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Old 06-22-2018, 09:21 AM   #81
brainwreck
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Lugnut, I'm a righty but my left hand is more developed. Go figure that one out. I'm guessing that it's mostly from playing guitar and bass.

But yea, I have been doing what you mentioned, observing my left hand grip and stroke and trying to match it with my right. Just a couple of practice sessions over a couple of days has already been helpful. What I noticed right away, along with my right hand feeling stiffer, is that my right hand stroke is much sloppier and slower than my left. So slowing down my right hand and focusing on a relaxed grip and stroke seems to be the way to go. It's really noticeable when doing steady double strokes with one hand. It's alot like bouncing a basketball where the ball returns back to the hand effortlessly (left hand) vs. bouncing a basketball that is low on air where the ball doesn't want to come back as easily and might return off center of the hand (right hand). So more precisely defined, it seems to be about finding the right grip and stroke alignment for natural stroke rebound. Everything feels good when my right hand gets in that zone where the stick easily rebounds inline with the stroke, rather than a sloppy eliptical movement.

And watching this video was really helpful in identifying what the problem is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN8UWHvoELs Notice how effortless his rebound is and how it is inline with the stroke. It's like a greased hinge. I am essentially doing what he described, playing in a wave from slow to fast but isolating my right hand and making sure that the rebound is effortless and inline with the stroke.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I'm using matched grip.
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:45 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Thanks minerman, I think I can find a use for that.

When I scripted Swirly Drums I added a set of radio switches for the Hi-Hat pedal operation. You
can operate these manually, but mainly they're for playing an e-kit, and it's keyed off of CC4.


The point of this is that the drummers can see where the hat pedal is at while playing their Hi-Hat.

From what I understand, the Hat pedal puts out a CC4 message depending on the position of the pedal.
I find the JSFX very helpful, Tod...The script you have for your drums looks like it'd be helpful too, in a very similar way to the JSFX I linked, it allows one to actually see what's going on, in real time...

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Thanks for pointing that out. Are you using that to dial in velocity settings for edrums, or are you using it in another way?
I use it as a "gauge" to actually see how soft or hard I'm hitting the pads...I have a 19" monitor mounted to my rack, right in front of me while I'm playing/recording, & keep the plugin open the whole time I'm doing so...

The arrow is pointing to the plugin on my monitor:
(My kit is actually 2 kits/modules, a Yamaha DTX532K & DTX400 combined )


If you watch the gif, the numbers that pop up in each lane (which is each kit piece, kick, snare, tom 1, etc), & that's the actual velocity the pads are being hit at, in real-time...

IE: If I keep getting "127" on the snare, I try to hit a little softer because I'm maxing the velocity out, which can kill the dynamics, depending on the song...



It's been a really, really big help for me because I can actually see how hard/soft I'm playing in real-time...

The fx is super-easy to customize to your setup too...It uses txt files for the mapping, kinda like midi editor drum maps, that you can add kit pieces, change the note #, change the kit piece's name, etc...He's included several Roland, Yamaha, etc keymaps, along with different drum vsti mappings (Addictive, Superior, etc) as well...

I've been programming midi drums for almost 10 years now, so I'm really familiar with each how vsti (Superior, SSD4, etc) reacts to the velocity going into it...So for example, I'm playing a rock song during a verse, I try to get the velocity on the snare from 100 to 110 or so...Then during a chorus or lead guitar part, I try to play a little harder, say 110 to 120...By not maxing out the velocity at 127, I still have a little "headroom" if I need it for a fill or such & I don't max out the dynamics...

Before I found this plugin, I literally had no idea how soft/hard I was playing until after the fact...I'm not a drummer at all, I've never attempted to record a real kit, ever, & a real kit doesn't have a velocity curve or anything of the sort like an e-kit, but this plugin has been very, very helpful for me personally...I still tweak/edit the midi a bit after I record it, but now, it's nothing like the tedious process I'd been doing for years, at all...

This is all of course, song dependent, & is in no way the "right" way to do any of this...It just happens to be the way I play/record my e-kit...As usual, YMMV, but again, the JSFX is a real help for me...
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:08 AM   #83
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I think that script would have been helpful to me when playing on keys or pads. But I feel pretty good about dynamics on this kit so far. I think it could be useful later for better dialing in velocity settings on kit pieces, though.

Also, I usually say that I'm not a drummer. But I'm dropping that excuse. I'm not a good drummer, yet.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:28 AM   #84
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Minerman: Dude, awesome! And so another guy with extensive drum sampler experience: So what's -your- fav and why?
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:41 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
I think that script would have been helpful to me when playing on keys or pads. But I feel pretty good about dynamics on this kit so far. I think it could be useful later for better dialing in velocity settings on kit pieces, though.

Also, I usually say that I'm not a drummer. But I'm dropping that excuse. I'm not a good drummer, yet.
It's all good dude, I openly say I'm not a drummer, I'm learning & have improved a lot, but I still don't consider myself a drummer...

As long as you're happy with your kit, that's all that matters dude...The thing that I really like about the script/plugin is I can monitor in real-time how I'm playing...It's a big help for me, & I get it that you feel you don't need it, IMO, you're one up (probably much, much more) on me & my playing...

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Originally Posted by fred garvin View Post
Minerman: Dude, awesome! And so another guy with extensive drum sampler experience: So what's -your- fav and why?
Superior Drummer 3...The ease of use for me is the main reason, & I think it sounds good too...I've slowly transitioned all my unfinished projects to use it exclusively because it's just easy to use for me...In my experience with drum vsti's, they all have strengths & weaknesses...You'll need to roll up your sleeves & dig into the features of them all in order to make your own judgement on them though...

I don't wanna de-rail brainwreck's thread, because me describing what I like or don't like about a particular drum vsti could be really long...
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Old 06-22-2018, 02:33 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minerman View Post
Superior Drummer 3...The ease of use for me is the main reason, & I think it sounds good too...I've slowly transitioned all my unfinished projects to use it exclusively because it's just easy to use for me...In my experience with drum vsti's, they all have strengths & weaknesses...You'll need to roll up your sleeves & dig into the features of them all in order to make your own judgement on them though...
I'd like ask you all some questions about all the controls that you have with your e-drum kits.

About 8 months ago I made a Kontakt script for a guy so he could play his Hi-Hat pedal on his e-kit.
This was for his own samples and it was all keyed off of CC4. Then just recently I did the same
for the developer of Swirly Drums and again, it was controlled by CC4.

So my first question, for most e-kits, does the Hat pedal put out CC4 depending on position, and
are they all 5 positions?

My next question is based on the fact that when we put SMDrums-2 together, I would very much like
to make it e-Drum-Kit friendly.

How many parts of the kit put out CC controllers and what kit pieces are they, as well as what CCs
are put out?

That's it for now, when the time comes I'll probably have more questions.

Quote:
I don't wanna de-rail brainwreck's thread, because me describing what I like or don't like about a particular drum vsti could be really long...
I don't think you're de-railing this thread minerman, there's been some very good information provided
here by everybody, and I'm very glad brainwreck started it.
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Old 06-22-2018, 04:56 PM   #87
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Ad far as I know only the hi-hat puts out control change messages, and cc4 seems to be standard. I'm not positive, but I think that each sampler treats the cc4 values however the developer wishes for switching the sample sets for hi-hat openness. It's something that I haven't really looked into. But now that you mentioned it, I will.
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Old 06-22-2018, 06:26 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Ad far as I know only the hi-hat puts out control change messages, and cc4 seems to be standard. I'm not positive, but I think that each sampler treats the cc4 values however the developer wishes for switching the sample sets for hi-hat openness. It's something that I haven't really looked into. But now that you mentioned it, I will.
Thanks brainwreck, I wondered about that. So really and truly it's important to create the right articulations that go with the various stages of a Hi-Hat pedal.

Considering the distance a real hi-hat pedal travels from just before where the top and bottom cymbals touch to where it's tight, I can't imagine it to be that much.

So developing a feel for the e-kit Hat pedal, probably takes quite a little practice.

Humm, I got to thinking, does the e-kit Hi-Hat put out a continuous stream of CC4? Or are the 5 levels decided by the kit itself?
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Old 06-22-2018, 07:20 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minerman View Post
It's all good dude, I openly say I'm not a drummer, I'm learning & have improved a lot, but I still don't consider myself a drummer...

As long as you're happy with your kit, that's all that matters dude...The thing that I really like about the script/plugin is I can monitor in real-time how I'm playing...It's a big help for me, & I get it that you feel you don't need it, IMO, you're one up (probably much, much more) on me & my playing...


Superior Drummer 3...The ease of use for me is the main reason, & I think it sounds good too...I've slowly transitioned all my unfinished projects to use it exclusively because it's just easy to use for me...In my experience with drum vsti's, they all have strengths & weaknesses...You'll need to roll up your sleeves & dig into the features of them all in order to make your own judgement on them though...

I don't wanna de-rail brainwreck's thread, because me describing what I like or don't like about a particular drum vsti could be really long...
Apologies minerman. I didn't mean to imply what I said about myself having a bearing on you and how you use the script. I probably could have claried that better in a separate statement.

And no, you aren't derailing anything. It's all relative, and probably most of us had no idea that script exists until you mentioned it.
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Old 06-22-2018, 07:26 PM   #90
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One thing that I notice on some sampled kits is the lack of a really tight hi-hat, to the point that the pitch of the hats changes. Some cool stuff can be played in that range from really tight to slightly tight on a real hi-hat.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:28 AM   #91
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Quote:
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Apologies minerman. I didn't mean to imply what I said about myself having a bearing on you and how you use the script. I probably could have claried that better in a separate statement.

And no, you aren't derailing anything. It's all relative, and probably most of us had no idea that script exists until you mentioned it.
No apology needed dude, it's all good...I still stand by my statement that I'm not really a drummer...I'd love to get to the spot where I could just record my drums without any editing, but it ain't gonna happen, especially with midi...But the script/JSFX really helps me get into a "ballpark" area with my playing, where without it, I'm really, honestly in the dark until after the fact...
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:28 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I'd like ask you all some questions about all the controls that you have with your e-drum kits.

About 8 months ago I made a Kontakt script for a guy so he could play his Hi-Hat pedal on his e-kit.
This was for his own samples and it was all keyed off of CC4. Then just recently I did the same
for the developer of Swirly Drums and again, it was controlled by CC4.

So my first question, for most e-kits, does the Hat pedal put out CC4 depending on position, and
are they all 5 positions?

My next question is based on the fact that when we put SMDrums-2 together, I would very much like
to make it e-Drum-Kit friendly.

How many parts of the kit put out CC controllers and what kit pieces are they, as well as what CCs
are put out?

That's it for now, when the time comes I'll probably have more questions.
Since I use SD3 for everything now, I'll show you what I know about the hi-hat response, which really isn't much...As far as the 5 positions, SD3 has 6...Now, on my module (Yamaha DTX502), I honestly don't know how many actual levels of openness it has, but I will let you in on what I do know...

This is the CC4 curve you can set/adjust in SD3 (it also supports CC's for positional sensing on snare, but my module doesn't support it, so I don't bother with it)...I have nothing tweaked here, this is just for reference...Brainwreck mentioned with some vsti's, it's hard to get a tight closed sound, you can adjust that here, making it harder or easier to get the really tight articulations by how hard you have to press your hh pedal with your foot...


My module allows me to adjust the openness of my hh, but it isn't very deep...


I will say my module does not have as much CC control/possibility as a Roland module does, & it does take a lot of getting used to...It's about impossible for me to be able to play all 5-6 levels of openness consistently, but it's mostly user error...

My hh pad is a dual zone pad (2 closed, 2 open, pedal chick/closed pedal & splash articulations), but it's hard to get the "in-between" levels of openness past the notes I mentioned...

Most of the editing I end up doing to the midi I record is hi-hat related...I usually just trigger either an open-ish note, or a closed-ish note while recording, then edit that after the fact (IE: a good drummer might slightly open his hh & play it slightly harder in the bar/bars leading up to a fill/transition)...

Another piece I edit a lot is the snare...My snare pad is 3-zone (center, rimshot & sidestick), but I change articulations for the snare here/there, & especially during a fill, to try to avoid the machine-gun thing, plus it adds a bit more realism...

SD3 hh & snare articulations:


Sorry for the long post, & I hope this may be helpful to you guys...Maybe some of you will end up helping me get a better handle on setting up my hi-hat to get a better response...I actually like to try to keep the e-kit pretty simple believe it or not, then edit the midi afterward to make it sound a bit more realistic...
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Old 06-23-2018, 02:21 PM   #93
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What I was talking about before on closed articulations lacking in samplers is what happens after closing a real hi-hat. As you press the pedal harder, the hi-hats begin to flex and change in pitch. But that is probably the least of issues with e-hats.
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Old 06-23-2018, 02:49 PM   #94
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I would imagine something like aftertouch would be good for something like ^that. On some stuff I have if I hold the pad then press, it begins muting the ride cymbal for example depending on how hard I hold and press. In your situation you'd want the pitch to increase some as you press harder.
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Old 06-23-2018, 03:49 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minerman View Post
Sorry for the long post, & I hope this may be helpful to you guys...Maybe some of you will end up helping me get a better handle on setting up my hi-hat to get a better response...I actually like to try to keep the e-kit pretty simple believe it or not, then edit the midi afterward to make it sound a bit more realistic...
No apologies necessary minerman, that's some great info and explains a lot. So it really
boils down to what the e-kits will put out themselves.

In Kontakt we can create all the possible articulations and I can script them to work in any
configuration that you drummers prefer. But it still all depends on what the e-kit can do,
which is totally understandable.

I can imagine how hard it might be to apply the various positions on the pedal, and I don't
blame you for doing it the way you're doing it.

So you're stuck with 3 positions on the snare, but speaking for myself, I think you've got
the most important ones.

Heh heh, I think I'm going to bookmark this thread.
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Old 06-23-2018, 05:23 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
No apologies necessary minerman, that's some great info and explains a lot. So it really
boils down to what the e-kits will put out themselves.

In Kontakt we can create all the possible articulations and I can script them to work in any
configuration that you drummers prefer. But it still all depends on what the e-kit can do,
which is totally understandable.

I can imagine how hard it might be to apply the various positions on the pedal, and I don't
blame you for doing it the way you're doing it.

So you're stuck with 3 positions on the snare, but speaking for myself, I think you've got
the most important ones.

Heh heh, I think I'm going to bookmark this thread.
Pretty sure you're dead-on with this all being module-dependent...I have 3 different Yamaha modules, a DTX502, DTX400 & older DTXpress...The 502 of course is the best I have, but the other 2 aren't bad really...

The way I do my drums now has came from a lot of trial/error, but I've simplified it down a lot, & it's the easiest route with the best results for me...

So in the end, it's a lot faster doing it this way now, even if I have to edit what I play with the e-kit...
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:35 PM   #97
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Hi,
Tod, the ekits I've used all send cc4 (default) when the pedal is moved.
Not sure about the dual cymbal hihat controllers tho.

Brain wreck, if 3 is like superior 2 then the tight closed goes up in pitch, as you described, but its just 2 pitches, but very convincing of the real thing.

Minerman, when you can, get yourself a Roland brain. You can set it so that you have to hit from above your head to get 127.... and still get super soft hits. I know how the yammys are. I have 3:-) tho 2 are old, the dynamics remain the same in the newer one. I have a dtxv2 a dtxpress and a multi 12. The multi12 I still use for percussion on my ac kit and my ekit.

Forgot about the dtxtreme in my closet that doesn't work anymore. It was the same.^^

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Old 06-24-2018, 10:32 AM   #98
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Some hi-hat questions:

Other than vertical movement of the cymbal, can any of you articulate a qualifiable playability/expresiveness difference between the fd-8/cy-5 and vh-11 hi-hat?

Are any of you using a hi-hat controller other than the vh-11 that you are happy with?

Edit: This thread pretty much answered my question on the fd-8/cy-5 vs. vh-11. https://www.vdrums.com/forum/general...pd7-to-a-vh-11

The concensus over there seems to be that the vh-11 is no more expressive. You just get some vertical movement from the vh-11, if you prefer that.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:34 AM   #99
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Brain wreck, if 3 is like superior 2 then the tight closed goes up in pitch, as you described, but its just 2 pitches, but very convincing of the real thing.^
Does it switch between those two states, or does the pitch gradually transition? The transistion is what I was trying to describe above. When you really press down on a real hi-hat pedal and gradually let up to a relaxed closed state, there is a gradual pitch transition.

Somewhat related to that topic, I notice that addictive doesn't really have a tight tip articulation. The closed tip artciulation sounds a bit loose, not much different than the closed edge articulation.
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Old 06-24-2018, 12:21 PM   #100
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Hi,
Minerman, when you can, get yourself a Roland brain. You can set it so that you have to hit from above your head to get 127.... and still get super soft hits. I know how the yammys are. I have 3:-) tho 2 are old, the dynamics remain the same in the newer one. I have a dtxv2 a dtxpress and a multi 12. The multi12 I still use for percussion on my ac kit and my ekit.

Forgot about the dtxtreme in my closet that doesn't work anymore. It was the same.^^
Thanks for the recommendation, but I'm all in with my Yamaha e-drum gear & drum software dude, I have a small fortune tied up in all of it already...It would be nice to have a Roland module, but I'd probably have to buy Roland pads/cymbals too, & again, I'm all in with what I have...
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:15 PM   #101
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To be honest, I wish that the roland modules had user customizable velocity envelopes rather than preset curves. Velocity response is certainly much better than with finger pads, but it still leaves something to be desired. Fortunately, when triggering plugins, there are velocity transformation plugins and/or settings in the samplers themselves.
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:38 PM   #102
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Does it switch between those two states, or does the pitch gradually transition? The transistion is what I was trying to describe above. When you really press down on a real hi-hat pedal and gradually let up to a relaxed closed state, there is a gradual pitch transition.
Hi brainwreck, this is taking place as you continue to hit the hat right? As opposed to hitting the hat once and letting
up or pressing down on it.

Quote:
Somewhat related to that topic, I notice that addictive doesn't really have a tight tip articulation. The closed tip artciulation sounds a bit loose, not much different than the closed edge articulation.
Yeah, there are only two ways I know of to get a realistic sound for a high hat to vary from loose to really tight and
have the pitch with it. One would be to create enough articulations that you could crossfade through as you go from
loose to tight or vice versa

The other way would be to fake it, using an ahd envelope that could control a loose to a tight sound, while at the same
time applying a slight pitch to it.

Either way, the hi-hat pedal would have to put out a continuous CC4 from 0 to 127. Actually the only way it makes sense
to me is that it would put out CC4 (0 to 127), that way the developer can be creative to supply articulations that worked
best for the drummer.

Maybe minerman mentioned something about this, whether CC4 is a contious 0 to 127. but as I look back I can't find it.

Quote:
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To be honest, I wish that the roland modules had user customizable velocity envelopes rather than preset curves. Velocity response is certainly much better than with finger pads, but it still leaves something to be desired. Fortunately, when triggering plugins, there are velocity transformation plugins and/or settings in the samplers themselves.
Regarding velocity, yeah, if you're using VSTis for drums, you can get much more control with the VSTi.

When you say velocity envelope curves brainwreck, are you talking about linear and various parabolic curves, or are you
talking about something else?
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Old 06-24-2018, 05:02 PM   #103
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it never ever comes out right. That's my experience.lol
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:27 PM   #104
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Todd, I'll respond later, from a computer. I hate typing from a phone.

Jason, what have you tried?
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:39 PM   #105
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Quote:
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Hi brainwreck, this is taking place as you continue to hit the hat right? As opposed to hitting the hat once and letting
up or pressing down on it.



Yeah, there are only two ways I know of to get a realistic sound for a high hat to vary from loose to really tight and
have the pitch with it. One would be to create enough articulations that you could crossfade through as you go from
loose to tight or vice versa

The other way would be to fake it, using an ahd envelope that could control a loose to a tight sound, while at the same
time applying a slight pitch to it.

Either way, the hi-hat pedal would have to put out a continuous CC4 from 0 to 127. Actually the only way it makes sense
to me is that it would put out CC4 (0 to 127), that way the developer can be creative to supply articulations that worked
best for the drummer.

Maybe minerman mentioned something about this, whether CC4 is a contious 0 to 127. but as I look back I can't find it.



Regarding velocity, yeah, if you're using VSTis for drums, you can get much more control with the VSTi.

When you say velocity envelope curves brainwreck, are you talking about linear and various parabolic curves, or are you
talking about something else?
Todd, yes. When you press the hi-hat pedal, hit it continuously, and continue to apply more pressure to the pedal, there is a pitch change. Same goes as you loosen foot pressure from the pedal. It's just one of a bunch of little things that is better about real drums, to me.

More important than that though is what Toontrack calls 'transmuting', which I guess is a joining of 'transistional muting'. Most drum samplers provide articulations for levels of openness, but most of them do not provide a means for hi-hat sounds to transition from a closed state to an open state and the reverse. I mean, in most drum samplers if you hit a closed hat and THEN open the hat, you only get a closed sound, NOT that sizzly sound of the hats opening up AFTER the hit. And when you hit a closed hat and begin to close the hats, you don't get that gradual transistional sizzle toward a closed sound; you get an open hit sound and then a final closed sound when the pedal is fully closed, but not that good stuff inbetween. Ezdrummer does do transmuting, but it's flakey, not having settings to dial it in. And Superior has it, likely with parameters that aren't available in Ezdrummer.

On CC4, I think my module is putting out 0 to 90. I'll have to take a look again.

On velocity envelopes, I should unravel that a bit, because I'm talking about two different things, and I have something else in mind as well.

Most MIDI devices and samplers provide preset velocity 'curves'. Some third party plugins provide user editable points, rather than fixed points for adjusting the 'curve'. For example, in Addictive there are only 2 adjustable points, where other plugins provide more. It also seems like I have used a velocity plugin that allows for adding points. But all of this curve business is pretty rough and unintuitive for making fine adjustments.

What I'm thinking of is something along the line of a velocity learner. Say this learner plugin provides a visual bar of a given velocity level, like what we see in a MIDI editor, and it asks the player to play some hits at that velocity. If the player feels that there is a discrepency between how hard he is playing and the sample output, he can indicate 'too soft' or 'too hard' and the velocity learner plugin will adjust accordingly. So the player would step through some determined number of velocity levels, as outlined above, until a complete 'curve' is formed. Obviously some averaging would need to be worked out for those velocities which fall between the 'learned' velocity levels. I think that something like this would get much closer at dialing in a realistic velocity response than simple preset 'curves' or dragging around rough and vague points along a curve. And it could involve as many velocity levels as the player wants to step through. I have some other ideas about how this could be improved, but that is the general idea.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:57 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
it never ever comes out right. That's my experience.lol
Up to the point before trying an e-kit, that is also my experience. Whether the e-kit will make the difference is yet to be determined. Before the e-kit, I have tried keys, pads, programming, and combinations of keys/programming and pads/programming, as well as triggering the kick using a kick pedal and hi-hats using the expression pedal input on my keyboard. All of it has been pretty blah in comparison to playing a real kit. So far the e-kit has some quirks to adjust to, but it is a much better experience than the alternatives. I just don't know yet if it will be close enough to the experience of playing a real kit. It definitely has it's pros and cons, and the major pro for me is low volume. The biggest adjustment for me so far has been playing the hi-hat, where a real hi-hat just does what you expect. You just work at it and get better at having finer control over it. The e-hat so far has been less so. It often feels awkward, but I'm trying to adjust to it.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:47 AM   #107
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Hi,

BW..on my module you can set it to 0 - 90 or 0-127. I believe its to avoid the super tight you were mentioning. Superior just switches to the higher/tighter pitch articulation. In practice it sounds very close to the intent.
As far as setting up the curves etc, there are many variables. My approach has evolved to where I get the module to respond as natural as I can get it using internal sounds with only changing the modules various velocity/curve/sensetivity parameters.
Then leave it! Make any changes nessacary in the vst after that. This is because even in the same vst different kit pieces sometimes require different setups. So much more easier management wise than trying to do it from the brain.

Miner man...I hear ya..but I've always found the Roland brains will use just about all different pads out there...tho I haven't tried any of the newer Yamaha pads. I have a tp80 dual zone..kinda old:-)
But the reverse is not true..say Roland pads on a yammy. I would never do it if I couldn't use the stuff I already have.
I'm not a gear snob..whatever works..but I've felt the pain of trying to get a wide (natural) dynamic range out of the Yamaha stuff( and others) for years and when I read your post I felt that pain:-)

Hi hats are the hardest thing to get close in an ekit. Great samples,programing, and solid midi output can get you to ~ 75-95% close to real..IMHO... The rest would be post editing midi data.

BW...the procedure I use for dialing in the brains individuals sesetivity at first is to do by sight. Your module should have some type of meter that displays how hard you're hitting a pad. Turn off the volume and play a beat on the pads. Try to just use it as a practice kit. Then kepping that feel of how dynamic ..say..your snare hits are. Now hitting just the snare watch the meter and adjust settings until you see the widest/smoothest meter movements. Do all pads. Now play the different pads trying to stay at one "volume". The meter should show all the pads the same.
Now, turn up the volume on the vst and adjust the pieces curves/other values there. Or in any software you are using.

One more thing..just a general deal. Positional sensing. Some ppl say ...it doesn't matter. Well, its a player controlled midi output expression. So, for ex, my 1990s rubber dual zone pd9 ride pad plugged into a module that does PS on the ride input,can put out a 0-127 cc value as I play the HEAD part of the pad. From inside edge to middle. I use that and send that info the Jeffos awesome hihat js. He originally intended it so some controlers that only put out 2 midi note could put out up to 5 when different value CCS are sent. I have it so at the very center it puts out my bell note. 3 way ride ( ride crash on rim sensor) ride on head edge and bell cente....for the price of an old pd9 pad.:-)
Does one need pos on snare? Well, if playing with the edge sounds of the head of a snare on an ac kit is a thing for your music...well. But I have mine turned off ATM. Just a personal thing. Some Roland modules and some Yamaha modules have pos. The older hi end rolands have snare and ride pos. The super expensive new Rowlands have it on all inputs. We all will have flying cars by the time I'll be able to afford it! But, one has to admit, they're on another level. Not so much Internal sound wise but taking the science of edrums to other levels. IMHO.

Geez I love this kinda talk!:-)

Edit...the TD 10 I used to have..shouldn't have sold it...had pos also on tom heads. The TD 20 exp I have now has on tom rims, and snare rim. But with my 120 snare pad rim position is not precise/consistant enough. Supposedly the 125 is better. I played a td50 kit at the store and it was real good in this regard. From dixieland short stick rim shots to solid 2 and 4s post mid stick rim shots. The td50 snare and ride connect with a digital cable. Doesn't really matter if the internal sounds are great or not. That kinda output coupled with when sample libraries have ALL the articulations of a ac kit = faith full recreation. And as soon as every part of the system uses more than 0-127... Maybe then we have true..electric drums.:-)

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Old 06-25-2018, 07:28 AM   #108
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Sorry..minerman,
I forgot to say what an awesome setup u have. Have heard many goodthings about those modules and a buddy of mine ggot rid of his vdrum kit and got all cellular pads like your snare. He loves it.
What hihat controller is that? Also awesome.
I now remember that js you show..the author included some of your suggestions I recall and I made a mental note to check it out..and quickly forgot:-)
And the location of your monitor..brilliant.

Guido
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:40 AM   #109
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I did some monkeying around in Ezdrummer 2 yesterday with my e-kit after having played in Addictive exclusively since I got the kit. I don't like the limitations (lack of settings for e-kit, no snare bottom level control, fixed effects, etc.), but the default velocity response is very good. Addictive 2 is way behind in the area of velocity response, even after somewhat dialing it in, where there are no settings for velocity response in Ezdrummer 2. It seems that Toontrack is doing some sort of velocity conditioning that isn't present in Addictive.

And after I realized what was going on with the hi-hat response (hard switching between closed, 1/4 open, etc.), I'm surprised by the hi-hat transmuting stuff, assuming there is a way to get a continuous transition rather than a hard switched transition. Addictive has nothing like this. As one example, in Addictive if you hit an open hit, wait some time, then close the pedal, the hat sound stays open. Or hit a closed hat in Addictive, and open the hat (waiting ANY amount of time), and the sound stays closed. And that is beside the point of there being a complete lack of hi-hat transition in Addictive.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:57 AM   #110
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Lugnut, positional sensing is really cool stuff. But yea, at the moment the price different between e-kits that have it and don't is insanely high. I'm guessing that what is essentially going on is scanning of multiple piezos (3 of them it seems), determining which is hottest, and sending CC messages accordingly. In other words, a couple of bucks more of hardware and a little more complex software = huge price difference.
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:06 AM   #111
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I would like to try one of those Yamaha cellular silicone pads. Everything that I have read on them is positive in comparison to mesh heads. But if it is only about feel of the striking surface, mesh heads feel fine to me. But it is always that way, it seems. Ignorance is bliss.
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:12 AM   #112
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Also, I put a CY-8 cymbal in the hi-hat position last night. I like the bigger playing area much more than the CY-5. It's really easy to accidentally move between tip and edge on the CY-5. I think the CY-5 might get moved to the ride position until I get another CY-8 for hi-hat.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:48 AM   #113
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Hi,
Sounds like its going good for ya brainwreck!
What you have now is eons over what we geezers started with! But I think you'll find that every 5 yrs or so you'll upgrade the brain, and keep the rest. Or/And add on...its endless, until the money runs out.:-)
But you've got a solid ekit there.IMHO.

Superior/bfd3/slate4 I've played on them all...I only have superior 2, ....mostly on my friends kit at rehearsal. They all have more editing than the ezdrummer/additive. In superior 2 I use the music city hats mostly..a great set of 15".

Great tip about the cy8....here it goes again....I'll try and find one used.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:55 AM   #114
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First of all I want to thank all of you for your discussion and input, it will help me a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Todd, yes. When you press the hi-hat pedal, hit it continuously, and continue to apply more pressure to the pedal, there is a pitch change. Same goes as you loosen foot pressure from the pedal. It's just one of a bunch of little things that is better about real drums, to me.
Yeah, that's what I I thought you probably meant.

Quote:
More important than that though is what Toontrack calls 'transmuting', which I guess is a joining of 'transistional muting'. Most drum samplers provide articulations for levels of openness, but most of them do not provide a means for hi-hat sounds to transition from a closed state to an open state and the reverse. I mean, in most drum samplers if you hit a closed hat and THEN open the hat, you only get a closed sound, NOT that sizzly sound of the hats opening up AFTER the hit. And when you hit a closed hat and begin to close the hats, you don't get that gradual transistional sizzle toward a closed sound; you get an open hit sound and then a final closed sound when the pedal is fully closed, but not that good stuff inbetween. Ezdrummer does do transmuting, but it's flakey, not having settings to dial it in. And Superior has it, likely with parameters that aren't available in Ezdrummer.
"Transmuting", that's an interesting word. As I mentioned above, I think there are really only two ways to do this, one with samples,
the other using envelopes and EQ. And maybe a combination of the two ways.

One thing that's very important in trying to emulate the "sizzle" to "Closed, would be the number of CCs that are sent out during that
transition. It would be great to know, or at least have an idea of what that number would be. This would be especially very important
to know for someone who was trying to design and fashion a working case scenario of a hat going from sizzle to closed, and vice versa.

Quote:
On CC4, I think my module is putting out 0 to 90. I'll have to take a look again.
Yeah, let me know, I would think you can adjust this.

Quote:
On velocity envelopes, I should unravel that a bit, because I'm talking about two different things, and I have something else in mind as well.

Most MIDI devices and samplers provide preset velocity 'curves'. Some third party plugins provide user editable points, rather than fixed points for adjusting the 'curve'. For example, in Addictive there are only 2 adjustable points, where other plugins provide more. It also seems like I have used a velocity plugin that allows for adding points. But all of this curve business is pretty rough and unintuitive for making fine adjustments.

What I'm thinking of is something along the line of a velocity learner. Say this learner plugin provides a visual bar of a given velocity level, like what we see in a MIDI editor, and it asks the player to play some hits at that velocity. If the player feels that there is a discrepency between how hard he is playing and the sample output, he can indicate 'too soft' or 'too hard' and the velocity learner plugin will adjust accordingly. So the player would step through some determined number of velocity levels, as outlined above, until a complete 'curve' is formed. Obviously some averaging would need to be worked out for those velocities which fall between the 'learned' velocity levels. I think that something like this would get much closer at dialing in a realistic velocity response than simple preset 'curves' or dragging around rough and vague points along a curve. And it could involve as many velocity levels as the player wants to step through. I have some other ideas about how this could be improved, but that is the general idea.
Okay, there are basically two parameters that affect velocity, at least that's how it is in Kontakt, "Curves" and "Intensity". Although these are
separate, they actually work together and in my notion, for drums the Intensity is the most important.

The "Curve" of the line going from 1 to 127, is the level from minimum to maximum, that each CC number puts out. In Kontakt this line can be
achieved either by drawing the curve in, much like the CC events in Reaper's midi CC lanes, or select points on an envelope, like the automation
in Reaper's arrange area, there are 127 events.



"Intensity", which is measured in percentages (0% to 100%), controls the relative levels going from minimum to maximum, minimum being the
level of the sample with the lowest volume and maximum the sample with highest volume. If the samples are normalized, or there is only one
sample, minimum and maximum are the same level. I did a test of this some time ago and you can see the results in the picture below.

I used a 440hz sine wave for this test, normalized to 0.0dB so that at a velocity of 127 I could adjust the maximum at 0.0dB for the test.


The Intensity is very easy to script, but the Curve is much more complex. I personally only use linear curves for drums, but that's mainly because
it's difficult for me to judge the velocities I'm getting from my keyboard and with curves I think it's something you have to feel and hear, to set it up
in a meaningful way.

As I mentioned the Curve is more complex which makes it much more difficult to script for user input. A short while back I scripted a piano for a
developer and I added a velocity curve to that. I set it up with a menu along with a knob to control the curve that went from -50 to +50 with 0 being
linear.



I'm going to have to research this out to see what all can be done with the Kontakt curves.

Thanks brainwreck.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:18 PM   #115
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Focusing on hi-hat stuff:

The TD-11 module is pretty limited on hi-hat settings. So making hi-hat settings in the samplers themselves, what Addictive 2 does for openness is to just grab the CC4 messages and provides for setting openness ranges by dragging some handles up and down. In Ezdrummer 2, the openness ranges are fixed, but it has the transmuting feature that Addictive 2 doesn't have. But the transmuting sounds weird because it noticeably switches between openness ranges rather than smoothly transitioning. But there is a noticeable switching between openness ranges in both samplers. I wonder if Superior provides for a smoother transition between openness ranges.

I originally thought that the FD-8 pedal is touchy in moving between openness ranges, but since a sampler is treating cc4 messages however it wants, transitiioning between openness ranges is really down to the sampler it seems.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:39 PM   #116
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Todd, as far as I can find, the TD-11 only outputs values 0-90 for CC4, with no way to change it. And that is likely why I'm not getting a very closed tip hi-hat sound from Addictive, which I also noticed I am not getting from Ezdrummer. I hope that isn't the case, but I have been through all the menus in the TD-11, and I see no setting for changing it.

Now I'm wondering if someone has made a control change message transformation plugin.
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:00 PM   #117
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Seems like a classic case of artificial limitation. No? I mean, is there some good reason to limit CC values to max 90?
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:06 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Todd, as far as I can find, the TD-11 only outputs values 0-90 for CC4, with no way to change it. And that is likely why I'm not getting a very closed tip hi-hat sound from Addictive, which I also noticed I am not getting from Ezdrummer. I hope that isn't the case, but I have been through all the menus in the TD-11, and I see no setting for changing it.

Now I'm wondering if someone has made a control change message transformation plugin.
Heh heh, you popped in while I was typing.

So in the case of CC4 you're missing 37 values, kind of hard to pick up even with a script.

If you can test your hat pedal to see what CCs are being sent in relation to the pedal position,
that would be a big help in figuring out what you can do. I would think the most important values
would be those values from very tight, to the physical position of the pedal where you would like
the sizzle to start.

Actually, once you've completed this test, you may find that 0 to 90 might not be so bad after all.

EDIT: You should be able to test the pedal with ReaControlMidi.
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:21 PM   #119
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Quote:
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EDIT: You should be able to test the pedal with ReaControlMidi.
ReacontrolMIDI is how I read the cc4 values from the td-11. The values are fixed to a range of 0-90 (for no apparent reason). So if a drum sampler is expecting that range of missing values and doesn't provide some sort of compensation for it, then you just don't get the samples that are mapped to those cc4 values (such as tightly closed hi-hats). And even if the sampler can compensate for it, a large chunk of the controller resolution is being tossed out.
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:28 PM   #120
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FWIW I read and applied the article on V-Drums site regarding the FD8 pedal. Got a LOT better performance out of mine. That coupled with the major improvements in both EZD2 and SD3 HiHat treatment have made me a less awful e-drummer. And my expert drummer pal commented on how improved the feel of playing SD3 kits via my elderly TD8 kit with all mesh heads was. Love positional playing ( snare only right now) & wish I could afford to go to a newer fancier module, but the TD8 & TD10 were and still are prerty dern good.
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