Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > newbieland

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-25-2013, 09:33 AM   #1
kmaaj
Human being with feelings
 
kmaaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Parkville, MO
Posts: 58
Default ReaFir as noise reduction

After several weeks of playing around with every DAW I can think of, I've decided to go with reaper simply because I can record, edit, and mix down from one setting. My interface came with Ableton, but Ableton's editing capabilities really blow.

The context is solo classical guitar in my living room. Mic's are set fairly close, it's a good size room with vaulted ceilings, and I hang blankets over the glass surfaces and shut off hvac and appliances when recording. I'm going to make a homemade gobo of sorts to place behind the mics to get rid of the few stray reflections that remain.

There is a bit of floor noise left. I've figured out how to get rid of it with reafir, but not without affecting the recorded audio. After applying NR with the subtract mode, the recorded audio gets tones that sound something like burlap rubbing on my guitar.

What am I doing wrong?
kmaaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 01:28 PM   #2
DVDdoug
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,779
Default

I have not used ReaFIR yet, but my experience with other similar noise reduction tools is that sometimes, "The cure can be worse than the disease".

You may be able to tweak the settings to get better results, or your recording may be best just left-alone... It all depends on characteristics of the program material and the characteristics of the noise. Every case is different and you just have to give it a try.

Usually if you have a slight background noise, noise reduction can be very effective. If the noise is bad, there are often undesirable noise-reduction artifacts.

Solo acoustic instruments are some of the most difficult things to record. They don't mask noise very well and they probably are not very good at masking noise-reduction artifacts either.

If you have a lot of instruments and a lot of sound, it's easier to mask noise or other little defects. (i.e. lots of 'signal' gives you a better signal-to-noise ratio.)

If there is silence at the beginning/end you can mute that manually or use a noise gate to eliminate all of the noise during silence. You don't get any artifacts from a gate, since it only kicks-in during silence, but it can be distracting if the background noise suddenly drops-out... Sometimes a little reverb (after the noise gate has been applied) can hide the effects of the background noise suddenly switching in-and-out.

Last edited by DVDdoug; 02-25-2013 at 01:50 PM.
DVDdoug is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 04:13 PM   #3
James HE
Human being with feelings
 
James HE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
Default

I always let Reafir build the noise profile, but then I will pull the entire threshold line down, closer to the noise floor. this still gets rid of most the noise, but has less artifacts.
James HE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 09:02 PM   #4
BenK-msx
Human being with feelings
 
BenK-msx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Whales, UK
Posts: 6,009
Default

Hot reafir tip here... :-)
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...69&postcount=1


Basically Ride the wet/dry of reafir with parameter modulation running from volume, to invisibily reduce noise reduction at high vols and increase as volume gets lower, often never getting 100% wet , eg max out at 90%. Sounds v natural.

Now don't tell anyone.
__________________
JS Super8 Looper Template & intro | BCF2000 uber info Thread | Who killed the Lounge?
BenK-msx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 09:09 PM   #5
Kenny Gioia
Human being with feelings
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
Hot reafir tip here... :-)
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...69&postcount=1


Basically Ride the wet/dry of reafir with parameter modulation running from volume, to invisibily reduce noise reduction at high vols and increase as volume gets lower, often never getting 100% wet , eg max out at 90%. Sounds v natural.

Now don't tell anyone.
That is a really awesome tip!!!
Kenny Gioia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 12:53 AM   #6
Garrick
Human being with feelings
 
Garrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wellington
Posts: 4,622
Default

Great tip.

Another thing before NR is recording levels. You said you play pretty close to the Mic. If you play your instrument loud enough you can bring the noise floor down.
Garrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 08:44 AM   #7
kmaaj
Human being with feelings
 
kmaaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Parkville, MO
Posts: 58
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE View Post
I always let Reafir build the noise profile, but then I will pull the entire threshold line down, closer to the noise floor. this still gets rid of most the noise, but has less artifacts.
I've seen the word before, but did not know what they sound like. Is what I am hearing, "artifacts"? That is why I posted this in the newbie forum.
kmaaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 08:46 AM   #8
kmaaj
Human being with feelings
 
kmaaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Parkville, MO
Posts: 58
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
Hot reafir tip here... :-)
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...69&postcount=1


Basically Ride the wet/dry of reafir with parameter modulation running from volume, to invisibily reduce noise reduction at high vols and increase as volume gets lower, often never getting 100% wet , eg max out at 90%. Sounds v natural.

Now don't tell anyone.
This is something that I need to do in real time during playback, correct? In Ableton, I'd have to print on to another track. Is this true in Reaper as well?
kmaaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 09:38 AM   #9
Sinner
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmaaj View Post
I've seen the word before, but did not know what they sound like. Is what I am hearing, "artifacts"? That is why I posted this in the newbie forum.
You doing it like this?

You wanna get the noise profile, i.e. a sample of the noise you dont want, that tells Reafir to get rid of only that sound. And when I say unclick it, it mean after you've sampled the noise.

But like others said, I usually tweak the threshold [control + left click + drag] and use a gate too. Sometimes one or the other alone works.




(the waveform here is really a bad example cause it has some tail of the kick drum - you want a few seconds before anyone starts playing or after everything has decayed. I just dont have anything handy to make you a pic with).

Last edited by Sinner; 02-26-2013 at 09:43 AM.
Sinner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 09:42 AM   #10
kmaaj
Human being with feelings
 
kmaaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Parkville, MO
Posts: 58
Default

Sinner, exactly like that. I even first edit out things like my initial sitting down and that first deep breath, and try to select nothing but floor noise for the profile.

*edit: I do see one difference. My red line starts higher than yours and then drops to the same level as yours as it goes to the right. Should I try dragging that intial spike down?
kmaaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 09:44 AM   #11
Sinner
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
Hot reafir tip here... :-)
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...69&postcount=1


Basically Ride the wet/dry of reafir with parameter modulation running from volume, to invisibily reduce noise reduction at high vols and increase as volume gets lower, often never getting 100% wet , eg max out at 90%. Sounds v natural.

Now don't tell anyone.
That is very clever.
Sinner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 09:49 AM   #12
BenK-msx
Human being with feelings
 
BenK-msx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Whales, UK
Posts: 6,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmaaj View Post
This is something that I need to do in real time during playback, correct? In Ableton, I'd have to print on to another track. Is this true in Reaper as well?
once set up, it'll ride the wet/dry dial of the reafir plugin automatically during playback - set the NR as above, as (usually) the first, (or after a High pass eq for example) insert fx, then set up the parameter modulation for 'last touched param' after twiddling the wet/dry dial. (see manual for further info on all that)

takes a little tweaking to get that in the zone depending on your material, then you'd just carry on tweaking your sound after that with eq etc.

its totally up to you to if you want to freeze or apply fx (print) etc to the take. mostly not necessary in reaper.


edit: - glad you like it guys it is one of my more pleasing reaper discoveries, as it just sounds better and not noticably processed..
noise reduction is usually a thing to to avoid, now i know that i can go there and not ruin a sound if need be.
__________________
JS Super8 Looper Template & intro | BCF2000 uber info Thread | Who killed the Lounge?

Last edited by BenK-msx; 02-26-2013 at 10:03 AM.
BenK-msx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 10:13 AM   #13
Sinner
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmaaj View Post
Sinner, exactly like that. I even first edit out things like my initial sitting down and that first deep breath, and try to select nothing but floor noise for the profile.

*edit: I do see one difference. My red line starts higher than yours and then drops to the same level as yours as it goes to the right. Should I try dragging that intial spike down?
That red line just depends on the noise. The noise there is broad cause it was live and hd multiple sources of noise.
Sinner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2013, 02:09 PM   #14
bigearz
Human being with feelings
 
bigearz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 278
Default

You could also try using a downward expander to push the low level noise further down. The JS:SStillwell/expander is very easy to work. Play with the threshold to find where the noise level begins, and play with the ratio to make a gentle or sharp drop in the level.
__________________
Keep your ears open!
https://www.revealaudio.com
Win10 x64, i7 4770, 16GB RAM, KeyLab 88
bigearz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 03:34 PM   #15
Not_Here
Human being with feelings
 
Not_Here's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: West Coast - Sun, Sun, and more Sun
Posts: 719
Default

I may be late, but the info is exactly what I needed....
__________________
Rockin the Not_Room... Kali LP6 |iLoud |Mackie Big Knob |AXE I/O |Bugera |Ibanez |Fender |Nektar |Amplitube |PRS Supermodels |iRig Stomp I/O |ARC 3.0 |
Not_Here is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2018, 03:30 AM   #16
colonelporridge
Human being with feelings
 
colonelporridge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 75
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE View Post
I always let Reafir build the noise profile, but then I will pull the entire threshold line down, closer to the noise floor. this still gets rid of most the noise, but has less artifacts.
Your a legend! You just saved me from some very watery sounding noise reduction.
colonelporridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2018, 03:31 AM   #17
colonelporridge
Human being with feelings
 
colonelporridge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 75
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
Hot reafir tip here... :-)
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...69&postcount=1


Basically Ride the wet/dry of reafir with parameter modulation running from volume, to invisibily reduce noise reduction at high vols and increase as volume gets lower, often never getting 100% wet , eg max out at 90%. Sounds v natural.

Now don't tell anyone.
Hell yeah
colonelporridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2018, 09:58 AM   #18
L_Grizzle
Human being with feelings
 
L_Grizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 165
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
Hot reafir tip here... :-)
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...69&postcount=1


Basically Ride the wet/dry of reafir with parameter modulation running from volume, to invisibily reduce noise reduction at high vols and increase as volume gets lower, often never getting 100% wet , eg max out at 90%. Sounds v natural.

Now don't tell anyone.
Woah - I never thought about that. I get very hit-or-miss results using ReaFir, but I think this tip will definitely save some future takes.
L_Grizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2018, 01:58 PM   #19
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE View Post
I always let Reafir build the noise profile, but then I will pull the entire threshold line down, closer to the noise floor. this still gets rid of most the noise, but has less artifacts.
This is exactly what I do, too. Every time I move my rig, I take a "quiet" sample.

Recording in a crappy space is always going to leave you with something you don't want, and no removal method is going to be perfect.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 09:22 AM   #20
pkev
Human being with feelings
 
pkev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 74
Default

You could try using a Gate!
__________________
ASUS Strix B550-F Mobo, AMD Ryzen 5 - 3500X 6 Core 3.6 - 4.1 Ghz 35mb cache / AM4
16GB Ram. 512 GB SSD, 1TB 7200 rpm Drive, Presonus FP10 F/W, Presonus Studiobox 96 Anniversary ed USB audio device. Mixcraft 9, Harrison Mixbus & Reaper
pkev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2018, 07:31 PM   #21
vdubreeze
Human being with feelings
 
vdubreeze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,613
Default

Another good Reafir strategy is to use several in series, with the dry/wet knob set at 20 - 40 % instead of 100% wet, with each one taking its profile from the audio Reafir'ed up to that point. With the threshold pulled a little down, not all the way.
__________________
The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.
vdubreeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2018, 04:33 PM   #22
WalterSK
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 18
Default I'm a noob. What are the steps for this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
Hot reafir tip here... :-)
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...69&postcount=1


Basically Ride the wet/dry of reafir with parameter modulation running from volume, to invisibily reduce noise reduction at high vols and increase as volume gets lower, often never getting 100% wet , eg max out at 90%. Sounds v natural.
I looked at the link above, and I understand the concept. I have been able to reduce background noise with ReaFir, and also with ReaGate, both with success. But I tried the above technique putting ReaFir onto Track 1, got my noise profile, and would like now to know the exact steps to set up parameter modulation to increase NR as volume decreases. I clicked on the PARAM button but don't know which choice to select. Also, in ReaFir I see an output volume fader, but not wet and dry faders. The ones described in the above link seem more consistent with ReaGate controls. Anybody willing to step through the routine and help me out?
WalterSK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2018, 05:09 PM   #23
BenK-msx
Human being with feelings
 
BenK-msx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Whales, UK
Posts: 6,009
Default Ben's param mod reafir tip. circa 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterSK View Post
Anybody willing to step through the routine and help me out?
.gif incoming

full size:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hst...ew?usp=sharing

The settings for attack and release are made up here, but shorter attack long release tends to work but they are material dependant - so adjust those, plus the input threshold plus the wet dry baseline, to taste.


almost forgot what to do but it's all there if you watch closely, and hey its on a loop...

to start, notice i twiddled with the wet/dry/ knob top right of the fx window,
then went to PARAM button etc.

can see by the end, the signal reduces the wet level then returns to max when goes quiet, which is what we want.

having the wet not at 100% as the baseline (top slider in param mod settings) - e.g 90 ish can help with invisibility too.

note: this may likely be my contribution to the world -
__________________
JS Super8 Looper Template & intro | BCF2000 uber info Thread | Who killed the Lounge?

Last edited by BenK-msx; 02-24-2021 at 05:10 PM.
BenK-msx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2018, 12:07 PM   #24
WalterSK
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
note: this may likely be my contribution to the world -
Many thanks. I'm going to set it up and follow the steps. It looks clear to me. I hope some others who read this are helped, as well. I'm sure this approach can be applied to other paradigms, with other VST's

POST EDIT: The GIF was perfect, and I was able to follow the steps. Worked very well.

Last edited by WalterSK; 05-02-2018 at 12:49 PM. Reason: Finished the trial...
WalterSK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2018, 02:29 PM   #25
BenK-msx
Human being with feelings
 
BenK-msx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Whales, UK
Posts: 6,009
Default

Cool stuff. no problem - enjoy your new powers.. and do try tweaks to optimize settings for your needs.
__________________
JS Super8 Looper Template & intro | BCF2000 uber info Thread | Who killed the Lounge?
BenK-msx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2018, 02:42 PM   #26
emarsk
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 218
Default

Nice necro here.

Unless I missed it, I don't think someone mentioned this: lowering the FFT size also can help reducing the artefacts.
emarsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2018, 10:04 PM   #27
James HE
Human being with feelings
 
James HE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emarsk View Post
Nice necro here.

Unless I missed it, I don't think someone mentioned this: lowering the FFT size also can help reducing the artefacts.


A Higher FFT size will give you less artifacts, A lower FFT is less effective at pin-pointing the exact noise profile. Usually there is a sweet spot, and might take a few passes to find it.

Usually you'll want to build the noise profile with the same FFT size as you are planning to process with, but you can certainly experiment and switch things up. Sometimes you'll find a sweet spot where all the trash it puts into your signal becomes almost "musical"

For real tough sources where there is a constant noise, I've found using a higher FFT and then adjusting the entire threshold of the noise profile down a bit is the quickest way to get natural sounding but effective results.

For intimate sounding acoustic stuff where you are wanting to mask noise like breathing and the ruffling of clothing and things like that in addition to the general noise of the room, I'll probably go for a lower FFT and use the parameter modulation trick - When you nail that one it will sound a bit like you are making the room "breathe" a bit with the instrument. I'll do this on sources that don't exactly need it sometimes, just add some subtle character.
James HE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2022, 01:44 AM   #28
lostcowboy
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Denton, Texas
Posts: 3
Default Dynamic (Smart) Noise Reduction in Reaper using Automation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
.gif incoming

full size:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hst...ew?usp=sharing

The settings for attack and release are made up here, but shorter attack long release tends to work but they are material dependant - so adjust those, plus the input threshold plus the wet dry baseline, to taste.


almost forgot what to do but it's all there if you watch closely, and hey its on a loop...

to start, notice i twiddled with the wet/dry/ knob top right of the fx window,
then went to PARAM button etc.

can see by the end, the signal reduces the wet level then returns to max when goes quiet, which is what we want.

having the wet not at 100% as the baseline (top slider in param mod settings) - e.g 90 ish can help with invisibility too.

note: this may likely be my contribution to the world -
As a total newbie in newbieland, I am very interested in Noise Reduction, upon reading
BenK-msx comment and watching the gif file I went looking on YouTube and found this video Dynamic (Smart) Noise Reduction in Reaper using Automation, I hope this helps other newbies.
lostcowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2022, 06:53 AM   #29
BenK-msx
Human being with feelings
 
BenK-msx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Whales, UK
Posts: 6,009
Default

Well its nice people take the effort to make 12 minute videos to explain what I showed in a Gif. And without even a hat tip to the author. 2022 everyone!
__________________
JS Super8 Looper Template & intro | BCF2000 uber info Thread | Who killed the Lounge?
BenK-msx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2022, 08:02 AM   #30
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,205
Default

You may also get useable results from a simpler plugin first before ReaFir, or without it entirely.

This thing has been impressing me greatly:
https://bertom.gumroad.com/l/denoiser
Fergler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2022, 08:29 AM   #31
vitalker
Human being with feelings
 
vitalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,333
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
You may also get useable results from a simpler plugin first before ReaFir, or without it entirely.

This thing has been impressing me greatly:
https://bertom.gumroad.com/l/denoiser
Thanks for the link!
vitalker is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.