Quite a lot of hiss recording with mics

[Sound asleep]

I am getting quite a lot of hiss recording in stereo with actually an SM58 and an SM57, and I am getting quite a lot of hiss.

Is that from my interface? Is there anything I can do for that?

I am not sure if I should crank my input volume to get the hottest signal possible, or if cranking it will produce even more hiss.

Any ideas? Is it just the pres in my interface are shit?

[domzy]

what is your sound source? These are both dynamic mics so you will expect to use a fair bit of gain if you are not close mic-ing or capturing a naturally loud source, in my experience

[kirk1701]

Look around your recording space. Are there any fans, air purifiers, fridges, deep freezers, tvs, radios, pc/mac, furnaces, space heaters, etc. All these are easier to pick up than you might imagine.

Which part of Montreal are you in? That's an old city with various kinds of electrical infrastructure.

Take your time and listen carefully to what your mics are hearing.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by domzy

what is your sound source? These are both dynamic mics so you will expect to use a fair bit of gain if you are not close mic-ing or capturing a naturally loud source, in my experience

Originally Posted by kirk1701

Look around your recording space. Are there any fans, air purifiers, fridges, deep freezers, tvs, radios, pc/mac, furnaces, space heaters, etc. All these are easier to pick up than you might imagine.

Which part of Montreal are you in? That's an old city with various kinds of electrical infrastructure.

Take your time and listen carefully to what your mics are hearing.

I honestly don't hear what my mics could be picking up. The hiss seems more high pitched than any appliance would make.

I feel like turning up the gain makes it worse. I'm just not sure, if it's making it sound more apparent because the volume of the hiss is louder, or if the hiss relative the content is going up, or maybe going down? I don't know, tbh.

So maybe it's my interface? I don't think it would be the mics since it's both of them.

[kirk1701]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

I honestly don't hear what my mics could be picking up. The hiss seems more high pitched than any appliance would make.

I feel like turning up the gain makes it worse. I'm just not sure, if it's making it sound more apparent because the volume of the hiss is louder, or if the hiss relative the content is going up, or maybe going down? I don't know, tbh.

So maybe it's my interface? I don't think it would be the mics since it's both of them.

It's not necessarily your interface. Can you not clap on a pair of headphones, turn on your mics, and have a listen?

We also don't know what you're hearing. Could you record a small portion of the hiss and post it?

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by kirk1701

It's not necessarily your interface. Can you not clap on a pair of headphones, turn on your mics, and have a listen?

We also don't know what you're hearing. Could you record a small portion of the hiss and post it?

To be clear, I'm putting the mics really hot. Like, hotter than you would ever want to sing into, because I'm recording an acoustic guitar with them, which is quiet.

If I record vocals, there's no issue, because I am loud enough and close enough to the mic, where I would put the gain real low, and not notice any hiss whatsoever.

Would a better interface solve this problem? Or it would be different mics I would want?

It's just a lot of white noise, in a more higher pitch end. Are interfaces supposed to be such that I could crank the input all the way max without getting any hiss whatsoever?

EDIT: the hiss is there even if I have nothing plugged into the input.

EDIT2: I noticed phantom power was on. Turning that off removed some of the lower end hiss, now it's a more higher end hiss only that I have.

[Fergler]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

It's just a lot of white noise, in a more higher pitch end. Are interfaces supposed to be such that I could crank the input all the way max without getting any hiss whatsoever?

EDIT: the hiss is there even if I have nothing plugged into the input.

EDIT2: I noticed phantom power was on. Turning that off removed some of the lower end hiss, now it's a more higher end hiss only that I have.

Does the hiss get worse or more whiny if you move your mouse or scroll on the screen?

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by Fergler

Does the hiss get worse or more whiny if you move your mouse or scroll on the screen?

No. It's a consistent relatively high pitch hiss. I do hear it all the time though, I'm noticing. Like, even if I have no monitoring on whatsoever, if I crank the volume of the interface, and nothing is being monitored, the same hiss becomes quite loud when cranked all the way up.

[Sound asleep]

This link shows the main hiss. When it's loudest is my input gain turned all the way up at max.

What's the best strategy to avoid the his as much as possible.

I don't mind cleaning it up with noise reduction software, but I'd like to get as clean a signal as possible before doing that.

I'm just wondering how to get the best signal to noise ratio. does it make a difference how loud the gain is in terms of noise you think?

Meaning, if I record something quiet, and then crank it in reaper, that signal would be worse that if I cranked the gain up, and recorded it that way into reaper?

[Dr Bob]

With those dynamic mics you will need to get as close as possible to the guitar! (Think how close you get when doing vocals with them!).

Your best strategy is to get the best signal into the mic to keep the interface gain halfway or just above (depending on how decent your interface is).

I always use condenser mics for acoustic guitars. But, your mics a decent ones, so experiment getting the mic very close without impeding the guitarist.

A little bit of noise reduction afterwards won't hurt too much once in a mix.

And yes, you can always crank the volume in Reaper so long as you don't have too much noise to start with.

HTH

dB

[Sound asleep]

Ya, the downer is that I really don't like having mics up close to me when I play, but I guess I'll just have to suffer more next time. Or, use a condenser, but then it won't be stereo for me.

[domzy]

If you are close mic-ing a guitar i'm not sure there is any benefit to aiming for stereo (or maybe you want one mic on the body and another on the fretboard?) - if you want a natural stereo recording you should use a pair of condensers, in my opinion.

[Sound asleep]

Problem is, I don't have a pair of condensers.

[domzy]

yeah, i get that, i'm just giving my opinion on stuff. Is it crucial that you do an ambient stereo recording?
Life's all about compromises, you can't always get what you want but if you try different things with what you do have - close mic-ing with a dynamic, a mono recording etc. you might find you get what you need.

[kirk1701]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

This link shows the main hiss. When it's loudest is my input gain turned all the way up at max.

What's the best strategy to avoid the his as much as possible.

I don't mind cleaning it up with noise reduction software, but I'd like to get as clean a signal as possible before doing that.

I'm just wondering how to get the best signal to noise ratio. does it make a difference how loud the gain is in terms of noise you think?

Meaning, if I record something quiet, and then crank it in reaper, that signal would be worse that if I cranked the gain up, and recorded it that way into reaper?

I don't see a link.

I did listen to the link in your signature. I don't hear any hiss.

[karbomusic]

Switching PSU oscillation potentially, that and all the digital stuff runs clocks, which can bleed into audio, usually it's really high-pitched whine. Hearing a sample might help.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

does it make a difference how loud the gain is in terms of noise you think?

Depends on whether it's going through the preamp and getting amplified or if it's getting into the signal chain after the preamp. Former = yes, latter = no.

[WyattRice]

What is your set up? (Interface, preamp, etc.)
Where is the hiss coming from? Headphones, speakers, or both?
How are the headphones being monitored, and speakers?
Your cables ok?

[g4greg]

The '57 and '58 have a very low output. They're an old design..

So yeah, you need a pretty clean preamp to record those for quieter sources. The SM7 is the same.

If you have an off the mill interface like an entry level focusrite, behringer, presonus.. ect.. Their preamps have limited gain. ANY preamp (aside from like the insanely high quality ones) tends to be noisy when pushed towards its higher limits.

A cheap solution is a cloudlifter. It works really well.

A more expensive one is to go for stuff with at least 60-70db of gain like Audient or RME..

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by kirk1701

I don't see a link.

I did listen to the link in your signature. I don't hear any hiss.

Oh, sorry. Must have forgot to paste it. No, no hiss in there, I cleaned everything up. I also recorded a mix of mic and direct input for that track.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xtk...ew?usp=sharing

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by domzy

yeah, i get that, i'm just giving my opinion on stuff. Is it crucial that you do an ambient stereo recording?
Life's all about compromises, you can't always get what you want but if you try different things with what you do have - close mic-ing with a dynamic, a mono recording etc. you might find you get what you need.

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Switching PSU oscillation potentially, that and all the digital stuff runs clocks, which can bleed into audio, usually it's really high-pitched whine. Hearing a sample might help.

That doesn't sound like the same thing. Not sure where the noise is coming in. I would guess it's getting amplified, in which case it doesn't matter where I set the gain?

Originally Posted by WyattRice

What is your set up? (Interface, preamp, etc.)
Where is the hiss coming from? Headphones, speakers, or both?
How are the headphones being monitored, and speakers?
Your cables ok?

It's just a UA-25EX an older entry level model. I think the cables are good. I'm really confident it comes from both, but I can't really check my speakers right now. My headphones are straight in my interface.

[kirk1701]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

Oh, sorry. Must have forgot to paste it. No, no hiss in there, I cleaned everything up. I also recorded a mix of mic and direct input for that track.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xtk...ew?usp=sharing

Okay, I do hear hiss.

I looked up your interface and it has an onboard compressor. Is it on?

Is the ground lift on or off?

[DVDdoug]

This won't help much, but "whine"* is usually "digital switching noise" getting into the preamp through the USB power.


A different computer may be better or worse, or a powered USB hub (a hub with it's own separate power supply) may help.


A different interface may be more, or less, immune to power supply noise.


Of course, interfaces with their own separate power supply are not affected by the computer's power supply.

To be clear, I'm putting the mics really hot. Like, hotter than you would ever want to sing into, because I'm recording an acoustic guitar with them, which is quiet.

Right. Acoustic instruments are the hardest to record. Turning-up the gain during recording, or digitally later boosts the signal noise together. This makes the noise more noticeable but it doesn't actually affect the signal-to-noise ratio.

If you're mixing vocals & other instruments, a more "dense" mix will help to drown-out the noise.


A "hotter" mic, such as a condenser or something like the cloudlifter should help to improve the signal-to-noise ratio as long as that electrical noise doesn't get into the condenser's head amp or into the cloudlifter, etc.








* All active electronics (op-amps, transistors, FETs tubes) generate white noise an the higher the gain the more the noise gets amplified. A better preamp will be quieter, and noise in non-amplified (or less amplified) line-level circuits is usually not an issue.


And of course, you can get AC power-line hum from a power supply or electromagnetically (through the air).

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

That doesn't sound like the same thing. Not sure where the noise is coming in. I would guess it's getting amplified, in which case it doesn't matter where I set the gain?

Thanks for posting the example and you are correct, not digital whine.

That's classic analog hiss so it's either from the preamp/unit (the most common difference between cheap/not cheap) or you could have one of those plugins that feels that it isn't a true analog experience without the hiss A number of Waves plugins do this for example so consider that as a sanity check.

[urednik]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

Oh, sorry. Must have forgot to paste it. No, no hiss in there, I cleaned everything up. I also recorded a mix of mic and direct input for that track.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xtk...ew?usp=sharing

Normal hiss structure for 57, depending on the gain of preamp of course.
No preamp can avoid it. It is the mic 100%
Now it can be - if the gain is not over 3 o'clock on most preamps - that you damaged the microphone cap from inside. Did you ever disassemble it?
If the gain is hotter it is just normal. Sorry.

[serr]

If I were to plug a couple '57s into an average mic preamp, place them some feet away from an acoustic and try to crank up the gain and try to record with them like I would with a pair of condensers, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to get hiss doing that with the preamps boosted up like you'd need with that.

Then you get said recording on the mixing board and you're reaching for more high end and bringing more hiss up.

There'd be some variance between preamps with this I suppose. Maybe a higher end class A preamp might shine at higher gain and be quieter. But this is all a workaround for trying to record with cheapo dynamic mics when you really need a pair of condensers for the job at hand.

Do what you need to do with what you have and all. Heck, you might achieve a sound and then a mix that really nails something at the end of the day and prove everyone and their condensers wrong!
Experiment and try stuff. But don't too surprised or caught up with a 57 that gets some hiss when you try cranking up your preamp almost all the way trying to field record with it.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by kirk1701

Okay, I do hear hiss.

I looked up your interface and it has an onboard compressor. Is it on?

Is the ground lift on or off?

Compressor was on and set to limited bu I have since turned it off. I liked to have it set on, because it lets me recorded hotter without clipping.

Ground lift is off I think, but I think it's a different hum than that, and it didn't seem to make any difference either way.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Thanks for posting the example and you are correct, not digital whine.

That's classic analog hiss so it's either from the preamp/unit (the most common difference between cheap/not cheap) or you could have one of those plugins that feels that it isn't a true analog experience without the hiss A number of Waves plugins do this for example so consider that as a sanity check.

Dude, I shit you now, I had a waves plugin doing this on my master lol. But it wasn't the only source of hiss. Fucking waves plugins lol. The worst part, is they always have those set as the default. -.-

Originally Posted by urednik

Normal hiss structure for 57, depending on the gain of preamp of course.
No preamp can avoid it. It is the mic 100%
Now it can be - if the gain is not over 3 o'clock on most preamps - that you damaged the microphone cap from inside. Did you ever disassemble it?
If the gain is hotter it is just normal. Sorry.

The microphones are fine, both are the same, and I get the hiss even with no mics plugged in.

Originally Posted by serr

If I were to plug a couple '57s into an average mic preamp, place them some feet away from an acoustic and try to crank up the gain and try to record with them like I would with a pair of condensers, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to get hiss doing that with the preamps boosted up like you'd need with that.

Then you get said recording on the mixing board and you're reaching for more high end and bringing more hiss up.

There'd be some variance between preamps with this I suppose. Maybe a higher end class A preamp might shine at higher gain and be quieter. But this is all a workaround for trying to record with cheapo dynamic mics when you really need a pair of condensers for the job at hand.

Do what you need to do with what you have and all. Heck, you might achieve a sound and then a mix that really nails something at the end of the day and prove everyone and their condensers wrong!
Experiment and try stuff. But don't too surprised or caught up with a 57 that gets some hiss when you try cranking up your preamp almost all the way trying to field record with it.

Ya, I've managed to get this track sounding pretty decent with this setup, so I'll leave it like that for now, but I'll try something different on future recordings.

[Jimmy James]

Find out what the max level before noise is on your preamp. My Focusrite will use heaps of gain before it introduces noise. I experimented and found I can use my gain up to 9, before I get noise from it. So my signal to noise is fantastic.
On my outboard preamp, the max level is 7. Once you know what the max level is, that is your usable gain level. Try some test recordings like that and see if that helps. It did for me. I gain stage everything to -18. But my tracks record about -8db and I have to turn the gain down after I record. But my signal to noise is fantastic.

[Jimmy James]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

I am getting quite a lot of hiss recording in stereo with actually an SM58 and an SM57, and I am getting quite a lot of hiss.

Is that from my interface? Is there anything I can do for that?

I am not sure if I should crank my input volume to get the hottest signal possible, or if cranking it will produce even more hiss.

Any ideas? Is it just the pres in my interface are shit?

I forgot, I also started using in line boosters with my 57s sometimes. It can really help as well if you have any to try. It lowers my max gain level number to 6 on my outboard preamp, but I have more gain than without the booster.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

Dude, I shit you now, I had a waves plugin doing this on my master lol. But it wasn't the only source of hiss. Fucking waves plugins lol. The worst part, is they always have those set as the default. -.-

Ah! When I heard your sample it so reminded me of it. The first time it happened to me, it drove me nuts until I found it. I don't miss analog 'that' much, I don't.

[kirk1701]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

Compressor was on and set to limited bu I have since turned it off. I liked to have it set on, because it lets me recorded hotter without clipping.

This is true, but a compressor will also bring up room noise.

My final recommendation is a Cloudlifter or a Triton Audio Fethead. Studio Economik has both. I got my Fethead from them. Works great on my ribbon mic and 57.

http://www.economik.com/cloud-microp...1-cloudlifter/

http://www.economik.com/triton-audio/fethead/

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by Jimmy James

I forgot, I also started using in line boosters with my 57s sometimes. It can really help as well if you have any to try. It lowers my max gain level number to 6 on my outboard preamp, but I have more gain than without the booster.

Originally Posted by kirk1701

This is true, but a compressor will also bring up room noise.

My final recommendation is a Cloudlifter or a Triton Audio Fethead. Studio Economik has both. I got my Fethead from them. Works great on my ribbon mic and 57.

http://www.economik.com/cloud-microp...1-cloudlifter/

http://www.economik.com/triton-audio/fethead/

Hmmm, ya these look like they might be useful in my case, but, at the same time, if I was going to buy 2 of those, it might just make more sense to buy a better interface, instead. That would be cleaner, a more updated piece of equipment, and I could maybe get extra inputs while I'm at it.

[kirk1701]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

Hmmm, ya these look like they might be useful in my case, but, at the same time, if I was going to buy 2 of those, it might just make more sense to buy a better interface, instead. That would be cleaner, a more updated piece of equipment, and I could maybe get extra inputs while I'm at it.

You could, sure. But it's not really the preamps that are at issue. To upgrade significantly from what you have would be in the five figure range. This is unnecessary. If you can record at 44.1hz/24bit, you're golden.

The general philosophy is "fix it at the source." Since you can't turn up an acoustic guitar, the microphone seems like the next logical place to start.

If the line preamp doesn't appeal, perhaps a mic upgrade? These are some of the best value in small diaphragm condensers. You probably don't need the matched pair, but it's a good value package.


https://musiquedepot.ca/lewitt-lct-0...icrophone.html

[JeffreyET]

Since you have one of each: I've had great results using a SDC at the end of the fretboard, and a dynamic mic (RE20) on the lower bout. Both about 3 inches away. If the one at the FB gets in your way, you could move it back a bit - inviting possible phase issues to deal with later.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by kirk1701

You could, sure. But it's not really the preamps that are at issue. To upgrade significantly from what you have would be in the five figure range. This is unnecessary. If you can record at 44.1hz/24bit, you're golden.

The general philosophy is "fix it at the source." Since you can't turn up an acoustic guitar, the microphone seems like the next logical place to start.

If the line preamp doesn't appeal, perhaps a mic upgrade? These are some of the best value in small diaphragm condensers. You probably don't need the matched pair, but it's a good value package.


https://musiquedepot.ca/lewitt-lct-0...icrophone.html

Ya, maybe a mic upgrade would be better. Interesting, I never heard of music depot before lol. Thanks.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by JeffreyET

Since you have one of each: I've had great results using a SDC at the end of the fretboard, and a dynamic mic (RE20) on the lower bout. Both about 3 inches away. If the one at the FB gets in your way, you could move it back a bit - inviting possible phase issues to deal with later.

Ya, I might try a more ambitious recording setup at some point. I just remembered I have access to a zoom h5, which has a great condenser pair on it, and also 2 xlr inputs, so, I could record a setup like that, as well as have the stereo condenser thing going.

What's a bit tough for me sometimes, is that since I'm the engineer and the player, I must have a biased review of the recording. I can't easily change and listen so much, because whatever I change is being coloured by the sound coming in from outside my headphones. It's not like im in another room auditioning on my monitors. I can, listen to play back, and then make adjustments of course, but that's even more time consuming, especially with multiple mics.

[Dr Bob]

I would probably go down the experimental route then …

Use as many sources as possible to record (ideally at the same time!). Make a comprehensive notes about positions and gain etc …

Check the recordings and mix potential … rinse and repeat!

You might find that even a fairly el cheapo condenser will do the job, 1/2" will suffice and can be found cheap - will need 48v phantom power of course.

I have bought some dead cheap condensors off fleabay … luckily they were in superb condition … can be pot luck of course. Any second hand shops near you? You never know if something useful is lurking in them, and sometimes the owner/sellers haven't a clue about how good some mics are … got a couple of nic AGK's for virtually nothing.

Good luck, let us know how you get on as this issue is something many will confront having got their "vocal" mic sorted and find they are not quite sensitive enough.

dB

[kirk1701]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

Ya, maybe a mic upgrade would be better. Interesting, I never heard of music depot before lol. Thanks.

kijiji.ca is rife with affordable small diaphragm condensers, which are what you want for acoustics.

If you browse reverb.com as well, I would recommend "Ken's Gear." He used to be a brand called "Kel Audio." He sells off old stock here and there. I got a sdc from him for a really good price. I use it for all acoustic stuff. You could msg him and let him know what you're looking for. He's in Alberta, I think.

[serr]

The weak player in this equation is the '58 by a magnitude.

Different preamps? Extra preamp boosters in line!?
If you want even more hiss out of that '58 I suppose...

Your audio interface with it's included mic preamps is going to be solid. Budget interfaces and preamps are solid. It's not "boutique or bust" anymore and hasn't been for a long time. I'm not suggesting boutique is bs by any means! Just that this isn't the main player here.

A '58 is not a solid high end pro microphone pickup. It's made more for rejecting everything except what's eating the thing on a loud stage. You see all these other style mics out there (some with great effort and expense into them) for a reason. You aren't getting limited capture of the '58 due to limitations of any preamp. The '58 is what's limited here.