Old 02-07-2012, 01:37 PM   #1
dea-man
Human being with feelings
 
dea-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,131
Default Tell me your experience with MIDI.

In your learned opinion and experience, which DAW, is the best, easiest, most musically intuitive, for doing midi drums? (Let me qualify, I am talking about doing human sounding drum parts via midi. Grooves, swing, quantization, etc...)

C'mon now, sound off!
__________________
Please check out my REAPER produced music here: http://soundcloud.com/dea-man
dea-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 02:08 PM   #2
beingmf
Human being with feelings
 
beingmf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 3,926
Default

Unfortunately definitely Logic.
beingmf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 02:16 PM   #3
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

None of them.

I have used a bunch of DAWs and before that sequencers.

The mechanics of programming drums are the same, regardless of the platform.
This is because the nuts and bolts of it all have nothing to do with MIDI and everything to do with how drumming works.

ALL the DAWs and sequencers I have used are perfectly capable of being used to produce good, human-sounding drums, but only by a PERSON who is capable of using them to do so.

You are only fooling yourself if you think there is a magic application out there that will make programming realistic drums somehow easier than any of the others.

THE way to learn how to create human-realistic drums is to learn what drummers do when they play and then learn how to apply that to a drum sequence.

Trust me and dont get caught up in yet another "logic vs cubase vs Sonar vs frutiy loops" debate.
Spend the time learning how drummers play and apply the knowledge.

FWIW I have gotten to the stage where I play in a basic part to get the feel on an e-drum kit and then fix up my mistakes and clumsiness afterwards, but this is the closest I have ever gotten to actually capturing the feel of someone playing a kit.
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 02:37 PM   #4
dea-man
Human being with feelings
 
dea-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,131
Default My reasoning my not have been presented well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
None of them.

I have used a bunch of DAWs and before that sequencers.

The mechanics of programming drums are the same, regardless of the platform.
This is because the nuts and bolts of it all have nothing to do with MIDI and everything to do with how drumming works.

ALL the DAWs and sequencers I have used are perfectly capable of being used to produce good, human-sounding drums, but only by a PERSON who is capable of using them to do so.

You are only fooling yourself if you think there is a magic application out there that will make programming realistic drums somehow easier than any of the others.

THE way to learn how to create human-realistic drums is to learn what drummers do when they play and then learn how to apply that to a drum sequence.

Trust me and dont get caught up in yet another "logic vs cubase vs Sonar vs frutiy loops" debate.
Spend the time learning how drummers play and apply the knowledge.

FWIW I have gotten to the stage where I play in a basic part to get the feel on an e-drum kit and then fix up my mistakes and clumsiness afterwards, but this is the closest I have ever gotten to actually capturing the feel of someone playing a kit.
I am 49 years old and have been playing professionally since 14 years old. I started out on drums and quickly progressed to keyboards, guitars, singing and songwriting. I am a very natural drummer.

I own a Roland V-Drum kit, the TDK-20, top of the line. I feel very comfortable playing my drums live and tightening up the midi tracks or constructing straight from midi via VSTI.

I found there to be a bit of a learning curve with Reaper midi at the start, but I realize now it was no more than my own preconceived ideas and unwillingness to let go of old habits, that kept me from understanding Reapers midi, more quickly.

I've read so many posts about Reaper being behind in their midi editor, and not having experienced a great deal of other midi editors, I asked my question. I use Reaper day in and day out, but I now realize it may be more advantageous to use a different program for midi editing.

The reason I framed my question about midi, with reference to human drumming, is because I considered that to be the benchmark by which I could really tell about other DAW's midi capabilities.

I think I am really asking about user interface and ease of work flow.
__________________
Please check out my REAPER produced music here: http://soundcloud.com/dea-man
dea-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 02:43 PM   #5
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,840
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
...but only by a PERSON who is capable of using them to do so.
Word. If you aren't decent on a kit, don't expect anything decent with MIDI. I pretty much just throw together a few loops and call it done. I've spent days trying to make a good sounding drum track via MIDI, but the reality is that I'm not a drummer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 03:59 PM   #6
zappsunzorn
Human being with feelings
 
zappsunzorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Virginia Beach VA
Posts: 2,269
Default

The new version of Digital Performer will be coming out for windows soon. It has been years since I have used it, but it has a reputation for having great midi capabilities.

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/digita...r-does-windows

It says it supports VST pluggins, but says nothing about VST3.


In the end I am not sure if the difference between Reaper's midi and other software's midi would be significant enough to make a change, unless you were doing a lot of midi orchestrations, and even then I am not sure.

Reapers midi reputation is, I think, a little out of date, mostly based on older versions and impressions made by those older versions, or just hearsay.
zappsunzorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 04:21 PM   #7
Boray
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,347
Default

I think this is a good tip: Adapt your music style to your talents and assets.

If you for example never have played drums or simply don't have any good sounding drum sounds, then maybe it's a good idea to go for a basic drum pattern and a music style where this is appropriate. Apply the same idea for every instrument. This is why my music sounded very techno in the 90's when I only had a computer and a synth. I thought; better that it sounds like what it is (a synth) instead of trying to make it sound like real instruments but sucking at it.
__________________
www.boray.se
Boray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 05:53 PM   #8
slow
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 347
Default

Reaper midi has some issues - you can't access all midi events for example - which is not a problem if you create midi only in Reaper but gets to be a problem if you import files from elsewhere.
Also the midi editor is still sort of "bolted on" so keystrokes are not the same for Midi and audio eg ESC - but maybe you can change that now.
I don't think Reaper allows groove templates (import and extract) yet - but again maybe that has changed. Groove is something you want to be able to apply on an item or selection basis rather than global or track only - not sure which DAWs have that - most have some sort of groove template extraction/application.
re midi drum software: Jamstix can be used to generate very good drum and percussion tracks with a bit of work (and multiple passes)
slow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 12:24 AM   #9
Ferret King
Human being with feelings
 
Ferret King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Litter Box (not acoustically treated)
Posts: 138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
In your learned opinion and experience, which DAW, is the best, easiest, most musically intuitive, for doing midi drums? (Let me qualify, I am talking about doing human sounding drum parts via midi. Grooves, swing, quantization, etc...)

C'mon now, sound off!
I myself...all MIDI packs. As many as you can get. And if there is an original groove you have in mind, spend some time tweaking. I agree it's not about the DAW...my drum tracks are very human like (because a human played them on an e-kit!!) and spent time tuning the details in the midi editor...worth the time though!
__________________
Opus Inevitus
Ferret King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 03:24 AM   #10
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

Excellent! If you are in that situation, you have nothing to worry about.
For really heavy lifting in MIDI editing I still fall back on my fisrst love the Amiga 1200 and Bars n Pipes Pro, which is not an alternative for most folks.
Hvign said that, Reaper MIDI in terms of drum programming I find to be as intuitive and user-friendly as anything else out there.

I have programmed in Sonar, Logic (yuk!) Studio One (yuk again) Cubase (an early version) Independance Studio (obscure but good Japanese program) pro tools and several others.
For me, they were all pretty much the same, with only slight foibles making any difference.

There are good bits and bad bits in all the different sequencers, but I honestly believe that in terms of programmability on the drum side Reaper is no worse than any of the alternatives.
e grateful you can drum reasonably well and have a decent E-kit.

I am a crap drummer and "only" have a TD8. But I do get by.

If it were me, unless you are really having problems with workflow in Reaper that you think you can improve on elsewhere, I would persevere with Reaper.
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 03:26 AM   #11
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slow View Post
Reaper midi has some issues - you can't access all midi events for example
Didn't know that. What cant you access?

I routinely edit CC note sysex, etc. and haven't found anything missing so far that would affect programming, specifically drum parts.

Be very interested to see what I am missing here.
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 03:36 AM   #12
suleiman
Human being with feelings
 
suleiman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 5,604
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
In your learned opinion and experience, which DAW, is the best, easiest, most musically intuitive, for doing midi drums? (Let me qualify, I am talking about doing human sounding drum parts via midi. Grooves, swing, quantization, etc...)

C'mon now, sound off!
dude ! try erratic 3....makea simple drum loop and let erratic do its randomization magic...very natural sounding
suleiman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 03:38 AM   #13
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,164
Default

The only message type I found which isn't exposed to editing is Note Off (where it would be interesting to edit velocity - Note Off positions can of course be edited via note length).
It didn't cause problems with imported MIDI files so far (would be good if slow could be more specific), but I'd really like to get support for them.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 03:41 AM   #14
slow
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 347
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Didn't know that. What cant you access?

I routinely edit CC note sysex, etc. and haven't found anything missing so far that would affect programming, specifically drum parts.

Be very interested to see what I am missing here.
might have been note off events, but I can't remember, I don't user Reaper midi that much - it has been mentioned by others, including linking to midi to text apps that let you see everything. If it hasn't come up for you then good. It proved an issue using Kontakt, which responded to the hidden message.
There also used to be a problem in gluing or trunctating files as well, with messages not being timestamped properly - haven't come across that for a while, but that was when I first used other apps to look at midifiles more fully
slow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 05:21 AM   #15
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

note off is CC120-0 on most every MIDI synth/vsti I know of - why would you need a special decoder ring to find that?

Headscratch smiley here, please....

And what the heck is a MIDI to text app that lets you see "everything"?

There are only control messages, sysex messages (rpn npn etc) and the usual bank and patch switch messages, apart from actual note information.
All of these are easily visible and editable in Reaper.

Unless the MIDI gods have been keeping something secret from me all these years?
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 05:25 AM   #16
slow
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 347
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
note off is CC120-0 on most every MIDI synth/vsti I know of - why would you need a special decoder ring to find that?

Headscratch smiley here, please....

And what the heck is a MIDI to text app that lets you see "everything"?

There are only control messages, sysex messages (rpn npn etc) and the usual bank and patch switch messages, apart from actual note information.
All of these are easily visible and editable in Reaper.

Unless the MIDI gods have been keeping something secret from me all these years?
good to hear it - I guess I was mistaken
slow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 06:08 AM   #17
Stargard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
I own a Roland V-Drum kit, the TDK-20, top of the line. I feel very comfortable playing my drums live and tightening up the midi tracks or constructing straight from midi via VSTI................I think I am really asking about user interface and ease of work flow.
If that's the case, then learning other platforms won't give you any benefits when compared to Reaper. You already have an advantage; you can use a human-to-computer interface, which is instrument specific. What I mean by this; a MIDI-guitar is better for playing guitar parts via a sampler than a keyboard, if you were to record a piano part, your VDrum kit would be the least-optimal interface, a violinist.......and so on.

Yes, in your case, you should think about (or simply ask here) a workflow which will best suit your particular instrument. So for example, splitting the "zones" (kick, hh, snare, tom1/2, etc...) into different tracks when recording, might help you with editing. So make the drum parts multi-timbral, just as someone recording an orchestra piece would do (where he would edit violins, trombones, cellos, etc... on different tracks routed back to the same VST module creating the sound/playing the samples).

As far as "tightening up" the performance goes; you as a drummer know, that certain drummers have certain preferences. Bernard Purdie plays the high hats ahead of the groove; if you are one, who plays them behind the groove, you might simply take (as described above) the HH track and move it ahead of the other tracks (without losing the ability to edit said part on its separate track, using its own grid, so not bound by the overall "grid" of the sequencer, etc...)

All the additional tools (for example, if you want to split said VDrum's input into channels based on note number/part of the drum kit) and MIDI plug ins are available in Reaper and if not, there are many, many great collections available, most of them on top of that, free of charge.

If you have any questions regarding the workflow, or if you have a workflow for your MIDI drums editing and you have certain areas that you feel hold you back from a more "natural" approach to editing your MIDI tracks, feel free to ask.

Just as a sidenote: I used to do a lot of drum programming via Ableton Live and before that via Energy XT 1.4 and what I guess most people miss (independent of their musical background), is something like a "MIDI sampler", which lets you fly in MIDI parts and arrange them as you like, live. Energy XT 1.4, in this regard, was really a stroke of a genius. I had dozens of different grooves, split into "instruments" and just had to arrange them (4/4 kick, 16th hh here/8th there, here a hh on the off-beat only, there a snare roll, etc...) live and on the fly. But there is definitely a lot you can do as far as "MIDI loops" goes to make the workflow faster/more natural by just using them in the exact same way as if you'd use drum loops.
Stargard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 10:19 AM   #18
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
note off is CC120-0 on most every MIDI synth/vsti I know of - why would you need a special decoder ring to find that?

Headscratch smiley here, please....

And what the heck is a MIDI to text app that lets you see "everything"?

There are only control messages, sysex messages (rpn npn etc) and the usual bank and patch switch messages, apart from actual note information.
All of these are easily visible and editable in Reaper.

Unless the MIDI gods have been keeping something secret from me all these years?
Yep, the Gods apparently didn't tell you the whole story .
CC120 is not note off, that's "All sound off". I never in my whole life had to use it.

Note-Off is the message that is sent when you take your finger off the key you just played. It's basically the same structure as Note-On (channel/pitch/velocity), but instead of turning a note on it turns it off. It is no CC message at all, but has it's own message status.
Most of the time it is substituted by Note-On velocity 0, because it's less strain on the MIDI cable that way (if you don't change status, you can get by with sending two bytes instead of three per message). The downside of Note-On velocity 0 is that you can't send a release velocity (how fast the key went up).

Note-Off is not directly visible in Reaper (neither as Note-Off message, nor as Note-On vel. 0). You can only calculate it's position by looking at the "length" of a note, which is shown a property of Note-On events in Reaper, even though it's it's own separate message.

EDIT:

Adding that it's for a reason:
It's by far more comfortable to edit note length instead of the discrete note off events. By deleting/changing status of Note-Offs or by just positioning them wrong (eg before the Note On they are meant to shut up) you very quickly get hanging notes galore. That's why most MIDI sequencers don't show Note Off in their normal mode but provide a special mode where you can see and edit them for those cases where you need it - which is pretty much only when your instrument supports release velocity and you want to tweak them.

I'd be alright with a column in the event list that shows Note Off velocity as a property of Note On messages (but only, when proper Note Off events are used as it makes no sense for Note-on vel. 0).

Last edited by gofer; 02-08-2012 at 10:40 AM.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 12:12 PM   #19
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

So Gofer - it has to be some sort of message, although I was assuming he meant all notes off as you rightly say.

I was under the impression that the note off command was a sysex message exclusive to each synth or vst, but if as you say there is a specific "turn just this note you are playing off" command, it must be viewable from within Reaper somewhere, surely?

Is this a msb lsb function or is there just one command with no data options? (i.e. a switch rather than a command)

And it just occurred to me that I HAVE seen a command something like "strip note on or note off events in Bars n Pipes Pro.
Of course your comment about note length gets the job done regardless.
I am now left wondering why the OP specifically wanted to edit note offs rather than just adjusting length of individual notes.
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 12:18 PM   #20
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Yep, the Gods apparently didn't tell you the whole story .
CC120 is not note off, that's "All sound off". I never in my whole life had to use it.

Note-Off is the message that is sent when you take your finger off the key you just played. It's basically the same structure as Note-On (channel/pitch/velocity), but instead of turning a note on it turns it off. It is no CC message at all, but has it's own message status.
Most of the time it is substituted by Note-On velocity 0, because it's less strain on the MIDI cable that way (if you don't change status, you can get by with sending two bytes instead of three per message). The downside of Note-On velocity 0 is that you can't send a release velocity (how fast the key went up).

Note-Off is not directly visible in Reaper (neither as Note-Off message, nor as Note-On vel. 0). You can only calculate it's position by looking at the "length" of a note, which is shown a property of Note-On events in Reaper, even though it's it's own separate message.

EDIT:

Adding that it's for a reason:
It's by far more comfortable to edit note length instead of the discrete note off events. By deleting/changing status of Note-Offs or by just positioning them wrong (eg before the Note On they are meant to shut up) you very quickly get hanging notes galore. That's why most MIDI sequencers don't show Note Off in their normal mode but provide a special mode where you can see and edit them for those cases where you need it - which is pretty much only when your instrument supports release velocity and you want to tweak them.

I'd be alright with a column in the event list that shows Note Off velocity as a property of Note On messages (but only, when proper Note Off events are used as it makes no sense for Note-on vel. 0).
And P.S. when I was doing midi backing tracks for other people I routinely sent a CC120 before the CC127 at the start of every sequence, then a GM or GS reset depending on what module they had, followed by all the usual guff.
Belt and braces but it did eliminate any possibility of stuff hanging over from the lat sequence played. Same went for always resetting GM/GS banks.

Early on I had a few complaints from people who had played a Polka set followed by a rock and roll set, only to find the bass guitar part played by Tubby the Tuba!
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 01:33 PM   #21
plamuk
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,221
Default

jjos2xl for the mpc1000/2500

http://emancipator.bandcamp.com/track/anthem-nym-remix

these drums are all midi
plamuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 02:46 PM   #22
dea-man
Human being with feelings
 
dea-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,131
Default Fruity Loops.

Can anyone comment on the drum sequencer in FL10. I have had a chance to play around a little with it and it was kinda "fun".

Has anyone used FL extensively or can anyone comment on other programs where you can build a rhythm in a similar way?

What programs are actually "fun" when construction a rhythm or a song, in your opinion?

Maybe I should start a different thread.
__________________
Please check out my REAPER produced music here: http://soundcloud.com/dea-man
dea-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 02:47 PM   #23
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

Sorry nym, but they SOUND MIDI, too.

I suspect the OP is into a rather less synthetic style of music than yours, good though it may be.

My excuse is that I am a very very old pharte.
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 02:54 PM   #24
plamuk
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,221
Default

^ perhaps. but that's not been the perspective of a good many listeners
including one youtube commenter who lauded my "use of a real drumset instead of touchpad drums"
despite the fact that i play pads, not conventional drums
plamuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 04:39 PM   #25
dea-man
Human being with feelings
 
dea-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,131
Default LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
My excuse is that I am a very very old pharte.
Hahahahahah!
__________________
Please check out my REAPER produced music here: http://soundcloud.com/dea-man
dea-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 05:17 PM   #26
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
I was under the impression that the note off command was a sysex message exclusive to each synth or vst, but if as you say there is a specific "turn just this note you are playing off" command, it must be viewable from within Reaper somewhere, surely?
Yep, of course you can see it in a MIDI logger. Insert ReaControlMIDI and show it's logger. Press a key on your keyboard and you see a note-on. Release the key and you see a note-off message in all it's beauty (or a note-on vel. 0, depends on which method your MIDI keyboard uses).

A note-on, some C on channel 1, vel 105:
90 30 69
A note-off of that note vel 54:
80 30 36
Stopping the note with note-on vel. 0 method:
90 30 00

the first digit is called the Status of the message. 9 is note on, 8 is note off. CC would be B, Pitch bend E. SysEx strings always have to start with F0.


If you recorded this little opus, you'll see a single Note message in Reaper's MIDI editor with a length property. The "length" is calculated by Reaper (Note-off-time minus note-on-time).
The only really interesting thing to edit is it's velocity. Instruments can make use of release velocity, eg patches can just use it to control the release time in an ADSR envelope or use different release samples altogether.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 05:39 PM   #27
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 12,602
Default

Heh heh, gofer I think you're showing off again..

However with your infinite knowledge I have a question.

In Kontakt there are a lot of instruments with release sampes usually all in a separate group(s). So how are these release samples triggered, is it note off velocity or is it based on the note on velocity? I'm asking because I think it's the latter but don't know for sure.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 06:17 PM   #28
Sigilus
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,763
Default

Cubase, but only because that's where I started with that stuff.

Now, probably any (or none) of them. They're not very good at sequencing humanized midi. Reaper falls a bit short, actually. But I can make do
Sigilus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 06:52 PM   #29
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24,768
Default

Quote:
I am 49 years old and have been playing professionally since 14 years old.
I assume this places you in a category that many others aren't in. Meaning that most complaints about MIDI in general in DAWs probably applies to mid to heavy midi editing more than simply laying down a good beat. However, if you're asking in the realm of doing the heavier ITB midi-centric stuff I don't really know. Logic was pretty darn powerful with MIDI even back in its PC days but it and Nuendo are the only ones I have much experience with outside of Reaper. Then again, I do very little MIDI, 99.9% of it is my playing instruments and recording audio unless I decide to go on the occassional electronic musical foray which I do from time to time.
__________________
If it requires a null test to find it, it is by definition minuscule.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 07:05 PM   #30
chrisharbin
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,031
Default

Midi?





rinse, repeat. All midi editors are a PITA imho lol. Yeah, cubarse wasn't too bad but it's still midi.
chrisharbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 08:15 PM   #31
Lawrence
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,502
Default

Nothing quite like Cubase. I say that only based on the sheer depth of midi editing and not really having used Logic. It's not a "piano roll" thing, it's a "you can make any kind of edit you want in seconds" thing.

Highly underrated and not fully understood. Very powerful.. especially when you assign them to macros. Sorry, but Reaper's midi edit actions (currently, afaik) couldn't possibly duplicate the sheer speed of the midi logical editor.
Lawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 08:47 PM   #32
dea-man
Human being with feelings
 
dea-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,131
Default Anybody?

Has nobody had any experience with FL10?
__________________
Please check out my REAPER produced music here: http://soundcloud.com/dea-man
dea-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 09:29 PM   #33
Lawrence
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,502
Default

FL 10 arguably has one of the best piano roll editors, imo. If you reduce midi editng down to only that, it's hard to beat on a practical level. Of course, like most things midi editing isn't a one dimensional thing. But for sure, the piano roll editor in FL Studio is pretty well done.

It's midi is pretty well designed overall though... even if not all that conventional in the sense of a Cubase and similar.

Anyway, I often refer to Cubase because it's midi editing is kind of multi-dimensional. Ranges, notes, whatever, can all be attacked directy from multple angles or methods. For depth of editing it's probably the standard. Of course, not everyone needs that.

But it has... what... 5-6 different midi editors? Let's count them...

1. Key Editor + in place.
2. List editor which also has a graphic key editor component.
3. Drum Editor.
4. Score editor.
5. Logical Editor.
6. Input transformer, which is 4 real time midi logical editors, per track.

As relates to running an edit action for midi data, there's very little (if anything practical) that it can't do with midi data.

Last edited by Lawrence; 02-08-2012 at 09:51 PM.
Lawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 12:25 AM   #34
winforddenning
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 6
Default

I suspect the OP is into a rather less synthetic style of music than yours, good though it may be.

winforddenning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 01:20 AM   #35
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Yep, of course you can see it in a MIDI logger. Insert ReaControlMIDI and show it's logger. Press a key on your keyboard and you see a note-on. Release the key and you see a note-off message in all it's beauty (or a note-on vel. 0, depends on which method your MIDI keyboard uses).

A note-on, some C on channel 1, vel 105:
90 30 69
A note-off of that note vel 54:
80 30 36
Stopping the note with note-on vel. 0 method:
90 30 00

the first digit is called the Status of the message. 9 is note on, 8 is note off. CC would be B, Pitch bend E. SysEx strings always have to start with F0.


If you recorded this little opus, you'll see a single Note message in Reaper's MIDI editor with a length property. The "length" is calculated by Reaper (Note-off-time minus note-on-time).
The only really interesting thing to edit is it's velocity. Instruments can make use of release velocity, eg patches can just use it to control the release time in an ADSR envelope or use different release samples altogether.
exactly - you are into msb lsb etc etc which is standard stuff for most MIDI sequencers, or so I thought. Maybe I have been spoilt by BPP all these years.
Keep seeing people complaining about how difficult something is in MIDI that is part of the standard feature set in BPP. Thinking I should stay how I am and do all serious MIDI in BPP. It works and I know it inside out.

(grin) Maybe the OP should buy an Amiga 1200?
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 01:22 AM   #36
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Nothing quite like Cubase. I say that only based on the sheer depth of midi editing and not really having used Logic. It's not a "piano roll" thing, it's a "you can make any kind of edit you want in seconds" thing.

Highly underrated and not fully understood. Very powerful.. especially when you assign them to macros. Sorry, but Reaper's midi edit actions (currently, afaik) couldn't possibly duplicate the sheer speed of the midi logical editor.
but it doesn't have a hybrid stave.

Fastest way of mousing in a part I have ever used, bar none.
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 03:19 AM   #37
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
exactly - you are into msb lsb etc etc
Nope. At least I don't think.
Not in the sense the terms are normally used in MIDI. When I hear MSB/LSB, I am thinking of CC messages like CC7 being volume MSB and CC39 being volume LSB. Or CC99 being NRPN MSB and CC98 it's LSB counterpart. They still are all CC events, sent in pairs when more values than 128 are needed.
Note-Off is a full blown 3-byte message type of it's own, not an LSB "partner-event" of Note-On.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 03:59 AM   #38
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,941
Default

very rusty on this stuff as I don't use my old MIDI external hardware much these days but most of the system messages I remember sending and receiving could actually do more than just state the most and least significant bits. I have a MIDI spec book somewhere with all that stuff in it, but again it may well be that what I was doing was specific to the Roland gear I have always used.

Trouble is, the sysex and other non-CC messaging system in BPP is so good I don't ever recall struggling to do anything of that nature at all, it was all just - there.

All these plugins that we have to use in Reaper were presented as a list in text or icon form and were 100% available from anywhere in the system and could simply be dragged onto the MIDI timeline where you wanted them.

Sorry this is getting way off topic.....
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2012, 05:11 AM   #39
anokah
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 409
Default

I would say Renoise. But i hate programming drums in a piano roll. As for Reapers Midi, I´ve never had any trouble with it, but my needs are probably limited. But if you want to check out a shitty midi editor, check out Ableton Live. I kinda love the program, but the more i try to make sense of the midi editor, the more frustrated and incredulous i become that an app that is so focused on making things easy has such shitty midi.
anokah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 11:15 AM   #40
Lawrence
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
but it doesn't have a hybrid stave.

Fastest way of mousing in a part I have ever used, bar none.
I can't say I'm familiar with that one so... word taken.

Anyway, my Cubase comments weren't really about mousing in notes, but just editing midi data in general, jumping into the data from just about anywhere and making changes. Many complex data edits can be done without ever leaving arrange or even opening a key or list editor.

But yeah, it's not the best at everything.
Lawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.