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Old 12-19-2018, 11:28 AM   #1
puke
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Default Getting depressed,. Mixing down on analog desk

I am fairly "green" when it comes to DAWs. (I have a 2" machine sitting in my garage,..and used to have two of them..so I am out of my element here). I have just found out that in addition to the need to use tape to get your drums just right,.. I have also learned from a few trusted friends,..that I'm not going to ever be very close to happy if I don't mix down in my normal analogue console and outboard gear,.. using digital plugins only when needed. So,. I am OK with that. My big question is,..I assume I am going to mix down to a digital master. And I have no idea how to do this. I have a steinberg interface,. (as well as a second I can use if I need more than 8 inputs at a time). If I have 16 tracks, for example, that I want to mix down. Obviously they need to get to the first 16 channels of my mixing desk. Do the 1/4 inch inputs on my steinberg somehow magically turn into outputs??? I am at such a loss here. I mean,..what do I hardwire to my tape returns to on my mixing desk? And, the bigger question is: If I am not mixing down to a tape master (some say I should...I have a studer), where do I "send" my stereo mix to if I am using 16 steinberg channels to reproduce the 16 tracks I am mixing down... ANd, of course,.. the biggest gobbldiegook of them all,.. if I am mixing all this down to two sends,..CAN I CAPTURE THEM BACK INTO REAPER AS I AM PLAYING BACK THE TRACKS I AM MIXING? IT'S HARD TO GET MY HEAD AROUND THIS. Most guys say just mix it digitally and then later on send the master mix to the studer and back again.
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Old 12-19-2018, 11:32 AM   #2
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I am fairly "green" when it comes to DAWs. (I have a 2" machine sitting in my garage,..and used to have two of them..so I am out of my element here). I have just found out that in addition to the need to use tape to get your drums just right,.. I have also learned from a few trusted friends,..that I'm not going to ever be very close to happy if I don't mix down in my normal analogue console and outboard gear,.. using digital plugins only when needed. So,. I am OK with that. My big question is,..I assume I am going to mix down to a digital master. And I have no idea how to do this. I have a steinberg interface,. (as well as a second I can use if I need more than 8 inputs at a time). If I have 16 tracks, for example, that I want to mix down. Obviously they need to get to the first 16 channels of my mixing desk. Do the 1/4 inch inputs on my steinberg somehow magically turn into outputs??? I am at such a loss here. I mean,..what do I hardwire to my tape returns to on my mixing desk? And, the bigger question is: If I am not mixing down to a tape master (some say I should...I have a studer), where do I "send" my stereo mix to if I am using 16 steinberg channels to reproduce the 16 tracks I am mixing down... ANd, of course,.. the biggest gobbldiegook of them all,.. if I am mixing all this down to two sends,..CAN I CAPTURE THEM BACK INTO REAPER AS I AM PLAYING BACK THE TRACKS I AM MIXING? IT'S HARD TO GET MY HEAD AROUND THIS. Most guys say just mix it digitally and then later on send the master mix to the studer and back again.
If Mutt Lange can be happy in the digital world anyone can be happy. The trick is learning what made the old school equipment get that sound. Tape provided high-frequency roll off in compression and hiss and wow and flutter and analog delays had high-frequency and low-frequency filters that made the repeats diminish and tone quality as they echoed away. You can reproduce that in the digital domain with a little experience.

Another important factor is having a very musical equalizer to EQ with. The softube Trident a range is very cool for that. So yeah if Mutt Lange can do it and make a ACDC, Shania Twain and Def Leppard among others multi-millionaires with incredible sounding albums then you should be able to be happy with that sound quality too.
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Old 12-19-2018, 11:46 AM   #3
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So far, the handful of friends I still know in the "rock" music industry...still use tape for basic tracks. And still use analog soundpaths for final mixing. I still have about 30 limiters,.. ALL of which are of the types most people "wished" they had. I've even got the original Nightpro EQ (and yes, it was worth every penny of it's 3500 dollar price tag 25 or 30 years ago.) I have only one original U67 (which I know means nothing now that they're making it again). With all of my doodling in my DAW (and some friends' daws) I'm never feeling like anything is quite right. And I always get the same answer... Mix on a real mixing desk,.. and Keep the tape machines around if you need them. I'm really trying to resist resurrecting my JH24, because it weighs as much as a harley. But I could probably live with the small studer I have for getting the tape sound on a final mix (until I find out I can' live without the 24.). It's been so long since I've really tried to do something besides doodle. I think I expect more from digital that I will get. When I see folks wanting a drum machine and then use the "stereo out" to get the "analog summing"...I guess that should be the biggest hint of any that I need to re-wire my analog board into my sound area (I am basically retired from music,..but just can't keep my hands off trying to make something now and then).

By the way,..If I recall,..(OTHER THAN FOR THE SNARE DRUM,..) we didn't ever really NEED equalization to the sound..even when NEARLY done,..and at that point,..certainly there was not much "missing'. At that point we might use a little EQ. But, for the most part, Compressors and limiters did the trick. Rock guitars, as long as they were the old traditional "turn the amp up all the way" guitars,..rarely needed limiting or anything else,..(other than possibly on an amp where the tubes were biased a little cold and you would get that fake "high buzz" and fake "low" that didn't sound right (a limiter would remove that much easier and with less trouble than an EQ, even though the correct solution is to have your tubes biased plenty hot...tubes were expensive back then). Most drums were OK as long as they were tuned super low,. Bass guitar was ok as long as the amp was cranked like the guitars. Usually with singing,..usually it took some doodling to find the right limiter or compressor... but took much less doodling around if the singer could double his or her tracks manually.

And I just realized that I can probably use 8 outputs and inputs simultaneously,. But I still haven't figured out when I mix down on an analog console using reaper,.. Do I just set two channels up to record the mixdown on? I'm starting to think that would be it.

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Old 12-19-2018, 12:01 PM   #4
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So far, the handful of friends I still know in the "rock" music industry...still use tape for basic tracks. And still use analog soundpaths for final mixing. I still have about 30 limiters,.. ALL of which are of the types most people "wished" they had. I've even got the original Nightpro EQ (and yes, it was worth every penny of it's 3500 dollar price tag 25 or 30 years ago.) I have only one original U67 (which I know means nothing now that they're making it again). With all of my doodling in my DAW (and some friends' daws) I'm never feeling like anything is quite right. And I always get the same answer... Mix on a real mixing desk,.. and Keep the tape machines around if you need them. I'm really trying to resist resurrecting my JH24, because it weighs as much as a harley. But I could probably live with the small studer I have for getting the tape sound on a final mix (until I find out I can' live without the 24.). It's been so long since I've really tried to do something besides doodle. I think I expect more from digital that I will get. When I see folks wanting a drum machine and then use the "stereo out" to get the "analog summing"...I guess that should be the biggest hint of any that I need to re-wire my analog board into my sound area (I am basically retired from music,..but just can't keep my hands off trying to make something now and then).

By the way,..If I recall,..(OTHER THAN FOR THE SNARE DRUM,..) we didn't ever really NEED equalization to the sound..even when NEARLY done,..and at that point,..certainly there was not much "missing'. At that point we might use a little EQ. But, for the most part, Compressors and limiters did the trick. Rock guitars, as long as they were the old traditional "turn the amp up all the way" guitars,..rarely needed limiting or anything else,..(other than possibly on an amp where the tubes were biased a little cold and you would get that fake "high buzz" and fake "low" that didn't sound right (a limiter would remove that much easier and with less trouble than an EQ, even though the correct solution is to have your tubes biased plenty hot...tubes were expensive back then). Most drums were OK as long as they were tuned super low,. Bass guitar was ok as long as the amp was cranked like the guitars. Usually with singing,..usually it took some doodling to find the right limiter or compressor... but took much less doodling around if the singer could double his or her tracks manually.
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Old 12-19-2018, 12:05 PM   #5
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Hi puke. I hope the situation is not really depressing. I am sure I am not the only one thinking it sounds pretty cool to have some quality analogue gear available. Anyhow I am old enough to have used lots of tape back in the day but I think I mostly switched over fairly abruptly so have only limited experience of what you are trying to do. Anyhow until others weigh in with more direct experience I offer these thoughts.
It sounds like Coachz is trying to guide you away from the outboard route entirely but if I get this right you have 16 tracks going into a desk. The desk will I presume output a stereo pair. If you feed that into the Steinberg then that mix could be captured digitally. Arguably you should use the highest recording resolution you have available (24 bit etc...) so you end up with a very faithful digital recording of an essentially analogue signal path. Isn't that what people have already suggested. It seems to me you may have a different idea of the signal path altogether, perhaps one in which a track is sent into REAPER and the returned to the desk? Maybe a sketch would help?

Oh just read that you want to be able to use digital plug-ins when needed? I am not sure what you mean by this. The simplest way to use digital FX when mixing would be to get all the tracks into the digital domain, then mix in REAPER. The resulting stereo pair could be sent back through the Studer I guess although you may find you don't need to or that satisfactory plug-ins are available that would do the job in REAPER.

Am I way off beam here? I seem to just have restated your question!
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Old 12-19-2018, 12:10 PM   #6
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Hi puke. I hope the situation is not really depressing. I am sure I am not the only one thinking it sounds pretty cool to have some quality analogue gear available. Anyhow I am old enough to have used lots of tape back in the day but I think I mostly switched over fairly abruptly so have only limited experience of what you are trying to do. Anyhow until others weigh in with more direct experience I offer these thoughts.
It sounds like Coachz is trying to guide you away from the outboard route entirely but if I get this right you have 16 tracks going into a desk. The desk will I presume output a stereo pair. If you feed that into the Steinberg then that mix could be captured digitally. Arguably you should use the highest recording resolution you have available (24 bit etc...) so you end up with a very faithful digital recording of an essentially analogue signal path. Isn't that what people have already suggested. It seems to me you may have a different idea of the signal path altogether, perhaps one in which a track is sent into REAPER and the returned to the desk? Maybe a sketch would help?

Oh just read that you want to be able to use digital plug-ins when needed? I am not sure what you mean by this. The simplest way to use digital FX when mixing would be to get all the tracks into the digital domain, then mix in REAPER. The resulting stereo pair could be sent back through the Studer I guess although you may find you don't need to or that satisfactory plug-ins are available that would do the job in REAPER.

Am I way off beam here? I seem to just have restated your question!
There's absolutely nothing wrong with analog but the purists who think the only way to get there is with analog I think are very misguided. Some of the Greatest Albums have been done digitally and rival and even exceed many analog gold standards. You can do it in either Realm but those who think that analog is the only way to go I think are going to create a lot more pain dealing with all that Hardware.
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Old 12-19-2018, 01:03 PM   #7
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So far, the handful of friends I still know in the "rock" music industry...still use tape for basic tracks.
Key word, handful.

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By the way,..If I recall,..(OTHER THAN FOR THE SNARE DRUM,..) we didn't ever really NEED equalization to the sound..even when NEARLY done,..and at that point,..certainly there was not much "missing'.
There's nothing missing and a well-recorded most anything will sound like it should sound regardless with proper skills. I can tell you one thing with absolute certainty, tape hides a lot of sins. The only thing missing is tape doing part of the job for you.
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Old 12-19-2018, 03:06 PM   #8
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You jostled my memory a bit. There were some times that I recall (call it bad vocal technique or whatever)..that we REALLY could have used digital compressor/limiters. There was one singer that we strapped a Gates Sta-level AND La2a on (on right after the other),. and it was still all over the place. (Actually, I think we realized when we strapped the second one it didn't really change anything.) That would have been awesome having a DAW limiter for that.

For the record,. I do not have my console wired into my daw. I just have some old 414s and a pre I use now and then. The console has just sat there in a shipping case since around 2000ish. I am no longer in Hollywood, so I have to call my buddies to pick their brains now and then. So far they still say real rock still sounds a bit fake if you don't use an analogue sound path, and usually tape at some point. I doubt this is true for any other type of music.

I do remember in my lifetime,..there were always those who said they could get that rock guitar sound without a tube amp,..or could get it without a tube amp maxed out balls to the wall. Of all the ones I am aware of,..none had any staying power except the ones that were balls to the wall (whether or not there was a master volume involved). I can think of all these super popular rock records back then,.. And the ones that are still here now.....most of the bands,.. are and were balls to the wall tube amps when it came to guitar sounds (and bass to a lesser extent).

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Old 12-20-2018, 02:46 AM   #9
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with analog but the purists who think the only way to get there is with analog I think are very misguided. Some of the Greatest Albums have been done digitally and rival and even exceed many analog gold standards. You can do it in either Realm but those who think that analog is the only way to go I think are going to create a lot more pain dealing with all that Hardware.
Just for clarity I am in agreement with this within the limits of my experience in both realms. And there is a lot of talk about sound that would probably not stand up if subjected to proper blind testing.
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Old 12-20-2018, 02:52 AM   #10
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Just for clarity I am in agreement with this within the limits of my experience in both realms. And there is a lot of talk about sound that would probably not stand up if subjected to proper blind testing.
Yeah, some of the digital would sound better.
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Old 12-20-2018, 06:30 AM   #11
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I am fairly "green" when it comes to DAWs. (I have a 2" machine sitting in my garage,..and used to have two of them..so I am out of my element here). I have just found out that in addition to the need to use tape to get your drums just right,.. I have also learned from a few trusted friends,..that I'm not going to ever be very close to happy if I don't mix down in my normal analogue console and outboard gear,.. using digital plugins only when needed. So,. I am OK with that. My big question is,..I assume I am going to mix down to a digital master. And I have no idea how to do this. I have a steinberg interface,. (as well as a second I can use if I need more than 8 inputs at a time). If I have 16 tracks, for example, that I want to mix down. Obviously they need to get to the first 16 channels of my mixing desk. Do the 1/4 inch inputs on my steinberg somehow magically turn into outputs??? I am at such a loss here. I mean,..what do I hardwire to my tape returns to on my mixing desk? And, the bigger question is: If I am not mixing down to a tape master (some say I should...I have a studer), where do I "send" my stereo mix to if I am using 16 steinberg channels to reproduce the 16 tracks I am mixing down... ANd, of course,.. the biggest gobbldiegook of them all,.. if I am mixing all this down to two sends,..CAN I CAPTURE THEM BACK INTO REAPER AS I AM PLAYING BACK THE TRACKS I AM MIXING? IT'S HARD TO GET MY HEAD AROUND THIS. Most guys say just mix it digitally and then later on send the master mix to the studer and back again.
going the "hybrid" way can get you very good results by combining the advantage of both analog and digital, the advantages of (good) analog being (among others):
  • no latency
  • instant delivery of good sound
  • physical, tactile experience
  • longevity and lack of updating/licensing/computer-related/administration/compatibility issues

and the advantages of digital being:
  • settings can be stored, recalled and automated
  • cheaper to aquire
  • great no. of instances possible
  • very precise/chirurgical tweaking
  • provide functions that are impossible to have in analog

I settled on a hybrid studio environment consisiting of a fairly sophisticated analog front-end (some rack-mount units and a selection of API 500 series modules from SSL, BAE, Electrodyne, ADL, Purple Audio, Gyraf), digital audio-over-IP networking (for unlimited routing flexibility), Reaper as the recording medium and an analog SSL Sigma summing engine.

I'm tracking through very good analog gear, recording all tracks in Reaper. I'm doing all editing stuff there and then feed out 16 stereo stems into the analog mixer. The analog mix runs through an SSL Bus Comp and a series of the same analog stuff which had been used during tracking and is finally recorded on a dedicated stereo track in Reaper. Mixing and mastering are happening simultaneously. The track that receives the analog mix hosts all the necessary mastering plugins and is set to record its output incl. all the mastering processing and volume automation so that the resulting file is completely finalized and can be used directly in the CD premastering project without further tweaking.

I've now been working this way for the last 5 years and its the best workflow I ever had. Until 2013, I had worked in an all-digital environment for 20 years (3 digital consoles + 3 computers) and I have never been completely satisfied with the results sonically. After integrating some very good, no-compromize analog stuff, I have found my ideal environment. I'd be happy to sell any of the expensive analog stuff the day that I find out that I can get the same sonic results with digital but this is currently not the case. I'm realizing that for now I'm not able to get away without them. I'm getting good-sounding results quicker and the sound is richer/smoother/more pleasant. Tweaking plugin parameters to get the sound right after tracking in the all-digital era was time-consuming and often frustrating.

I can understand that a lot of poeple have a different opinion on the topic. I, too, remained convinced that digital must be better than analog until I got the opportunity to actually test and listen to high-end analog for the first time in 2013. These tests changed my conviction. I wouldn't have believed it either without being given this opportunity to actually hear the difference. I'm still using plugins today but I need A LOT less of them. 80% of the sound is created during tracking. I'm not shy using long chains of analog gear for a voice or instrument. My typical vocal chain would be TLM 170 (or Blackspade UM-25) -> BAE 1084 (or E-Dyne 501 or BAE 312a) -> PA MC77 -> SSL EQ -> SSL comp -> ADL 1500. Only needs a bit of reverb or delay to prefectly sit in the mix - done.

Depending on the quality of your analog gear, I'd suggest to try a hybrid approach (mixed analog/digital). I never had such a stress-free, efficient, stable, creative, good-sounding and flexible environment before. Best of both worlds!

.
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Old 12-20-2018, 06:37 AM   #12
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Obviously you can get great results all analogue, all digital and hybrid.

But, if you've only ever used analogue, there will be a learning curve to using digital, and vice-versa. Different problems with different solutions.

All the engineers who transitioned from analogue to digital didn't one day wake up, throw out all their analogue gear, sit down at Pro Tools and come out with a killer mix.
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Old 12-20-2018, 07:28 AM   #13
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Obviously you can get great results all analogue, all digital and hybrid.

But, if you've only ever used analogue, there will be a learning curve to using digital, and vice-versa. Different problems with different solutions.

All the engineers who transitioned from analogue to digital didn't one day wake up, throw out all their analogue gear, sit down at Pro Tools and come out with a killer mix.
it should be noted also that all these great mixers - maybe having made the transition to mix in the box - are receiving tracks that have been tracked through the finest analog gear available 98% of the time, thus, underlining the importance of an analog front-end even or especially when mixing itb.

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Old 12-20-2018, 07:32 AM   #14
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it should be noted that all these great mixers - maybe having made the transition to mix in the box - are receiving tracks that have been tracked through the finest analog gear available 98% of the time, thus, underlining the importance of an analog front-end even or especially when mixing itb.

.
Very much depends on the genre. Which I guess is what Puke's friends were getting at.

For most pop/rnb/hip-hop stuff there will be software instruments and samples, perhaps a vocal gone through a nice analogue chain, but they also deal with vocals done straight into an interface.
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Old 12-20-2018, 08:08 AM   #15
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Very much depends on the genre.
And where did all the tape hiss go? Never mind, I thought the 98% was for tape, since that was the main reference, my bad!
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Old 12-20-2018, 08:13 AM   #16
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And where did all the tape hiss go? Never mind, I thought the 98% was for tape, since that was the main reference, my bad!
Can't say I've noticed hiss on any album tracked to tape since the 90's.
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Old 12-20-2018, 08:17 AM   #17
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Can't say I've noticed hiss on any album tracked to tape since the 90's.
Yep, that's why I don't think there's "a whole lotta tape" still going on. I know of it here and there but hinting that it should be obvious if it were more than a handful proportionally. I absolutely agree with the idea of relearning, a person will naturally hone their skillset to exploit the medium they have, if they do that for 20 years, then the medium changes, it is not necessarily anything wrong with the medium... that you are at least temporarily a fish out of water because the old skillset just became by some credible amount irrelevant. And I think tape is generally more forgiving.
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Old 12-20-2018, 08:25 AM   #18
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Can't say I've noticed hiss on any album tracked to tape since the 90's.
That's because they're all crushed Dynamics at -8 DB which masks the hiss
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Old 12-20-2018, 08:51 AM   #19
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Yep, that's why I don't think there's "a whole lotta tape" still going on. I know of it here and there but hinting that it should be obvious if it were more than a handful proportionally. I absolutely agree with the idea of relearning, a person will naturally hone their skillset to exploit the medium they have, if they do that for 20 years, then the medium changes, it is not necessarily anything wrong with the medium... that you are at least temporarily a fish out of water because the old skillset just became by some credible amount irrelevant. And I think tape is generally more forgiving.
I was talking about albums that I know were definitely tracked to tape... Faith No More, Tool, Rage Against The Machine, Nirvana...
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Old 12-20-2018, 08:59 AM   #20
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I was talking about albums that I know were definitely tracked to tape... Faith No More, Tool, Rage Against The Machine, Nirvana...
Got it, I hear it on killing in the name of. Left channel when guitar wah intro is on the right. Regardless, if it's more tape than less in the last 20 years or significant, I'd be interested either way.
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Old 12-20-2018, 09:35 AM   #21
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There is very little tape still being used. Good luck getting your hands on a calibration tape that's not shedding. And you can't get new heads, I bet you can't even get them lapped anymore. Who still makes actual tape for that matter? Is Ampex still in business? For better or worse it's over. Move on. Sold my last 2" machine in 95.
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:03 AM   #22
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Good luck getting your hands on a calibration tape that's not shedding.
Here ya go: http://www.mrltapes.com

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And you can't get new heads, I bet you can't even get them lapped anymore.
Got you covered: http://www.jrfmagnetics.com http://www.audiomagnetics.com

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Who still makes actual tape for that matter?
https://www.atrtape.com

https://www.recordingthemasters.com

It's small percentage, but I work on tape projects every single week. There's a studio here in Chicago that goes through 30+ reels of 2" and 1/2" every month.

But there's nothing magical about tape, it's just a workflow that you learn, same as a computer. The biggest benefit is that the gear and staff in a professional analog studio are, typically and hopefully, professional.
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:07 AM   #23
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Got it, I hear it on killing in the name of. Left channel when guitar wah intro is on the right. Regardless, if it's more tape than less in the last 20 years or significant, I'd be interested either way.
Definitely less, but for those studios still running a tape machine it's a good market niche to occupy, because people who can keep tape machines running are thin on the ground these days.
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:27 AM   #24
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Definitely less, but for those studios still running a tape machine it's a good market niche to occupy, because people who can keep tape machines running are thin on the ground these days.
Beyond the trouble, I like tape but at this point see it more as an effect than a medium but agree on the niche. I still have a 1980s Teac in my closet (and a couple of Ampex virgin reels) and between the tape itself and it's electronics it just has a sound to it that is wonderful. It's all out of alignment and not worth the trouble these days though.

Have you seen Jack White's track straight to vinyl shop?

https://thirdmanpressing.com/
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:38 AM   #25
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Beyond the trouble, I like tape but at this point see it more as an effect than a medium but agree on the niche. I still have a 1980s Teac in my closet (and a couple of Ampex virgin reels) and between the tape itself and it's electronics it just has a sound to it that is wonderful. It's all out of alignment and not worth the trouble these days though.

Have you seen Jack White's track straight to vinyl shop?

https://thirdmanpressing.com/
Yeah, I've seen that. Pretty cool.

Totally agree about it being an effect rather than a medium. Most people who still use it that I've talked to transfer straight from tape to Pro Tools for editing.

Steve Albini would be the most famous example of someone who still uses it as a medium, and longevity of masters is one of his biggest reasons. He doesn't trust that old hard drives will have any working machines that can read them in 50 to 100 years' time.
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:56 AM   #26
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A little perspective that might help.

Analog vs. digital...
NO! You listen to analog sound. Period. One system stores the signal as magnetic fields, the other as encoded binary samples.

The machines that do either have a range of nearly 1:1 perfect to appalling.

HD digital (24 bit. HD sample rates yes, but even SD sample rates) can contain any sound you can create with analog gear. The only limiting factor is if you go cheap or not just like with pure analog gear.

Now, some things can only be CREATED with analog gear. So that's what you keep doing. You have the same analog front end of mic and mic preamp as back in the day. You can put whatever analog devices in front of that you please just like back in the day.

The part where the digital system shines is in replacing the tape deck and a lot of the mixing board and processing. Nowadays even the average audio interface has extremely good analog stages. Professional grade at the very least.

OK, you have to learn that tape compression/limiting was a thing. And some of the harmonic distortion elements were not only OK, but actually became desirable. Digital doesn't have such a thing built-in. You have to dial that stuff up if you want it. (And you often do!) The tools are there to do just that. And the old school analog devices are still there and still do what they do.

Yes, it makes that old high end analog board obsolete. Sucks to see something like that retired perhaps. But the positive parts of the digital gear can make that a moot point. When you buy a better car, you don't tie your old one to the back of it and keep towing it around. Let it go. (Not a great analogy probably...)
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Old 12-20-2018, 01:17 PM   #27
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And they both get translated to electrons.
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:24 PM   #28
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And they both get translated to electrons.
They both get translated to air pressure vibrating your eardrums. Pure analog.
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:51 PM   #29
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Tape (at least for drums, but honestly for about everything) and an analog console is definitely not the worst approach, when you're mixing pop/rock music with acoustic and amplified instruments.

Depending on how powerful your computer is, you won't necessarily miss any hardware and there might be an ITB solution.
Have a look (and your friends, too) at Acustica Audio "Taupe", which is pretty incredible when it comes to nailing that tape sound. While you're at it, get the "Ceil" channel strip for free, not because it is free, but because it features a great compressor and filters. Its EQs are okay, but simply Low/High shelves.

If you're happy with that sound, there's more options for EQ, dynamics etc. - so drop me a PM if you like what you hear, too many questions and too much to explain
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:56 PM   #30
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They both get translated to air pressure vibrating your eardrums. Pure analog.
My ears have been upgraded to THX digital !
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Old 12-20-2018, 09:15 PM   #31
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Tape (at least for drums, but honestly for about everything) and an analog console is definitely not the worst approach, when you're mixing pop/rock music with acoustic and amplified instruments.

Depending on how powerful your computer is, you won't necessarily miss any hardware and there might be an ITB solution.
Have a look (and your friends, too) at Acustica Audio "Taupe", which is pretty incredible when it comes to nailing that tape sound. While you're at it, get the "Ceil" channel strip for free, not because it is free, but because it features a great compressor and filters. Its EQs are okay, but simply Low/High shelves.

If you're happy with that sound, there's more options for EQ, dynamics etc. - so drop me a PM if you like what you hear, too many questions and too much to explain
Ceil isn't free though, is it? It's just free to use till February 14th.
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Old 12-20-2018, 09:29 PM   #32
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don't know why but no one answered the question in the OP

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where do I "send" my stereo mix to if I am using 16 steinberg channels to reproduce the 16 tracks I am mixing down... ANd, of course,.. the biggest gobbldiegook of them all,.. if I am mixing all this down to two sends,..CAN I CAPTURE THEM BACK INTO REAPER AS I AM PLAYING BACK THE TRACKS I AM MIXING?
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Do I just set two channels up to record the mixdown on? I'm starting to think that would be it.
you can take 2 outputs from the mixer into 2 inputs on your audio interface. Just make sure you're not creating a feedback loop.
Preferably that's the source you want to be monitoring throughout the mix, the post-summing and digital conversion of the mix, not the analog sum of the mixer which could be slightly different.


What can make that easier in some ways is having two separate computers, one sends the audio to the console/mixer. Output of the mixer goes to the other computer and you monitor low latency from that one.

You don't have to do it either of those ways, I'm sure someone will argue a better way but so far no one answered you.
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Old 12-20-2018, 09:48 PM   #33
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I was talking about albums that I know were definitely tracked to tape... Faith No More, Tool, Rage Against The Machine, Nirvana...
If I'm not mistaken Foo Fighters have quite the tape set up in Grohls Studio?
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Old 12-20-2018, 11:47 PM   #34
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I wonder if OP know that you "render" the project when you're done.
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:30 AM   #35
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I wonder if OP know that you "render" the project when you're done.
depends on how it's routed. In the box of course, out of the box or hybrid… maybe
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:20 AM   #36
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Ceil isn't free though, is it? It's just free to use till February 14th.
It is. You just have to authorize it before Feb 14th.
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:32 AM   #37
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It is. You just have to authorize it before Feb 14th.
Ah, okay, cool.

I wasn't overly impressed by their free aquas I tried a while ago. Got the Computer Music version of Pink too and dumped it after comparing the compressor to the LSR VLB525.

I've hear complaints of artefacts left over from the sampling process on a few of their plugins too. "Laser" sounds are the complaint about Taupe, even after Acustica worked to minimise those artefacts after the initial release. I remember Ronan Chris Murphy saying it wasn't for him when trying one of their Aqua EQ's too, because of some subtle artefacts.

How is the new Aquarius installer? Last time I installed anything from them it wasn't a smooth experience.
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Old 12-21-2018, 09:09 AM   #38
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Ah, okay, cool.

I wasn't overly impressed by their free aquas I tried a while ago. Got the Computer Music version of Pink too and dumped it after comparing the compressor to the LSR VLB525.

I've hear complaints of artefacts left over from the sampling process on a few of their plugins too. "Laser" sounds are the complaint about Taupe, even after Acustica worked to minimise those artefacts after the initial release. I remember Ronan Chris Murphy saying it wasn't for him when trying one of their Aqua EQ's too, because of some subtle artefacts.

How is the new Aquarius installer? Last time I installed anything from them it wasn't a smooth experience.
Well, I think it's about what you expect from the plugin. If you e.g. want to drive every signal into maximum tape saturation, then it won't work. But the overall sound is so much better (cannot stress the FIR/IIR difference often enough), that I work around it with a simple clipper or an Airwindows processor in the chain.
About the "laser" sounds: no matter how I (ab)use Taupe, I never had a single artefact, but I'm one of those people who record at very conservative levels and who like to use ABLM before/after Acustica plugins.*

What exactly was unsmooth about Aquarius? Given you have entered your log/pass and directed the program to the respective folder paths, you just start it, then there's the list of trials (or free products), you click "install", that's it.


* that said: I don't use Taupe, but out of interest I demo'd it. I use tape emus in Nebula on a regular basis.
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Old 12-21-2018, 09:13 AM   #39
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Well, I think it's about what you expect from the plugin. If you e.g. want to drive every signal into maximum tape saturation, then it won't work. But the sound is so much better, that I work around it with a simple clipper or an Airwindows processor in the chain.
About the "laser" sounds: no matter how I (ab)use Taupe, I never had a single artefact, but I'm one of those people who record at very conservative levels and who like to use ABLM before/after Acustica plugins.*

What exactly was unsmooth about Aquarius? Given you have entered your log/pass and directed the program to the respective folder paths, you just start it, then there's the list of trials (or free products), you click "install", that's it.


* that said: I don't use Taupe, but out of interest I demo'd it. I use tape emus in Nebula on a regular basis.
I haven't used any Aqua's since they started Aquarius, it was a bit weird when I did it, IIRC, but supposedly things are much smoother since Aquarius.

I am tempted to demo Taupe, but want to resist because I don't want to spend more money on plugins!

I remember from my Nebula Free days that the reverb really stood out. The Spartan Hall programme would stall and splutter if I tried to use it in real time, but after an offline bounce it was the most impressive software reverb I'd heard at that point. There was a 3rd party batch offline processor for Nebula around that time too, and when I was considering buying it that was a necessary part of the package.
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Old 12-21-2018, 10:26 AM   #40
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I haven't used any Aqua's since they started Aquarius, it was a bit weird when I did it, IIRC, but supposedly things are much smoother since Aquarius.

I am tempted to demo Taupe, but want to resist because I don't want to spend more money on plugins!

I remember from my Nebula Free days that the reverb really stood out. The Spartan Hall programme would stall and splutter if I tried to use it in real time, but after an offline bounce it was the most impressive software reverb I'd heard at that point. There was a 3rd party batch offline processor for Nebula around that time too, and when I was considering buying it that was a necessary part of the package.
Get the free "Ceil" first - it's amazing! While the preamp didn't convince me on drums, it definitely wowed me on acoustic guitar. Compressor sounds great, filters are fantastic, EQs too for simple shelves (with a wide range of corner frequencies). And it's finally close to realtime when switching the modules on/off.
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