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Old 11-30-2012, 12:09 AM   #1
hopi
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Default A Newbie's Guide to Multi-Out VSTi Routing

EDIT: revised and updated Dec 04, 2012

Please download this version again... and sorry for all the hassles... the stash has been mean to me lately!

Newly revised and uploaded to the stash:
click on the link below to go there and download it.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/14707/Reape...ide-2.0.1a.zip


The intention is to give a step by step guide with pictures and examples about how to manually set up the routing for a Multi-Out VSTi.

Since this issue comes up over and over for new users, I'm hoping this might kill a hundred birds with one stone [so to speak].

It uses the free version of Sample Tank as an example since anyone can get and use that.. for free.
[Thank you IK Multimedia guys ]

There is a read me text inside the zip file.

Although it is for New Users, I'd appreciate any feedback and thoughts from the old hands.

Amen.

PS: I want to be sure that Dark Star gets as much credit for this guide as I do... [actually I don't need any.. ] Because he has hung in with me through 4 or 5 rounds of proof reading and editing and corrections that he spotted, etc. [I'm so damn sloppy when it comes to some things - and I can't spell wurff a damm]
Thanks BIG TIME Dark Star!
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:17 AM   #2
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Hopi,
Very nice contribution to the community. I have a couple suggestions for you to consider:

1. You might consider putting the "So What Exactly IS the Goal?" section farther up. My guess is that most newbies would already have figured out how to do the stuff you describe at first in the guide. It's the multi-out part that is confusing.

2. In step 6, you asked them to arm the VSTi track, and change the input to "record disable". Is this really necessary? I have never done this, and have not noticed any problems. Just seems like an extra step, with no explanation of "why" (which might confuse newbies.)

3. On page 11, in the part where you want to record the audio, you tell them to Arm the audio tracks and press record. But I could not find anywhere in the document where you told them that the record mode for those tracks must be set to record Output. If it's in there, it's buried, and I think that needs to be highlighted.

You obviously spent some time with this. Very generous of you.

Chapter 2 might be a similar set of instructions for a Drum VSTi, where all the midi is on the VSTi track, with just the audio tracks being separated. I guess that's a little easier, since Reaper will set that up automatically.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:56 AM   #3
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Just a fast PS here:
I will be doing a few typo edits and changes to the PDF soon.
What is there for now IS useable so you can get that and later get the newest version...

KevinW... ok let's see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
Hopi,
Very nice contribution to the community. I have a couple suggestions for you to consider:

1. You might consider putting the "So What Exactly IS the Goal?" section farther up. My guess is that most newbies would already have figured out how to do the stuff you describe at first in the guide. It's the multi-out part that is confusing.

----yeah, well no way to know what is in each newbie mind, eh? I have written and worked with quite a few of them both here and on the phone... I guess my thought is to get them through the frustration and to be able to do a manual set up... after that they hopefully can get more creative with routing. My personal experience with may new users is that they have 'figured' it out totally hair-balled, thereby creating more problems than they solved... I'm trying to get them cleared up on that.

2. In step 6, you asked them to arm the VSTi track, and change the input to "record disable". Is this really necessary? I have never done this, and have not noticed any problems. Just seems like an extra step, with no explanation of "why" (which might confuse newbies.)

----well it's not to confuse them, it's to prevent them from doing any recording to that track... "You" may choose to not do it of course, but it shows them that this possibility exists.
As we all know, in reaper you can do things many different ways... but I have to draw the line[s] somewhere for the intent of a 'newbie' guide, ..right?

3. On page 11, in the part where you want to record the audio, you tell them to Arm the audio tracks and press record. But I could not find anywhere in the document where you told them that the record mode for those tracks must be set to record Output. If it's in there, it's buried, and I think that needs to be highlighted.

--- oh damn... that was in there an not it's not... sh*t... the perils of late night work, eh? Totally needed and I'll fix that!

You obviously spent some time with this. Very generous of you.

Chapter 2 might be a similar set of instructions for a Drum VSTi, where all the midi is on the VSTi track, with just the audio tracks being separated. I guess that's a little easier, since Reaper will set that up automatically.
--- yeah, maybe... but to tell you the truth, from what I've seen, for a newbie to have reaper do it's 'automatic' thing is not enough for them to begin to understand what reaper did.. or to understand basic routing. Also, for drum vsti's one may or may not want it all on one midi track... but that could be another whole guide.... we'll see.

Thanks very much for your thoughts and comments.... I am a terrible editor and proof reader of my own work!
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:32 PM   #4
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Hi Hopi - Many thanks for the work you are doing in this, it sure does help to put us Newbies on the right path and shows us more possibilities that Reaper presents. I keep on Learning!!!
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:46 AM   #5
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The PDF has been revised and is updated on the stash as of now...

Even if you have dl'd this you might want to replace it with the new version.

There may well still be more corrections and revisions yet to do, but I think this one is better.

DS... perhaps you'd give it a proof reading?
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:45 AM   #6
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... are you sure ?
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:22 AM   #7
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You've been blogged
http://reaperblog.net/2012/12/a-newb...-vsti-routing/
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:55 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
... are you sure ?
hahaha DS... you more than most must know I am NEVER sure...

I'm ALWAYS right but NEVER shure...

btw... I see this has been blogged now... ok, I think you deserve some mention in the credit if you want it I'd be happy to point that out.

I don't really care that it is known as 'hopi's guide'... What I really intended was just to have a link we could point at whenever this repeating problem\question comes up.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
... What I really intended was just to have a link we could point at whenever this repeating problem\question comes up.
I have to chuckle... You're not suggesting RTFM are you?
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post

btw... I see this has been blogged now... ok, I think you deserve some mention in the credit if you want it I'd be happy to point that out.

I don't really care that it is known as 'hopi's guide'... What I really intended was just to have a link we could point at whenever this repeating problem\question comes up.
Nah, you do all the work, you made a good resource, I'm just spreading the word.

If I write about it I'm more likely to remember it exists.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
I have to chuckle... You're not suggesting RTFM are you?
guess I'll never live that one down... so think I'll just double down on it... yeah... RTFM Read The Friendly Manual... again and again and again....

I say it to everyone and to myself too....

so WTF was it that people objected to? was it just the F word? what's the problem with 'friendly' anyway? plz excuse my bad French!
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
guess I'll never live that one down... so think I'll just double down on it... yeah... RTFM Read The Friendly Manual... again and again and again....

I say it to everyone and to myself too....

so WTF was it that people objected to? was it just the F word? what's the problem with 'friendly' anyway? plz excuse my bad French!
Sorry Hopi, I was just playing with you. I think what you've done here is great, and pointing people to it will be helpful. It's not the same as saying RTM, since it's so specific. As for that "other" thread, I won't speak for anyone else, but when I feel like a poster isn't even trying I am pretty slow in offering help, even if it would just be advice to RTM. F or not.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:38 PM   #13
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This is amazing. I feel that when I've done it myself with sampletank I've just got more confused and couldn't get it to work so I end up using reaper to set it up for me automatically and it is too much. I'm excited to try your tutorial and get this finally down to where I know what I'm doing. It seems very thorough.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:46 PM   #14
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kewl seagul... and thanks for the pm... do dl the newest version that just went up today... I hope the typos are fixed now... there were some bad ones...

thanks to Dark Star doing the proof reading, spelling fixes, etc. a normal person might be able to read it now... [I've eaten too many scrambled eggs! ...and they've gone to my head!]

I am interested in your feedback about IF this helps you understand how to do routing manually for a virtual instrument.

I know when I first had to learn it, it took some brain changing... but now it's very easy. I actually prefer to do it manually.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:49 PM   #15
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I already know how to do it with Sampletank and have recently kind of figured it out with Kontakt.
I cannot, for the life of me, figure it out with Best Service ENGINE.
Of the 3, it seems to have the most intuitive settings, but I just can't get it to work.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:26 PM   #16
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Much appreciated Hopi.

With the recent midi love and additional attempts, I find myself still struggling doing the midi cover song thing I so often do, because everything has to be setup manually.

To the iPad with your ... pdf? Thanks. Downloading.

Edit: That file may be broken. It downloads here to only 9.27kb and it won't unzip.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Much appreciated Hopi.

With the recent midi love and additional attempts, I find myself still struggling doing the midi cover song thing I so often do, because everything has to be setup manually.

To the iPad with your ... pdf? Thanks. Downloading.

Edit: That file may be broken. It downloads here to only 9.27kb and it won't unzip.
Please do try to dl again.... you may have gotten it while the new ver. was being uploaded???? I just dl'd it to test and it is works fine.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoid9 View Post
I already know how to do it with Sampletank and have recently kind of figured it out with Kontakt.
I cannot, for the life of me, figure it out with Best Service ENGINE.
Of the 3, it seems to have the most intuitive settings, but I just can't get it to work.
hmmm... don't have engine to take a look... but the basics of setting up the routing are the same for any multi-out virtual instrument...

Is engine a multi out plugin? If so, how many outputs does it allow?
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
btw... I see this has been blogged now... ok, I think you deserve some mention in the credit if you want it I'd be happy to point that out.
Nope, no need at all.

The PDF in the download (here only?) is still dated: 02 ‎December ‎2012, ‏‎02:26:08
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:30 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
hmmm... don't have engine to take a look... but the basics of setting up the routing are the same for any multi-out virtual instrument...

Is engine a multi out plugin? If so, how many outputs does it allow?
ENGINE has 8 stereo or mono outputs,and 16 midi inputs. I know they are routed correctly.
It is the midi that is giving me the problem.
The instruments I create in ENGINE will only come out their respective audio channels when I have them selected in the ENGINE UI and play it's built-in midi keyboard.
Anything I play on Reaper's virtual keyboard or my Yamaha plays the first instrument in ENGINE (midi channel 1) - regardless of what's selected in ENGINE or record-armed in REAPER.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:38 AM   #21
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It's hard to tell, but it sounds like you have the Play VSTi track RecArmed and the Reaper MIDI keyboard sending notes on Channel 01. Or the MIDI channel has not been set in the IO window for the tracks.

You should be arming one of the MIDI tracks that you created - each MIDI track sends MIDI on a different channel to Play.

Just to double-check - each instrument in Play is listening on its own channel, isn't it?

Perhaps you could compress a simple problem project file (no audio samples needed) into a ZIP file and post it here as an attachment so we can have a look at it and see what's (not) happening?
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:58 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
It's har to tell, but it sounds like you have the Play VSTi track RecArmed and the Reaper MIDI keyboard sending notes on Channel 01. Or the MIDI channel has not been set in the IO window for the tracks.

You should be arming one of the MIDI tracks that you created - each MIDI track sends MIDI on a different channel to Play.

Just to double-check - each instrument in Play is listening on its own channel, isn't it?

Perhaps you could compress a simple problem project file (no audio samples needed) into a ZIP file and post it here as an attachment so we can have a look at it and see what's (not) happening?
I have to go to work now, but can put together a file later this afternoon.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:11 AM   #23
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Appreciate your work on this.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:59 AM   #24
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zoid9... It does sound like what DS says but I guess we'll have to wait for your project file to have a look.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:13 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Please do try to dl again.... you may have gotten it while the new ver. was being uploaded???? I just dl'd it to test and it is works fine.
Still failing for some reason. "Cannot open as zip archive" with 7-zip or anything else

9.27kb
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:54 AM   #26
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Lawrence... very strange... I just now dl'd it again and opened with winrar...

I suppose if you want to pm me your email I can get them to you without the zipping...
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:19 AM   #27
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EVERYONE... just replaced the whole file on the stash

see link in the first post and dl it yet again...

and yet more revisions and edits ... link is in the first post and is all new again.. Dec 4, 2012
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Lawrence... very strange... I just now dl'd it again and opened with winrar...

I suppose if you want to pm me your email I can get them to you without the zipping...
Yeah, weird. If it's a PDF can you just attach it to the stash or PM me a direct link to it?

Thanks.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:21 PM   #29
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Just got back from work. Here is a project file.
Attached Files
File Type: zip zoid9_ENGINE.zip (32.0 KB, 123 views)
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:55 PM   #30
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^^^^
You need to turn on Input Monitoring on the 3 MIDI tracks. That should do it.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:01 PM   #31
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@Hopi: I got it.

Your link is formatted like it's a zip file, but it's not, it's a link to the stash. I was doing a right click "Save As" which is why the "zip" was invalid.

I thought it was a direct link to the actual zip file.

Thanks.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
^^^^
You need to turn on Input Monitoring on the 3 MIDI tracks. That should do it.
That's what it was. (smacks head)
Good lookin' out!
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:59 PM   #33
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EDIT... great lawrence... just saw that you got it all good now...
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:02 PM   #34
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Quote:
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That's what it was. (smacks head)
Good lookin' out!
right... well that is exactly why I've bothered to make that pdf...

ah... ok got your project... yes... good glad you understand that now!

I must say that monitoring throws a lot of people... but once you know it's there you'll always know to look for it!
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:26 AM   #35
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Thanks Hopi,

I thought that I already knew that but your tutorial gave me some extra info which will be helpful in the future.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:01 PM   #36
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http://www.4shared.com/file/_2OvesDY...e_Project.html

I went through all the steps about 3 times. I even tried to mirror hopi's reaper file but I can not figure out where I went wrong. I get no sound playback. Please tell me were I went wrong and thanks. Please help, little frustrated. THANKS!


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Old 12-11-2012, 12:39 AM   #37
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fan...



and again... depending on what sound you have loaded, if you are using the virtual keyboard, you MUST read the last few pages of the Guide

PS also, there is a project file that comes as part of the download with the guide....
It is an example file using SampleTank with 3 sounds loaded...
OK, so if YOU don't have ST, then load that project and put Miro in it's place, leaving everything the same but loading 3 sounds into Miro and setting Miro's outs like shown in the Guide for ST... I know you know how to do that just fine.

Then you can save as that project with Miro in it. and use it to compare your IO's and other settings with the project you try to do from scratch...
TIP... you can go under the File menu in reaper and choose load a new project Tab... you can have your working project and my example loaded on two Tabs and switch between them until you make your own match up and work correctly.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:05 AM   #38
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Hello,

Thanks Hopi - I worked my way through this and after a bit of twiddling at the end I got it working.

Am intrigued by the way it records both a midi and a wav file. Is the logic here that if you want to you can edit the midi file to make any required changes without going through the whole record procedure again ?

COuld I edit the midi file if I needed to and then copy it and attach the relevant vst as an effect on that midi file and then record again or render to a wav file?

Would an experienced user who knew what they were doing simply edit the midi file and then somehow chane the sends/recieves so that the new improved midi file gets recorded into the associated audio track as a wav file?

Or then again maybe I dont know enough about it yet to put into words what I'm trying to say ..............

Off to do some RTM'ing re routing

Regards

Bill

Last edited by steamingbill; 12-11-2012 at 01:09 AM. Reason: changed a couple of words
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:55 AM   #39
hopi
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bill... basically yes... and...

the basic idea is that you first work out your midi parts on at a time..

to me, that means recording them [even as takes or whatever] until you have what you want... or you could never actually record them but instead use an already existing midi file on those tracks...

and yes, edit, quantise, whatever... until it plays as you want it.

Then you would turn off all the rec arm on all midi input tracks and turn on Rec Arm on all the Audio tracks... hit record and get a set of wav files that result from your midi work.

at this point, you can do a Save As to a new project folder, and then remove all tracks BUT the wav tracks and you have nice simple wav with not cpu overhead ready to mix.

Of course at that point you might want to add fx like eq, comp, etc. for the mixing....

But that is really beyond the intent and scope of this Guide...

Still... I think you get the general drift.

Now look... there are lots of ways to get this done... The point of the Guide is to give people who don't know any ways, a process to follow that hopefully gives them enough understanding as to how you can set up routing to get something with a VSTi done.

Once you are fulid with that understanding it's up to you to get creative with it... you see? I mean, heck... there are tons of ways to make track routings when you know how and why to accomplish what you want...

I'll give you one quick example... maybe you can try it later.

Say you have 3 diff VSTi's and you like some sounds in each and think you can do some sound design with them...

So you could set them up with one midi input sending the same notes to all three VSTi's and getting back the audio from all three to another single wav track. Do the mixing of volumes in the VSTi's so you are in affect, getting [say] a way cool pad made up them all.... you see?

Now you could make and save a project template of that and have it ready to load as your own "My KEWL PAD" instrument.... eh?
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:48 PM   #40
steamingbill
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Thanks Hopi,

Off to do some experiments to consolidate new found ideas.

Will try to blend some noises as you suggest. SOunds interesting.

Too hot outside to work in garden.

Wottashame.

Bill
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