Windows-10, final thughts? Time is short...

[Reaktor:[Dave]]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

You can't have any "login", even for this forum, if the password isn't stored in some form on the remote system you are logging into even if that is an encrypted hash.

It is a completely different thing if OneDrive knows your plaintext password or only knows if what you entered into the password field during registration is the same as what you entered now.

In the context of privacy and data collection, Lazarus said that he wants services to know his password so they can authenticate him. However, authentication using sensitive data stored in plain text is highly insecure as my links have explained and Joaquins summarized. Long story short: nobody has a clue what your password is. They have scrambled data and can only check if what you have entered is true or false.

That's why you can only reset your password but cannot retrieve it. If you can retrieve it, quit the service. And kill that password.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Reaktor:[Dave]

It is a completely different thing if OneDrive knows your plaintext password or only knows if what you entered into the password field during registration is the same as what you entered now.
.

Absolutely, care to show where it saves a plain text password in the privacy or service policy? In addition I'm not even sure ISO 27001/2, ISO 27018, SSAE16 SOC1 Type II would allow it and AFAIK they and Google are certified to all of those standards and outside auditing to confirm compliance of those security standards.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by paulheu

I know..

I was just explaining the intention of the text and used your quote as a springboard to do so.

[Reaktor:[Dave]]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Absolutely, care to show where it saves a plain text password in the privacy or service policy? In addition I'm not even sure ISO 27001/2, ISO 27018, SSAE16 SOC1 Type II would allow it and AFAIK they and Google are certified to all of those standards and outside auditing to confirm compliance of those security standards.

I'm not the one saying they store plain text passwords. I explained what they store, after all...

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Reaktor:[Dave]

I'm not the one saying they store plain text passwords. I explained what they store, after all...

Fair enough. I now see Laz is basically stating the same thing I am which is that something has to be stored on the other end in order to actually perform authentication.

[imispgh]

PLEASE pay attention to why W10 is free. It uses you. The privacy issues are huge. It appears you can resolve that with making setting changes.

I partitioned my drive and run W7 or W10. W10 runs fine so far.

(I actually partitioned it after the fact with EaseUS Partition Master. Awesome tool)

[imispgh]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

Before too much longer, they may not need them anymore. Private companies seem to be doing a fine job of harvesting personal data, as if plucking dumb turnips from the ground...

AdID# 27vlw0oasdfl2339f334
Age 45
Hair short sandy blonde
Weight 186 lbs.
Height 6 ft.
Green eyes
Bachelor in communications
Married to AdID#7g0sd0fl2030303
3 kids AdID#1023lfsdfa2340 AdID#10flsdlfo230f02v AdID#1023rodlflsldasdf
Is between jobs
Is a homeowner
Annual income of $47k
Drives a grey 2010 Honda van
Purchased milk and bread from Krogers on 42nd St. seven minutes ago
Texted AdID#7g0sd0fl2030303 two minutes ago, "on my way"
Is wearing a yellow and white striped golf tee and blue jeans, brown shoes
Likes brunettes
Got an erection 3.3 times today
Subscription to Cabin & Forest magazine
...
Purchase classification score 3
Available funds score 5.9
Return score 6.5
Impulsive purchase score 6.5
Social media response 4.2
...
Natural political score -5.2
Effective political score 2.7
...

Where is your health data? Skeletons? And those of your children including whereabouts? Where are the phone numbers and SSNs? Creditors? Credit history? Purchases? All sites visited? Try not to be so naive.

[Jae.Thomas]

windows 10 upgrade went great.

did it hours before a session (had a system image just in case).

Then again, I'm always "hours" before some kind of "Session" lately. so it's not a huge deal.

[imispgh]

There is an easy solution for privacy. Opt In laws

No data is copied, stored or used without permission either short or long term. When you want to go to a site, join or use software they should list all of the types of privacy you would give up with pros and negative impacts. Then you Opt In.

[David Else]

All the 'nothing to hide nothing to fear' people are simply politically naive. Today you may have the Green Party, tomorrow it could be the Nazi's back in power. Giving away your personal data is dangerous, even if you trust the companies/government today. It's never getting deleted, do you want all that baggage hanging round your neck the rest of your life?!

First thing any dictator would do is seaze the data and round up the undesirables, it's happened throughout history. You may think it could never happen... that's what previous victims imagined too!

Once you think it through it's simply a case of how much you value convenience vs your/your family's personal security. Everything in life is a risk, if you want 100% security you need to go offline and use only cash. This is going too far for most people, but we could all do a lot more to keep our data private. Here's some help:

https://prism-break.org/en/ << free non spying software for all OS's
https://www.torproject.org/ << the most famous anonymous web browser

Win 10 looks good otherwise, I might use it if i can find an article that persuades me that all the spyware can really be turned off.

[karbomusic]

It's never getting deleted, do you want all that baggage hanging round your neck the rest of your life?!

You should log off right now and cut your internet cable. I think knowing there is a risk with storing information anywhere is a 'duh' moment. Not a single person here is saying the world is rainbows and unicorns without risk.

[richie43]

Great additional Win10 thread here....
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...=1#post1552846
A DAW maker's report on their own support of Windows 10 as an awesome DAW OS......

[The Telenator]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

I'd be pissed off if Microsoft/Apple/Whoever didn't store my passwords for using their services because I'd never be able to log in.

Uh, your browser / PC stores most all passwords. MS has basically no part in that.

[The Telenator]

Originally Posted by richie43

Great additional Win10 thread here....
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...=1#post1552846
A DAW maker's report on their own support of Windows 10 as an awesome DAW OS......

That's the Rok BoX people, the ones who charge you $2k+ for a PC you could build for less than a thousand. Funny, too, how they advertise heavily that they still offer Windows 7. Note also that they couldn't even spell Cockos Reaper correctly in their list of tested DAWs.

I think we've all agreed that performance is somewhat improved in Win 10. Most of the discussion has been about all the other hassles and issues -- and there are plenty.

[The Telenator]

Originally Posted by paulheu

OK, here's my take on this:


Does Microsoft collect personal data?
Yes

Is this data always available in Human readable form?
No, it requires decoding and processing

Can anyone (within MSFT) access this data?
No

Is it easy to get access to a MSFT DC, physically or electronically?
No, it is extremely hard if not near impossible

Do they do so to sell it and make a profit off of it?
No

Do they use it to be able to better target you as far as adds go?
Yes

Do they need it to be able to make their services work?
Yes

Does them collecting this data benefit you are a user?
Yes, certainly


Do you have options to disable?
Yes, with obvious effect on usability of OS features

Do they need to make these options more obvious?
Maybe

Should they offer one big(ger) NO button?
Maybe

Should they be forced to do this?
They won't be


Does Cortana collect unreasonable amounts of data?
No, not any more than any personal assistant would in real life.

Do they listen in on your conversations?
No

Do they collect and store voice data?
When you volunteer it for the purpose of eg. using Cortana

I know you have denied this in other MS threads, but I can't help but come away from your posts thinking that you are a Microsoft employee. I don't believe you are, but kindly explain how you know even half of what you posted here. Some of these remarks really need source links to be anywhere near believable. Even some MS employees don't have this info.

[paulheu]

MSFT could not afford to hire me

But seriously, what in my comments is it that has you wondering?

[The Telenator]

Originally Posted by paulheu

MSFT could not afford to hire me

But seriously, what in my comments is it that has you wondering?

Let's start with absolutely no sources and a complete lack of proof for your assertions.

[paulheu]

So I take it you really are just arguing here. Please point out which assertions you refer to as most of what I wrote is opinion. I'll post my comments below, feel free to provide any evidence to the contrary if you must. Remember you are making accusations here so the burden of proof is on you here, not me.

---

Does Microsoft collect personal data?
Yes (fact)

Is this data always available in Human readable form?
No, it requires decoding and processing (sensible assertion)

Can anyone (within MSFT) access this data?
No (I know quite a few people in MSFT so..)

Is it easy to get access to a MSFT DC, physically or electronically?
No, it is extremely hard if not near impossible (In my work I frequently run in to this 'issue'. Their DataCenters are seriously locked down in any way)

Do they do so to sell it and make a profit off of it?
No (I very much do not believe this to be the case, not directly anyway. Obviously there's profit it filtering this data through process to feed applicable adds etc..)

Do they use it to be able to better target you as far as adds go?
Yes (obviously)

Do they need it to be able to make their services work?
Yes (obviously)

Does them collecting this data benefit you are a user?
Yes, certainly (obviously, personal experience)


Do you have options to disable?
Yes, with obvious effect on usability of OS features (see the install process)

Do they need to make these options more obvious?
Maybe (opinion)

Should they offer one big(ger) NO button?
Maybe (opinion)

Should they be forced to do this?
They won't be (opinion)


Does Cortana collect unreasonable amounts of data?
No, not any more than any personal assistant would in real life. (I'm not seeing anything in the T&C as far as what cortana does or uses that any PA would not do as well)

Do they listen in on your conversations?
No (I do not wear TFH and unless you can prove otherwise believe this to be true)

Do they collect and store voice data?
When you volunteer it for the purpose of eg. using Cortana (they need to for some purposes, thinking they globally store this data is just nuts and again TFH)

[cyrano]

Originally Posted by paulheu

So I take it you really are just arguing here. Please point out which assertions you refer to as most of what I wrote is opinion. I'll post my comments below, feel free to provide any evidence to the contrary if you must. Remember you are making accusations here so the burden of proof is on you here, not me.

---
Do they do so to sell it and make a profit off of it?
No (I very much do not believe this to be the case, not directly anyway. Obviously there's profit it filtering this data through process to feed applicable adds etc..)

Of course they sell it. It's in the Windows 10 EULA ("share with selected partners" is the euphemism, I believe). That's the way you pay for Windows 10. There's nothing really wrong with it, besides the fact that they could be more upfront about it.

The data should be anonymized, but that's exactly where I think your privacy is getting ruined for big "partners". Anyone with access to massive amounts of data is probably capable of de-anonymizing the data set. I'm not thinking NSA, but any reasonably big publicity agency or any data aggregator with own database handling.

One day, the aggregators will get some data to link some of the stuff they have been collecting for years to your identity, even if it is just your typing behaviour...

[paulheu]

Originally Posted by cyrano

Of course they sell it. It's in the Windows 10 EULA ("share with selected partners" is the euphemism, I believe). That's the way you pay for Windows 10. There's nothing really wrong with it, besides the fact that they could be more upfront about it.

Fair point..

[Aymara]

Originally Posted by paulheu

Fair point..

Nonsense ... the same happens to people buying a full licence, so don't call it fair!

Fair is, when buying a mobile app removes adds.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by cyrano

Of course they sell it. It's in the Windows 10 EULA ("share with selected partners" is the euphemism, I believe). That's the way you pay for Windows 10.

You've got this entirely backwards - Windows 10 is not free. The only thing free about it is that for a single year Win 7 and 8 users can upgrade to it at no cost. MS will still get the same income they always had for sales of Windows on new devices. Which is the vast majority of actual Windows sales.

All of the money they make from direct (important word) sales from the Store will no doubt compensate for the relatively small reduction in income from the temporary free upgrade. And people on Windows 10 will get more from Windows 10 on Phone, which is one of the major cash cows they are looking at along with Surface.

Apple got the biggest market cap in the world through iPhone, iPad and iStore so it would be stupid beyond measure for Microsoft to risk a their slice of that pie by doing anything other than what they are directly saying and are legally obliged to do. Creating a (resettable/disposable) advertising ID is for the benefit of developers, but they are not selling the information, they are hoping that the tools they put in place will make the Windows Store more attractive.

Because that's where the real money is. That + device sales + continued income from Windows 10 sales of course.

[The Telenator]

Originally Posted by cyrano

Of course they sell it. It's in the Windows 10 EULA ("share with selected partners" is the euphemism, I believe). That's the way you pay for Windows 10. There's nothing really wrong with it, besides the fact that they could be more upfront about it.

Spot on. And I believe Paul's "Fair point" is his euphemism for "I don't know what I'm talking about".

[ivansc]

aaaaand........ back to my original point. As with any other software, nobody is forced to buy into the upgrade or indeed to keep using either MS or Apples stuff.

I for one would love to go all Linux tomorrow if it was practical to do so.

And I still miss AmigaOS

[paulheu]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

Spot on. And I believe Paul's "Fair point" is a euphemism for "I don't know what I'm talking about".

You are all entitled to your opinion and to some degree I can see the point you are making but let's try and stick to the argument here. There is no need to get personal.

[cyrano]

Originally Posted by Aymara

Nonsense ... the same happens to people buying a full licence, so don't call it fair!

Fair is, when buying a mobile app removes adds.

No it doesn't. A part of the market for MS, is corporate upgrades. They don't want any spyware on their OS that they themselves will be pushing to thousands of PC's...

Even the 100$ Win10 Pro license allows to switch off auto updates, if needed. Again, nothing out of the ordinary. And if you are using a computer professionally, shouldn't you be buying a Pro license, as it also supports more ram?

I see MS making a remarkable difference to the past. For instance, there is also a Win10 for Raspberry Pi (an ARM soc). And there are several MS employees, properly identified, to actually help people on the Raspberry forum. It's not a complete OS with a gui, it's more of a runtime for VB and .net development.

Another example: MS recently gave a million dollars to an open source project. Sorry, forgot which one. I didn't think that would have happened in Ballmer's days.

But I think MS should provide a clear opt-in. And a 90 day demo mode if you opt out. That should make it clear to all of us and would hopefully stop the whining.

All OSes, very few exceptions, are tracked. All browsers, except torbrowser, are fully tracked. We run adblockers and stuff and accept that. Why shouldn't MS get a piece of the cake?

[karbomusic]

It's not a complete OS with a gui, it's more of a runtime for VB and .net development.

It's basically Windows Sever "Core" but even smaller; it's called Windows Nano Server. Doesn't even have a GUI and is only a couple hundred MB for the complete install. It looks pretty cool and I'm about to try to install it on a Raspberry for some IOT stuff I'm into. It can also run ASPNET apps which is also cool.

Here's the link to the blog that has more info that I was just checking out last night. It doesn't even allow the DNS role which I wish it did because I also wanted to make a Raspberry DNS server with it that I could throw in a corner somewhere instead of having to run a dedicated VM.

[cerendir]

OK, well, I installed 10 on my lappy today. Performance wise it's pretty similar to Win 8, though it loads A LOT faster. Win 8 wasn't slow by any means, but 10 boots in seconds. Aside from that, no big difference. REAPER runs at the same amount of CPU % at the same buffer settings. All programs I've tried so far work fine. The upgrade was completely painless and took less than 1.5 hours, including download time.

It looks like shit though. It's so flat and plain that it's gone beyond simplistic design into "unfinished looking" territory. OTOH, that's better than busy, tasteless graphics extravaganza I suppose. And if there isn't already (haven't checked) there will probably be an uxtheme patch out soon along with a bunch of nice third party themes.

I'm going to evaluate it for a while before I decide whether to upgrade the Win 7 installation on my stationary machine. Judging from initial impressions, I really don't see the point in upgrading TBH.

[The Telenator]

ivansc: "... nobody is forced to buy into the upgrade or indeed to keep using either MS or Apples stuff."

LINUX never made it to the winners circle, so ... aside from MS or MAC, there are no other options. So, yes, we are forced to use one or the other. And making the switch is no minor thing, really.

[Aymara]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

LINUX never made it to the winners circle ...

That depends, what we are talking about. If we talk of private desktops and notebooks you are right, but if we talk about company servers, Linux plays an important role here and there.

Apple OTOH is more a private client OS than a company OS nowadays, because first Apple's server is a joke and second Apple boycotts virtualisation of it's server. So Apple's OSX is nowadays only found in a few small companies like lawyer and medical offices and a few marketing departments.

[The Telenator]

Interesting details and observations, Aymara. I must admit, my knowledge of LINUX does not go very deep (even though I am now surfing and usually do browse the web in LINUX)!

[Aymara]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

I must admit, my knowledge of LINUX does not go very deep (even though I am now surfing and usually do browse the web in LINUX)!

That's an interesting point more and more people are thinking of ... using Linux for surfing the web. I think people do it for two reasons, they expect better privacy and they have less malware trouble.

But I fear, those days are over ... Ubuntu e.g. had some bad press regarding privacy issues and even security holes are more and more often reported in Linux press. Furthermore NSA & Co track everything even on Linux!

Nevertheless Windows has still the largest risk regarding malware.

I think the safest way is surfing the web with a virtual machine. Set it up e.g. with free Virtualbox and make a backup of the virtual HDD right after install. That way a fallback in case of an infection is done in a few minutes. This way you could even use Windows with Flash and Java and only a free virus scanner. With Windows 10 this can be done completely free, if you register for the Insider Program ... the downside is, that all your activity will be tracked. But nowadays each browser has a lot to tell about you, no matter which OS

[Softsynth]

If it is the potential for a corrupt future government that you worry about, or you are paranoid enough to think you are living with one now and in an age when everyone's data is open who would you investigate?, who would you show most interest in? Joe Average with his naive, everyman Windows and security measures or the guys hiding behind layers of extra security, using obscure systems, living as a hermit, behind a firewall?
Big business getting your medical record, credit history and so on is much more potentially troublesome, but has anything changed in this regard with Win10?

That said I do think that the free upgrade angle is a Trojan horse designed to get away with as much targeted advertising as an additional stream of revenue for Microsoft. If they had merely added this to a boxed retail upgrade without the option of the free upgrade making this an accepted practice first then the media would be up in arms.

Of course Microsoft have also chosen this path because of the development of similar business models in the market place, and the generally poor reception of Win 8 by PC users.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Aymara

That's an interesting point more and more people are thinking of ... using Linux for surfing the web. I think people do it for two reasons, they expect better privacy and they have less malware trouble.

But I fear, those days are over ... Ubuntu e.g. had some bad press regarding privacy issues and even security holes are more and more often reported in Linux press. Furthermore NSA & Co track everything even on Linux!

Nevertheless Windows has still the largest risk regarding malware.

I think the safest way is surfing the web with a virtual machine. Set it up e.g. with free Virtualbox and make a backup of the virtual HDD right after install. That way a fallback in case of an infection is done in a few minutes. This way you could even use Windows with Flash and Java and only a free virus scanner. With Windows 10 this can be done completely free, if you register for the Insider Program ... the downside is, that all your activity will be tracked. But nowadays each browser has a lot to tell about you, no matter which OS

Although I know basically nothing about this stuff, this all seems pretty reasonable to me Aymara.

[msea]

I just installed it no probs... it works with ASIO4ALL and didn't disrupt anything, as far as I can see.

[paulheu]

Welcome to Edge..

[ivansc]

With or without you?

[paulheu]

More a 'Where the streets..' person myself..

[msea]

Originally Posted by paulheu

Welcome to Edge..

Yeah, I do like it. I suppose one could have done Print Screen, copy, and then done the same thing with their image editor... But edge is so much more immediate.

Right now I'm disabling everything I don't need to get ram usage down. It's just a touch more than my stripped down Windows7, but I think I can mimimize it some more...

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

ivansc: "... nobody is forced to buy into the upgrade or indeed to keep using either MS or Apples stuff."

LINUX never made it to the winners circle, so ... aside from MS or MAC, there are no other options. So, yes, we are forced to use one or the other. And making the switch is no minor thing, really.

You lead a very sheltered life.

Tons of alternative OS out there. All depends how compatible you want or ned to be with the mainstream ones.

Just google operating systems. You might get a shock.

I have been a OS9-OSK user, an AmigaOS user, a Unix user (and by inference Linux) cmp user, plus a bunch of others none of which belong to Apple or Microsoft, many of which are STILL in current use - Just check out Microware's client list.