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Old 06-11-2019, 08:24 AM   #1
Ozman
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Default Reaper Chord Track (ARA Dreams?)

Looking at the date of the first project I posted on this, it's been almost 4 years since I made a working example of a real-time Reaper project containing a chord progression that forced MIDI and Audio tracks to conform.

Link to Project

I'm wondering why this isn't a big factor to anyone here. Many praise tools like RapidComposer and the like, but tools like that do not affect audio clips.

Cubase was the first with a Chord Track. Studio One even has its own Chord Track.
I bet both of them has had their issues, but they at least started with something.

Reaper Developers, Scriptors, etc. please start giving more attention to such workflows NATIVELY. The capabilities are already there. Just some love and team-work needs to be applied to the goal.

Look at how heavy MusoBob is going on his ReaTrack workflow, using tools like Band in a Box.

Like Really?

No one should have to make so many crazy 3rd party workflows for such common/modern composing features, that Reaper for the most part is already capable of performing.

I'm trying not to make this come off as a rant. But really, am I just wasting my time even bringing this up?

Last edited by Ozman; 12-13-2019 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:38 AM   #2
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There's a sizeable list of features that a majority of users seem to agree are no-brainers, like this, but which Cockos haven't shown any inclination to work on. Whether that's from a lack of interest, or maybe because of technical challenges with how the existing code works, nobody can say.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:01 AM   #3
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I agree - this would be very useful.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:59 AM   #4
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Tracktion has chord support. Cakewalk has no chord progression, but at least pitch markers (MIDI/audio able to follow it).

Is REAPER the only DAW which think that "pitch" is no so important for Music?
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:47 PM   #5
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+1

Would like to see something like this too.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:21 AM   #6
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I think that while Reaper does not have a native polyphonic pitch engine, there is no point in talking about something like a chord track of the Studio One4 level.
At the moment, the closest available way to change the notes inside a chord (I mean audio, not midi) is to use Melodyne. But this is still far from the full-fledged chord track.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:09 AM   #7
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Default Reaper cannot .... ?

Reaper has ARA, which may be the one of the best polyphonic pitch engines and is also able to detect a sample's key.
Anyway, there's also, most likely, some open source library for this stuff as well (if ARA doesn't easily communicate such data through its API).
Either way, if multiple DAWs have been able to do it for years, why cannot Reaper?

The test project I did which forced monophonic audio and midi notes to conform to a chord progression was done 4 years ago,
that's a whole college degree/military enlistment worth of time.

It's features like this that make digital ITB musicians feel a major lacking, when we know music theory and see tools floating around of various other DAWs
which cater to ITB composition. It's pretty much becoming a standard nowadays.

We stay hopeful with Reaper for one reason: Love.

While other DAWs tend to have a lot of features that I have access to (e.g. Studio One, Ableton, FL Studio, Sonar, Audition, etc), and know very well,
I prefer Reaper be my canvas.

I've been tweaking, making toolbars and menus, etc, doing the best I can do to adapt certain workflows
to this platform. But with this, there's just no way around it.

I need... We need the help of the Reaper Devs.

Last edited by Ozman; 06-13-2019 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:21 AM   #8
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I think you may just see a chord track in Reaper 6.
Getting midi to conform should not be a problem,
MIDI_SetScale was asked for as there is only a MIDI_GetScale this would enable snap all notes starting in selection (region) to snap to that Reascale, ReaTrak at the moment reads the region/chord name gets the notes for that chord from the internal chord library then converts it to a ReaScale value then uses mpl's Snap selected notes to scale, so that should be easy enough for a Reaper 6 chord track to do.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2129237#780
Monophonic audio should not be a problem, I suggested with ReaTune they could have an option to receive a send from a midi chord track to set the ReaTune notes, so having a chord track they could do that automatically or to whatever scale it is set to.

To conform polyphonic audio you would need Reaper to integrate Melodyne as Studio One does so those who have the polyphonic version of Melodyne will get this feature in Reaper.

With ReaTrak I was hoping there would be a community sharing of prerecorded instrument tracks in different key/chord progressions that are fitted automatically to the chord track rather than having to elastique them, but that may happen down the track if Reaper 6 has a chord track then things may take off as potential is seen.
I would have to modify ReaTrak from
reaper.EnumProjectMarkers( proj, idx )
to
reaper.EnumProjectChords( proj, idx )

reaper.SetProjectMarker
to
reaper.SetProjectChord
etc...

but I don't think it would have all the chords that ReaTrak has as Reaper's MusicXML import only imports basic chord names and misses a lot that MuseScore uses.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=209607
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:48 PM   #9
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With the chords for Reaper 6 chord track you could have an editable GUI chord library that allows you to add aliases names to chords, add new chords and edit the chord's notes,
ReaTrak matches the region name by
if string.find(",Maj11,maj11,M11,Maj7(add11),M7(add11 ),", ","..chord..",", 1, true) then note2=4 note3=7 note4=11 note5=14 note6=17 end
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Old 07-25-2019, 03:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusoBob View Post
With the chords for Reaper 6 chord track you could have an editable GUI chord library that allows you to add aliases names to chords, add new chords and edit the chord's notes,
ReaTrak matches the region name by
if string.find(",Maj11,maj11,M11,Maj7(add11),M7(add11 ),", ","..chord..",", 1, true) then note2=4 note3=7 note4=11 note5=14 note6=17 end
WOW! thank MusoBob!
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:00 PM   #11
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Here's another vote for a chord track in Reaper.
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:01 PM   #12
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Maybe, just maybe... it is good that Reaper devs haven't rushed to add a chord track. I'm now seeing that the ideal workflow for this has in a sense gone through its own evolution. Zplane has also released a software that I think is a step in the right direction. It detects the chord progression, like Studio One, but allows the user to then draw notes over the detected harmonics. Surely the ultimate power would be to have that ability in the midi editor for analyzed audio items. Detect their chords and send to a chord track as well as seeing their note harmonics (somewhat like melodyne'a blobs) watermarked in the background. Maybe, using future ARA features will allow for such.

Actually, MPL made a script that is somewhat relative.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=222825

Having something along the aforementioned lines integrated in the midi editor along would be perfect.

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Old 12-12-2019, 02:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozman View Post
Maybe, just maybe...
So Zplane DeCoda looks pretty cool, as it claims to be able to extract chords from polyphonic audio.

I believe BIAB is using some Zplane technology including Elastique Pro and Harmony. BIAB has the Audio Chord Wizard which also extracts chords from audio. I have to believe this is being done with some Zplane technology. I don't think this is available in the VST plugin version though.

BIAB has been around for a long time and is able to go one step further (like Studio One) - have the Style's MIDI and Realtracks obey the chords. I don't own BIAB, but I've read that those Realtracks parts are pitch and tempo modified by Elastique Pro, so I'm not sure if the parts can switch from a major to a minor chord.

Regarding Studio One, it comes with a monophonic version of Melodyne, so I doubt that it is Melodyne which is facilitating all of what their Chord Track and Harmonic Analysis are performing, however, it wouldn't surprise me if it was directly related to ARA2.

As mentioned, now that REAPER has ARA2 support, hopefully there is some technology out there which could enable the implementation of a Chord Track / Harmonic Analysis.
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Old 12-12-2019, 04:12 PM   #14
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With Biab the RealTracks have a lot of recorded material and lots of chords some have 12 keys. They are only transpose and stretch to give more variation there's no polyphonic changes, you can set them to no transpositions to get the original.
That's what ReaTrak does, it fits pre-recorded tracks to the chord track. It will also refit midi to the chord track.

I just purchased DeCoda as it looked good and the demo version didn't export
But it only does a few chord types.
You can't export the chords, it should a least export them as midi markers.
You have to manually fill the notes in in the piano roll and moving them has no effect on the audio.
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Old 12-13-2019, 08:17 AM   #15
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ARA2 is that corpus callosum of modern digital music.
Now is the time for ingenuity in its usage.
Let's imagine.

Anyway, I'm going to just start posting imagery of what I'm seeing.
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Old 12-13-2019, 08:29 AM   #16
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Old 12-13-2019, 12:48 PM   #17
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If you could GET/SET the fx parameter of ReaTune
reaper.TrackFX_GetParam(seltrack, 0, 12 )
reaper.TrackFX_SetParam( seltrack, 0, 12, 2 )

you could set it to snap to whatever notes you like on the fly,
the parameters can be set from the current chord/scale midi note track
or if that can't be done allow it to follow a send from a midi chord/scale track.

Would that help and be of use do you think ???

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Old 12-15-2019, 09:08 PM   #18
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I've already created a template (years ago) that can slave both midi and monophonic audio items to a chord progression.
(i.e. https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....ht=chord+track)
It can be done.
However, it isn't an ideal approach to having a chord track.
Look at how Studio One does it (seemingly inspired by Cubase's Chord Track)... Definitely a step in the right direction.
But it can go even further...
Honestly, Chord Tracks and Arrangement Tracks are already a frontier of the past.
It's just a matter of whether such a feature set is adopted by a DAW.

Features such as:
1) Forcing other midi and audio items/tracks to snap to the chords of said track.
- Maybe using ARA is the only way to accomplish such with polyphonic material.
2) Chord editing features (like Studio One, Scaler, EZ Keys, etc.)
- extending chords (7, 9, 11, 13), augmentations, inversions, suspensions, substitutions, etc.
3) Snapping to chords in various modes (e.g. melodic, bass, etc.).
...

The previous post's image, was hinting at possible target features for when a Chord Track and/or other ARA integrations are one day implemented.
For example, that previous image's idea has already been partially implemented in Digital Performer and Logic Pro's Flex Pitch.
However, neither of them actually integrates such a tool within the Midi Editor itself.

My thing is, why have all this separation between audio and midi anyway? Why have multiple piano rolls (one for midi instruments,
and one when editing pitches of audio items), when all of it is representing the same thing? Synergy is what we need.

I know it's a bit of a tangent.
I guess there's a bit of frustration I have with the Audio and Midi barriers of today.
For example: Most samplers don't even attempt to detect pitch or create pitch maps of imported samples.
It's like VSTi developers are just trying to get some market share of what is trending (e.g. Wavetables and Romplers),
rather than looking at existing tech and improvising in their usage.

Maybe, I just need to chill out and just make some music... lol.

Last edited by Ozman; 12-15-2019 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 12-16-2019, 08:20 AM   #19
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Default Please!

+1 please.
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Old 01-31-2020, 09:29 AM   #20
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Default Extract Audio to Chord Track

This is a free library (circa 2011) that can maybe be converted to LUA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff-V6ggv100
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Old 01-31-2020, 03:48 PM   #21
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Why not using sonic-annotator, the command line version of Sonic visualiser for such tasks, like chord detection from audio files.

Here two examples, tested on linux, elsewhere it should work similarly:
PHP Code:
sonic-annotator -d vamp:nnls-chroma:chordino:chordnotes -w csv test.mp3

sonic
-annotator -d vamp:nnls-chroma:chordino:simplechord -w csv test.mp3 
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Old 01-31-2020, 04:44 PM   #22
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I'm just working on getting that and beats into ReaTrak.
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Old 02-01-2020, 02:23 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
Why not using sonic-annotator, the command line version of Sonic visualiser for such tasks, like chord detection from audio files.

Here two examples, tested on linux, elsewhere it should work similarly:
PHP Code:
sonic-annotator -d vamp:nnls-chroma:chordino:chordnotes -w csv test.mp3

sonic
-annotator -d vamp:nnls-chroma:chordino:simplechord -w csv test.mp3 
I want to use use a folder in the Reaper's Scripts folder for the vamp plugins, not sure how to set that ?
Quote:
Alternatively you can put vampy plugins somewhere else and export the environment variable VAMPY_EXTPATH e.g.:

export VAMPY_PATH="/your/vampy/plugin/directory"
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:22 AM   #24
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I was playing around with the chord features of Cubase Elements 10.5 and I discovered that when MIDI tracks followed the chord track, it was destructive - so aside from "undo" you couldn't get back to the original MIDI data, and subsequent chord track changes would have an iterative effect on the MIDI data.

Studio One, on the the other hand, does it's stuff non-destructively. For audio, it creates metadata tags after harmonic analysis of the audio.

To be frank, the most satisfying thing about Cubase, is the relationship between the chord assistant circle of fifths to the chord pads. The Pro addition augments the chord assistant by including a chord proximity option.

Ableton can create MIDI from polyphonic audio and of course there's Melodyne.

It seems the German engineers are leading the pack when it comes to harmonic analysis.
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Old 04-22-2020, 12:17 PM   #25
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Well, I've kinda given up on the whole idea.
Maybe Reaper will surprise me one day.

Nowadays, I use the following to slave tracks to a Chord Progression:

MIDI Snapping:
1) Squaredheads Nora (Sequenced Arp)
2) Melodic Flow (for melodies and basslines)
3) MIDI_KeySnap (JSFX)

Audio Snapping:
1) zplanes's reTune
2) reaTune (JSFX) can take MIDI input
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Old 04-22-2020, 02:55 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozman View Post
Well, I've kinda given up on the whole idea.
Maybe Reaper will surprise me one day.

Nowadays, I use the following to slave tracks to a Chord Progression:

MIDI Snapping:
1) Squaredheads Nora (Sequenced Arp)
2) Melodic Flow (for melodies and basslines)
3) MIDI_KeySnap (JSFX)

Audio Snapping:
1) zplanes's reTune
2) reaTune (JSFX) can take MIDI input
Holy smoke - are you sure you don't want to get into Studio One? 😉

Are your chord progressions part of your REAPER projects, or are they in a separate file?

I think Cockos would do well to license a bunch of the zplane stuff - reTune looks pretty nice. I would gladly pay 20% more for REAPER if it had that stuff - better to have it integrated.

I figure Studio One is using Celemony technology. I could see Steinberg using zplane tech to enhance their VariAudio to handle polyphonic audio.

I wish my crystal ball was working so I could see which DAWs were planning to implement some of this stuff.
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Old 04-23-2020, 08:11 AM   #27
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Well, It seems to always be a thing of workflow.
Studio One is great and all, but it's audio snapping to MiDi Chords is no where near the quality of zplane's retune. And Melodyne is good for snapping to a scale (post editing).

Since zplane's retune does the best job to me for that, I no longer care for a DAW-based approach for snapping audio to chord MIDI. I have a good workflow using Reaper's Routing and folder tracks. Kinda similar to what I do to snap MIDI, just different VST's being used.

My chords are MIDI I build in Reaper. I start with a simple, slow melody to dictate the roots of the chords (and make sure they snap to scale), then I run a custom action to convert those single notes to diatonic chords. And from there, manually do inversions to keep it all tidy, and whatever alterations to the chords for different characteristics.

Reaper has shown me that everything is about personal workflow. That's why I love it. I'm not getting stuck in a DAW's philosophy and working with features that are not the best at what they do. I can instead get the tools that are best for the job.
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Old 04-24-2020, 07:24 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Well, It seems to always be a thing of workflow.
Studio One is great and all, but it's audio snapping to MiDi Chords is no where near the quality of zplane's retune. And Melodyne is good for snapping to a scale (post editing).

Since zplane's retune does the best job to me for that, I no longer care for a DAW-based approach for snapping audio to chord MIDI. I have a good workflow using Reaper's Routing and folder tracks. Kinda similar to what I do to snap MIDI, just different VST's being used.

My chords are MIDI I build in Reaper. I start with a simple, slow melody to dictate the roots of the chords (and make sure they snap to scale), then I run a custom action to convert those single notes to diatonic chords. And from there, manually do inversions to keep it all tidy, and whatever alterations to the chords for different characteristics.

Reaper has shown me that everything is about personal workflow. That's why I love it. I'm not getting stuck in a DAW's philosophy and working with features that are not the best at what they do. I can instead get the tools that are best for the job.
You are spot on when it comes to workflow. It doesn't make sense to jump to a particular DAW for just one must-have feature, if you cannot othewise work with said DAW.

For me, I really need functionality to exist or be accessible from within the DAW itself (think Melodyne access within REAPER via ARA2). I'm a casual user, so if anything slows down inspiration, it's going to be lost if there are too many hoops to jump through.

For example, I'm planning to get Scaler 2 when it is available. It has a capture MIDI function which allows you to work within the Scaler environment for chord sequence building which is tempo synced to your DAW. Once you come up with something usable, you can copy the captured MIDI and paste it into your DAW. Yeah, it's not a "chord track" and does diddly squat for snapping audio to chords, but it will function as a "chord pad", "chord assistant" and even a chord based "MIDI input transformer". If it works out, I may reach out to see how exactly to implement your MIDI chord track functionality.

I primarily use Mixcraft (some think it's a toy, but it is more powerful than it first appears - but its MIDI routing sucks) and have a yet-to-be registered copy of Cubase Pro (I have to see if I can cozy up to their unique/busy workflow), and I'm always testing REAPER.

I'm still holding out hope that Justin will license the Zplane ReTune technology and implement a chord track (after all, who would ever have guessed they would implement a notation editor?!?! ).

And the beat goes on.

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Old 05-26-2020, 08:14 AM   #29
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Melodyne 5 was just released. It supports chord track and scale track. These can be synced with the DAW via ARA 2.

It would be great if Reaper could implement chord track, scale track and ARA 2 sync. This would already be a great help if no further functionality would be implemented.

When a dedicated structure with APIs exists, users could add everything else via scripting.

The current workarounds using regions or items are really unpleasant and compromising.
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:52 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multibody View Post
Melodyne 5 was just released. It supports chord track and scale track. These can be synced with the DAW via ARA 2.

It would be great if Reaper could implement chord track, scale track and ARA 2 sync. This would already be a great help if no further functionality would be implemented.

When a dedicated structure with APIs exists, users could add everything else via scripting.

The current workarounds using regions or items are really unpleasant and compromising.

Oh WOW!
I just watched the new features vid on YouTube, and was blown away. But the last statement the narrator said in the video, "Time for a major update" is so true.

I see the devs have improved the RS5K engine to allow portamento, a really great step in the right direction. So now is the time for another sampling script that utilizes such maybe.

Anyway, with Reaper already supporting ARA2 very well... Oh yes. Native Chord Track functionality would be the "bee's knees" indeed.
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:44 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multibody View Post
Melodyne 5 was just released. It supports chord track and scale track. These can be synced with the DAW via ARA 2.

It would be great if Reaper could implement chord track, scale track and ARA 2 sync. This would already be a great help if no further functionality would be implemented.

When a dedicated structure with APIs exists, users could add everything else via scripting.

The current workarounds using regions or items are really unpleasant and compromising.
Just my prediction, but since Melodyne 5 is doing the heavy lifting for extracting chord information and enabling snapping of audio to chords and scales, REAPER will probably provide a global Chord Track which would be a container to store and display the chord names created by Melodyne (or REAPER), but not have any actual effect on MIDI or audio. It would likely be very similar to the way chord names are displayed in the notation / piano roll editor views.

RE: Studio One, since ARA was co-developed by Celemony and Presonus, there will be tighter integration between Melodyne and Studio One. HOWEVER, I have to believe the Chord Track already present in Studio One was taking advantage of the "plumbing" provided by ARA 2.

It will be interesting to see what happens in other DAWs which support ARA 2, but as of yet do not have a Chord Track.

I would love to be proven wrong by REAPER getting a native chord track.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:43 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusoBob View Post
I just purchased DeCoda as it looked good and the demo version didn't export
But it only does a few chord types.
You can't export the chords, it should a least export them as midi markers.
You have to manually fill the notes in in the piano roll and moving them has no effect on the audio.
So DeCoda supposedly allows the export of MIDI - is it the MIDI notes of the chords?

Am I better off using Melodyne 5 Essential to generate chords?
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:04 PM   #33
Ozman
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The midi exported from Decoda is the midi that you trace within it.
The detected chords are not exportable.
By the way things are looking, Melodyne is going to be that go-to for all of that very soon. It pretty much will be about DAWs being able to take advantage of all it will offer through ARA.

Last edited by Ozman; 06-28-2020 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:12 PM   #34
pbognar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozman View Post
The midi exported from Decoda is the midi that you trace within it.
The detected chords are not exportable.
By the way things are looking, Melodyne is going to the that go-to for all of that very soon. It pretty much will be about DAWs being able to take advantage of all it will offer through ARA.
Thanks
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Old 06-28-2020, 06:07 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozman View Post
The midi exported from Decoda is the midi that you trace within it.
The detected chords are not exportable.
By the way things are looking, Melodyne is going to be that go-to for all of that very soon. It pretty much will be about DAWs being able to take advantage of all it will offer through ARA.
Well, what I was meaning is that the conformance of audio tracks will be handled by Melodyne (best with mono/polyphonic audio). DAWs that support ARA will just need to communicate back and forth what the chords are. DAWs will need to snap to chords themselves, since Melodyne doesn't edit midi.

I also like the way that Melodyne can change the notes (enabled/disabled) based on the chords. That is really cool.

I was thinking the other day how Reaper can attempt to have a chord track, and I thought... maybe the chord track can consist of two tracks.

1) Parent/Folder Track that contains the Chord names in Empty Items
2) A track containing corresponding midi items.

-- another way could simply be to have midi items that only contain one chord each
and the item have the name of the chord as its name.

And later, maybe certain mouse events for those specific items could trigger a popup window to choose chords from the circle of 5ths or degrees of the chosen scale.
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Old 06-28-2020, 06:31 PM   #36
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This creates chords from audio samples
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....26#post2308526
you could also make it so you have them as takes in one track and set to Play All Takes.
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Old 07-04-2020, 02:46 PM   #37
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Being a producers using samples life would be much less complicated +1 please
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Old 11-16-2020, 02:43 PM   #38
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It would be so cool, if Reaper had a chrordtrack and could do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p41tNSwtD8
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Old 11-16-2020, 05:39 PM   #39
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You have the chord track inside Melodyne where you can make changes:

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Old 12-08-2020, 05:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusoBob View Post
You have the chord track inside Melodyne where you can make changes:

Is there a way to grab the chords in the Melodyne chord track and have it populate the regions in REAPER? And then use your script to have MIDI data snap to the chords which were generated by Melodyne?

I see that Melodyne's integration with Cubase 11 is currently a one-way afair - Melodyne can grab chords from the Cubase chord track, but not the other way around. Of course, with Studio One, the chord track communication is bi-directional.
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