Old 07-19-2018, 07:02 PM   #1
EManBass
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Default Delay added when working with folders?!?!

Hi all,

So, I ended up losing a client recently because among other things, the audio of certain things ended up being delayed in the mix, and trying to figure out issues like this kind of turned the client off. Not gonna stop using Reaper, but I wanna know if anybody has noticed anything like this. This was a modern jazz guitar trio, and I had a drum folder with all the drums going in there. I started working with folders not too long ago, coming from always using buses in post-fader, because they pretty much give me the same functionality in terms of muting and soloing, bus processing, and such, plus the ability to make the children tracks very tiny in the editing window when I want to focus on only mixing.

However, as I mentioned, we noticed there was delay added on the drums. They were late by some milliseconds, and that was unacceptable. After hrs of looking at my beginnings and endings, bypassing all the effects on all tracks (which made the delay disappear), I tried going back to a bus: So I undid the folder/children link, and used the exact same folder track named DRUMS to receive from all the drum tracks as a bus instead. So, everything being the same, my faders give me the same volume into the bus, my bus processing is the exact same on the drum bus, but no delay. Weirdest thing ever.

Anybody knows what is going on? This hasn't happened before or after that session (though I haven't had anything like that in about a month, just single track recordings) involving folders and/or buses. Any input is much appreciated!
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:55 AM   #2
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The hint in your question: Bypassing all the effects made the delay disappear.
This sounds like there was an effect somewhere that caused the delay. Maybe bypass them one at a time to see which one is was. Just a thought.
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Old 07-20-2018, 04:35 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
The hint in your question: Bypassing all the effects made the delay disappear.
This sounds like there was an effect somewhere that caused the delay. Maybe bypass them one at a time to see which one is was. Just a thought.
To be honest, I'm not so worried in finding which one was adding the most delay, or which combination was making it too obvious, but why would it only happen when the summing track was a folder and not when it's a bus, having both the exact same plugins and processing applied. As I said, absolutely everything was exactly the same, the only difference is that when the delay was happening, the track receiving drums signal was a folder; when there was no delay that very same track, with all of its glorious processing, was a bus with the drum tracks sending to it. Shouldn't it be the same?
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Old 07-20-2018, 04:48 AM   #4
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There are some under-the-hood processing tricks that might be available for folders and not normal buses, or vice versa. Knowing what the plugin was and where it was might help us.
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Old 07-21-2018, 06:24 AM   #5
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There are some under-the-hood processing tricks that might be available for folders and not normal buses, or vice versa. Knowing what the plugin was and where it was might help us.
The plugins are:

1) Slate VRM with Revival on it only
2) Waves DBX 160 compressor
3) And Stillwell Event Horizon for soft clipping

This is what, when on a folder, adds a bit of delay; when on a bus, there's no delay.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:26 AM   #6
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"To be honest, I'm not so worried in finding which one was adding the most delay, or which combination was making it too obvious, but why would it only happen when the summing track was a folder and not when it's a bus, having both the exact same plugins and processing applied. As I said, absolutely everything was exactly the same, the only difference is that when the delay was happening, the track receiving drums signal was a folder; when there was no delay that very same track, with all of its glorious processing, was a bus with the drum tracks sending to it. Shouldn't it be the same?"

Sounds really weird. Do you have some way to consistently reproduce it?
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:48 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EManBass View Post
The plugins are:

1) Slate VRM with Revival on it only
2) Waves DBX 160 compressor
3) And Stillwell Event Horizon for soft clipping

This is what, when on a folder, adds a bit of delay; when on a bus, there's no delay.
Try them one at a time. My money is on Waves; they're notorious for not caring about compatibility with Reaper, and the way their plugins are packaged is a little funny. If it does turn out to be that one (or either of the others, I guess), try disabling Anticipative FX on the folder (Right-click the track, Track Performance Options) and see if it helps.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:50 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramses View Post
but why would it only happen when the summing track was a folder and not when it's a bus
As I said above, because there are probably some differences in how folders and buses are handled internally, especially regarding PDC and Reaper's Anticipative Processing. Some plugins don't react well to Reaper's trickery at times.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:55 AM   #9
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It sounds like you found a bug with folder buses. If you can reproduce it (which it sounds like you can), post the .rpp session file with an example of the normal bus routing working properly and then the folder bus with PDC screwed up. Run a quick render of something to illustrate the offset.

It sounds like PDC is crashing on the folder bus. A folder bus and normal bus routing are supposed to be identical.

I see faux pas here and there with PDC. I have a plugin or two that reports its lag incorrectly to PDC. I honestly haven't tried it with a folder bus to test. I only use normal busing and universal tracks FWIW. (What works for you while the folder bus does not.) The JS Time adjuster plugin can be set to negative numbers in samples to let you run it live in parallel processing scenarios but PDC can get crashy with too many of these plugins in a session. I've had crashy behavior when stressing PDC too much on a single track with multiple higher lag but otherwise behaving plugins too. The workaround there is to split some plugins out to multiple daisy chain routed tracks.


Sorry to hear this scared away a client! Next time don't panic. Announce that something's wrong and it's not an OK waste of anyone's time. Be more disapproving than they are right away! Something like "I'm sorry, some weird bug just got shaken out. This isn't acceptable and I'm not charging for the hours today because of this. I'll do the clean up on my own time too and solve the bug and then get you guys back in here. No worries and nothing lost. These things come up sometimes. Hey, at least we're not using Protools or Windows! This would be an every session kind of thing for those poor folks!" You're on their side and you have their back against the misbehaving software.
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