use delays or combination therein.

How to guide:
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...e-reverb-pro-1

Google it and watch some videos on YT.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4140 View Post
What I don't like: how they push the sound back in a mix.
Pre-delay is the answer. If the verb starts too soon it gets in the way.

Quote:
Don't most reverbs have this already?
gotta eq after, and maybe before and possibly also de-ess before and sidechain compress after.
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:11 PM   #6
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...possibly also de-ess before and sidechain compress after.
I used to do all that, but then I found that low passing the reverb aux solves almost all of those problems.
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Judders View Post
I used to do all that, but then I found that low passing the reverb aux solves almost all of those problems.
I agree. That's an awful lot of work for a problem I don't see very often in real life. I pretty much (but not always) hear of all this extra processing need for simple things on the net.

No offense intended to anyone, just sounds like more hammers looking for nails. Many of my verbs truly don't need external processing even if it were needed.



Don't get me wrong, I'd not hesitate to low or high pass or process whatever my ears tell me... if needed, I'm just not seeing it as needed very often, then again, I'm typically in control of the source tracks.
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:21 PM   #8
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Some general tips:

- Use a pre-delay of around 20-40ms. Anything over ~40ms will sound like a discrete "tap" and is usually too long.

- Use an EQ to low-pass below ~4KHz. High frequency can often clutter a mix in an unnatural way, as higher frequencies usually get dampened considerably in a real acoustic space. Adjust to taste.

- Set tail lengths to match the beat of the song. Make the tails "breathe" with the music.

- Buy ALL the Valhalla reverbs. They're excellent and are my go-to algorithm based reverbs. https://valhalladsp.com/
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:29 PM   #9
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I do tend to find that convolution reverb often needs more finessing than a good algorithmic one (or dynamic convolution such as Nebula or LiquidSonics). I'm not sure why.
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
I do tend to find that convolution reverb often needs more finessing than a good algorithmic one (or dynamic convolution such as Nebula or LiquidSonics). I'm not sure why.
There's one more type - my living room I say that because I'm in the middle of a project and I have 25 foot ceilings and wood floors and am setting it up for initial testing tonight. That will consist of two equator D5s sending signal down the snake and either a stereo X/Y or spaced pair coming back in on two channels so I'll have a true send/receive reverb in Reaper - for as long as the wife will let me LOL.
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
There's one more type - my living room I say that because I'm in the middle of a project and I have 25 foot ceilings and wood floors and am setting it up for initial testing tonight. That will consist of two equator D5s sending signal down the snake and either a stereo X/Y or spaced pair coming back in on two channels so I'll have a true send/receive reverb in Reaper - for as long as the wife will let me LOL.
Nice!
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Old 09-16-2017, 07:42 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Gated reverb is one way.

You might find that very short delays would suit you better. Like tape slap kind of stuff.

If your reverb gives you separate controls for size and decay, you can dial in big spaces with short tails.

And don't forget to EQ your reverb returns.
Nice, big space with short tails sounds like what I'm after
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Old 09-16-2017, 07:46 AM   #13
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Thanks for all the helpful replies, awesome advice here
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Old 09-17-2017, 08:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4140 View Post
What I like about reverb : how it makes vocals sound full and thick.
What I don't like: how they push the sound back in a mix.
I don't know much about the ins and outs of reverb but is there a way to use it to add fullness to the vocal with making it sound like it's in a big room? I thought cutting the tail or somehow gating the reverb might help, what are some trick you've discovered to use reverb to fill out a vocal while keeping it up front in a mix?
One trick worth trying (called the Abbey Road trick):
Brefore the reverb add a high pass at 300-600 Hz, and a low pass at 2k to 4k. Tweak to taste. I found it really tightens up a reverb nicely.
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Old 09-17-2017, 05:27 PM   #15
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I send vocals to another track and add reverb there. Then I carve an EQ spot on the reverb for the vocals to sit up front and have the reverb come off the bottom and high.

I do the same for delay.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeroephonics View Post
Some general tips:

- Use a pre-delay of around 20-40ms. Anything over ~40ms will sound like a discrete "tap" and is usually too long.

- Use an EQ to low-pass below ~4KHz. High frequency can often clutter a mix in an unnatural way, as higher frequencies usually get dampened considerably in a real acoustic space. Adjust to taste.

- Set tail lengths to match the beat of the song. Make the tails "breathe" with the music.

- Buy ALL the Valhalla reverbs. They're excellent and are my go-to algorithm based reverbs. https://valhalladsp.com/
Nice, thanks. This helps.
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Old 10-17-2017, 09:21 PM   #17
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You could try compressing the send, before the verb, by 1 or 2 db. Also could compress the verb itself by 1db on picks.
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Old 10-17-2017, 09:28 PM   #18
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Tiled Room
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4140 View Post
What I don't like: how they push the sound back in a mix
This is useful if the singer is not so good... Also good to create a specific ambiance, tone, and/or style (e.g. Pearl Jam, The Cure. The Cult. etc.}.

You can always push the other stuff behind the vocal if you really need a healthy dose of reverb on the vocal?


But +1 for: pre-delay and choosing the right room, and/or using delay instead.

Also +1 on hitting the stop button to get it right...

So many good advice have been given above!
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:26 AM   #20
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Try this:
http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com/20...ad-reverb.html
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:55 AM   #21
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Try double tracking the vocal - the 'old way', not the 'copy/paste' method - to thicken the vocal*.
A little room reverb, maybe, just to take away the 'dryness', afterwards?

*EDIT: Just remembered a 'copy/paste' trick I tried once that avoided comb filtering effects... Copy the vocal, nudge the copy the appropriate distance and autotune ONE of them.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:03 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
One trick worth trying (called the Abbey Road trick):
Brefore the reverb add a high pass at 300-600 Hz, and a low pass at 2k to 4k. Tweak to taste. I found it really tightens up a reverb nicely.
I remember it being a really illuminating moment when I tried this - just how much it actually sounds like being in a real room is incredible.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by endorka View Post
I remember it being a really illuminating moment when I tried this - just how much it actually sounds like being in a real room is incredible.
I agree - the difference is amazing.
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
One trick worth trying (called the Abbey Road trick):
Brefore the reverb add a high pass at 300-600 Hz, and a low pass at 2k to 4k. Tweak to taste. I found it really tightens up a reverb nicely.
Would using a reverb that has an EQ built in do the same thing or does it need to be a separate eq plug in before the reverb?
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Old 10-19-2017, 03:42 PM   #25
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Remember that's not a hard and fast rule, just another technique.

Video demonstration:
https://www.lynda.com/Pro-Tools-tuto.../499453-4.html
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Old 10-19-2017, 04:02 PM   #26
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A lot of times you want a big sound so you pick a big verb (or a preset with "big" in the name : ) ). But it's pretty difficult to actually use a super huge room verb on a vocal in a pop or rock mix. What you may really want is a smaller space pushed later in time to be grand rather than intimate. Pre-delay for sure but also try getting close with only delays with no verb and then feeding only the delays into the smaller verb, no direct vocal, and rather than adjusting the verb decay longer for more tail bring up the feedback on any delay of at least 300 mill.

Sometimes the vocal delays/verbs that sound the least right alone sound best in the track, And the ones that are the greatest sounding soloed just don't make it in the mix.
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