⌚ Playtime 2 ... it's coming

[akademie]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

I added it as Todo: https://github.com/helgoboss/helgobox/issues/952

^^^^^^ perfect

BTW, is it safe (or not) to install Playtime2 using ReaPack from within different portable installations?

Like e.g. if I have these 3 Reaper portable installations, each having its ReaPack

D:\portables\REAPER717x64 ... portable install with ReaPack included
D:\portables\REAPER717x86 ... portable install with ReaPack (32-bit version with 32-bit ReaPack) included
D:\portables\REAPER719+dev0711x64 ... portable install with ReaPack included

So installing Playtime2 three times from their respective ReaPacks will install platform correct Playtime2 into each one of them?

I am just asking to be sure, becuase of your info about requirement of manual installation if there are multiple x64 and x86 Reaper installations present at once. But I think in case of portables it should be OK. Is it?

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by akademie

^^^^^^ perfect

BTW, is it safe (or not) to install Playtime2 using ReaPack from within different portable installations?

Like e.g. if I have these 3 Reaper portable installations, each having its ReaPack

D:\portables\REAPER717x64 ... portable install with ReaPack included
D:\portables\REAPER717x86 ... portable install with ReaPack (32-bit version with 32-bit ReaPack) included
D:\portables\REAPER719+dev0711x64 ... portable install with ReaPack included

So installing Playtime2 three times from their respective ReaPacks will install platform correct Playtime2 into each one of them?

I am just asking to be sure, becuase of your info about requirement of manual installation if there are multiple x64 and x86 Reaper installations present at once. But I think in case of portables it should be OK. Is it?

Yes, that's okay. The portable installation are completely isolated from each other, including the installed plug-ins and configuration.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Yes, that's okay. The portable installation are completely isolated from each other, including the installed plug-ins and configuration.

Thanks for confirming

[sound warrior]

hi benjamin, sorry for my late reply, so in the user plug-ins folder, I have an fax folder and reaper_helgobox-arm64.dylib also reaper_reapack-arm64.dylib
Though I have the two extensions mentioned above, I can't see them reference at all in any menus or buttons or the action list. I'm not sure how to fix this or what to do. Also, how do I purchase a license for Playtime too please? As ever, thank you very much for your kind help :-)

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Hi Trey. Sorry, I realize I haven't answered your mail yet.

It's very surprising to hear that ReaPack disappeared. Hard to say what went wrong. Can you start with a clean REAPER installation?

If not, you could check what files you have in your REAPER resource folder in the UserPlugins directory. Anything there?

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by sound warrior

hi benjamin, sorry for my late reply, so in the user plug-ins folder, I have an fax folder and reaper_helgobox-arm64.dylib also reaper_reapack-arm64.dylib
Though I have the two extensions mentioned above, I can't see them reference at all in any menus or buttons or the action list. I'm not sure how to fix this or what to do. Also, how do I purchase a license for Playtime too please? As ever, thank you very much for your kind help :-)

What's in the UserPlugins/FX folder? The most important part is in that folder.

But weird that you can't even see ReaPack in the Extensions menu! You have a Mac M1 or M2 or M3, right?

It's possible to purchase a license here on the website: https://www.helgoboss.org/projects/playtime. But please make sure that it works for you before purchasing a license, otherwise the money is spent for nothing. Playtime 2 is not yet optimized for accessibility.

[Anti]

Sorry if this is a stupid question - I'm not a midi guy. And maybe it's a Reaper thing, not a Playtime2 thing.

The modwheel and pitchbend performance on my midi controller are recorded in the clip.

But when I change things with my mouse in the software-synth interface while playing, such as the modwheel or XYpad or other parameters, I can hear them during the performance, but they aren't recorded and played back in the clip.

Can anyone explain to me how to record live changes made in the software-synth interface, rather than just the changes made on my midi controller?

Thanks.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by Anti

Sorry if this is a stupid question - I'm not a midi guy. And maybe it's a Reaper thing, not a Playtime2 thing.

The modwheel and pitchbend performance on my midi controller are recorded in the clip.

But when I change things with my mouse in the software-synth interface while playing, such as the modwheel or XYpad or other parameters, I can hear them during the performance, but they aren't recorded and played back in the clip.

Can anyone explain to me how to record live changes made in the software-synth interface, rather than just the changes made on my midi controller?

Thanks.

You can't.

What you are looking for are automation clips / clip automation, this is different from MIDI. Vote for this FR: https://github.com/helgoboss/helgobox/discussions/1041

At the moment, you can only do such things via MIDI. Yes, modwheel and pitchbend stuff is recorded as part of a MIDI clip. If you want to change those things after recording, double-click the clip (which opens REAPER's MIDI editor), open the modwheel or pitchbend in the controller pane and adjust the curves.

[tkna]

Originally Posted by Anti

Can anyone explain to me how to record live changes made in the software-synth interface

You could make Automation `Latch`, `Write`, etc. and run that. Screencast: https://0x0.st/XOOR.mp4
See also https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=39536

EDIT: Oh, that's not what you were asking for. Forget it.

[mschnell]

I understand that Playtime is a live/Realtime tool. Automation and other DAW Parameter stuff is not decently "Realtime", even though it might work in certain situations.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I understand that Playtime is a live/Realtime tool. Automation and other DAW Parameter stuff is not decently "Realtime", even though it might work in certain situations.

Automation can also be usable in live situations. E.g. you could decide to trigger a filter envelope at a certain time to achieve a cool, timed effect. But of course, Playtime would use its own automation technique. Only when export to the arrangement, Playtime would convert the clip automation to the usual REAPER automation (maybe with automation items).

This is definitely going to make it into Playtime. I want it, too

[Anti]

I feel strange asking support questions in this thread.
Is there a better place to go for peer support?
Maybe a dedicated thread where users can support each other?
Or a Playtime & Realearn Reddit sub?

If not, my next very basic question is whether it's normal that Playtime2 is placing all the WAV files for the clips in the root of the project folder? Is there a way to specify a path to a Playtime2 sub-folder?

Thanks.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by Anti

I feel strange asking support questions in this thread.
Is there a better place to go for peer support?
Maybe a dedicated thread where users can support each other?
Or a Playtime & Realearn Reddit sub?

No need to feel strange. However, the official community support thread is this one (linked on the website). I'm planning to improve the forum situation, either by getting a subforum here (not sure if I will get one, probably not), or something like Reddit. Want to have it sorted out when Playtime goes out of beta.

Originally Posted by Anti

If not, my next very basic question is whether it's normal that Playtime2 is placing all the WAV files for the clips in the root of the project folder? Is there a way to specify a path to a Playtime2 sub-folder?

Thanks.

It's normal. There's no Playtime-specific recording folder, it's the same folder where REAPER records its own thing. If you need something else, please create a feature request in the idea tracker (linked on the website) with an explanation and provide some reasons why it might be useful.

[helgoboss]

FYI, I opened a poll at the top of this forum thread concerning the future platform for Helgobox (ReaLearn & Playtime) community/support. Explanation here. Feel free to give your vote!

[akademie]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Automation can also be usable in live situations. E.g. you could decide to trigger a filter envelope at a certain time to achieve a cool, timed effect. But of course, Playtime would use its own automation technique. Only when export to the arrangement, Playtime would convert the clip automation to the usual REAPER automation (maybe with automation items).

This is definitely going to make it into Playtime. I want it, too

Cool, glad it is "planned"

[Anti]

please create a feature request in the idea tracker with an explanation and provide some reasons why it might be useful.

Done. Thanks.

Ability to specify a project subdirectory to hold all the Playtime clips #1073
https://github.com/helgoboss/helgobox/discussions/1073

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

... Playtime would use its own automation technique.

Obviously.
But nonetheless Parameter modulation is not inherently "realtime" (i.e.l sample accurate and not prone to inter-thread delays) as Midi CC stream is (which it completely toed to the audio sample blocks). E.g. with VST2 you can't do sample accurate parameter modulation, as the API does not provide that (other than the VST3 API, but I did not yet get confirmation for sample-accuracy for any existing VST3). With JSFX, I fund that it can be made sample accurate regarding envelope curves, but not regarding real time events.
Does Playtime use the sample accurate VST3 parameter modulation API ? What about JSFX ? Other plugin APIs ?

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Obviously.
But nonetheless Parameter modulation is not intermittently "realtime" (i.e.l sample accurate and not prone to inter-thread delays) as Midi CC stream is (which it completely toed to the audio sample blocks). E.g. with VST2 you can't do sample accurate parameter modulation, as the API does not provide that (other than the VST3 API, but I did not yet get confirmation for sample-accuracy for any existing VST3). With JSFX, I fund that it can be made sample accurate regarding envelope curves, but not regarding real time events.
Does Playtime use the sample accurate VST3 parameter modulation API ? What about JSFX ? Other plugin APIs ?

That's technically true. But parameter modulation doesn't always need to be sample accurate to make musically sense. I think in most cases it's not required. Sample accurate automation is useful for very detailed sound shaping. Such a level of detail is usually not required and not even possible to achieve when e.g. a knob is controlled by a human hand.

I would already be more than happy if parameter modulation can happen on audio block level. At the moment, it happens on the main thread, which is due to REAPER's API limitations. When I once asked Justin about changing parameters from the audio thread (achieving block level), he said he will give it a thought. Maybe it will be possible in the future, under certain circumstances.

Funnily enough, even modulation from the main thread is most of the times enough from a musical perspective (though not ideal). When it comes to low-attack notes, latencies >5ms can be felt or heard. But who can hear if one point on a cutoff envelope is 20ms too late? In this case it's more an issue of hearing steps, which probably can become an issue as soon as you use too steep curves.

It always depends on what you want to achieve.

[mschnell]

Yep !
I in fact do use parameter modulation for live playing in one case where the instrument plugin does not map that parameter as a Midi CC.

I suppose problems arise, if CPU powers get to the limit, as the "main" thread has the least priority regarding audio (track) threads.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Yep !
I in fact do use parameter modulation for live playing in one case where the instrument plugin does not map that parameter as a Midi CC.

I suppose problems arise, if CPU powers get to the limit, as the "main" thread has the least priority regarding audio (track) threads.

True. That is probably the biggest issue of the main thread.

[mschnell]

I added a link to this thread in the sticky thread above.

[AndreiMir]

And when it is possible to record the movements of volume control and panorama?, it is very important

[helgoboss]

There's a feature request already. The more votes it gets and the more people purchase a license, the higher it gets on my priority list and the more time I can invest into implementing it. Feel free to vote for it (see idea tracker link on the website). But it's a very large new feature, so it won't happen before the final release, that's for sure.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by AndreiMir

And when it is possible to record the movements of volume control and panorama?, it is very important

Why not use a plugin for this and record Midi ? (Volume: e.g. ReaPack -> Midi Volume Control )

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Why not use a plugin for this and record Midi ? (Volume: e.g. ReaPack -> Midi Volume Control )

Ah yes, a workaround while there are no automation clips yet, is to record MIDI clips with CCs and let them control stuff, e.g. via MIDI link. It's just a bit hacky.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

It's just a bit hacky.

To me: on the contrary !

To me when recording "music" (other than well though out mixing results) the "natural" way is doing than with Midi (CCs), as reaper handles Midi very similar to audio (which IMHO is great and far better than dedicated Midi and audio tracks with other DAWs).

Midi lives in the realm of tracks and hence is realtime performance from start to end (unless you route it to e.g. Volume faders by ReaLearn ).

Using envelops for "live" stuff to me feels very weird. This is not how Reaper is designed.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by mschnell

To me: on the contrary !

To me when recording "music" (other than well though out mixing results) the "natural" way is doing than with Midi (CCs), as reaper handles Midi very similar to audio (which IMHO is great and far better than dedicated Midi and audio tracks with other DAWs).

Midi lives in the realm of tracks and hence is realtime performance from start to end (unless you route it to e.g. Volume faders by ReaLearn ).

Using envelops for "live" stuff to me fees very weird. This is not how Reaper is designed.

Okay, I should have written "not convenient to setup", instead of "hacky".

When implementing the automation clips feature for Playtime, I will take care that as much as possible happens in the real-time world. This definitely includes things like clip volume and pan. Since I can implement this in Playtime internally without calling any REAPER functions, real-time control of this is absolutely possible. Only when changing parameters of track FX, real-time is currently not possible. I hope that Justin can come up with a function that allows to control FX params in real-time within the same real-time thread. It's not a limitation of VSTs that parameters are only controllable from the main thread, it's just a limitation of the current REAPER API.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

It's not a limitation of VSTs that parameters are only controllable from the main thread, it's just a limitation of the current REAPER API.

Yep. AFAIU, they can be controlled by a different thread than the sample strream thread, bit they don't need to.
OTOH, with VST2, parameter changes are only possible once per sample block (they don't feature a "position in block" value. With VST3 they do (i.e. "sample accurate"), but AFAIK only few VST3 plugins really do use that feature. (I did not get notice of a single one).