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Old 10-02-2017, 01:47 AM   #1
Dori
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Default Routing MIDI messages to different channel in a live performance

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum and I have a question about MIDI usage in live situations.
If there is another thread with the same question, I'm sorry, please redirect me to it.

So, my problem is: I want to use Reaper as a vst host for live performance while I'm playing keyboard. I have my instrument connected via MIDI with Reaper. Then i have a foot controller Behringer FCB1010 to use as a switch for changing sounds, connected to the Reaper via MIDI too. In Reaper i have my tracks, everyone with a loaded Kontakt instance with a different instrument.

Basically, what I want to do is: arm every track for recording (i will use no more than 10 tracks and averyone has MIDI input channel from 2 to X), then in a separate track reciving from all midi channels, apply an FX (JS Midi Tool Vs? JS Midi Route Note to Channel?) that, controlled by the foot switch allows me to route keyboard's incoming midi note to the instrument's track that i want to play and that is reciving on the channel i selected.

I was thinking that maybe can be problems with the midi messages incoming from the switch, as they are midi and can be routed to tracks too..

I have no other ideas to use reaper live, i tried to make multiple snapshots (with one track armed per time) with SWS and recall them with the switch. Everything fine, but the problem is the big lag i have recalling those scenes with kontakt (i need a zero lag change, from that my idea to let all the tracks enable and just re-route the midi incoming notes).

Sorry for the length and for my bad english and thanks for your help!
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Old 10-02-2017, 04:56 AM   #2
LugNut
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Hi,
Couldn't you use your keyboards midi transmit channel to change which track your addressing?
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:23 AM   #3
Dori
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Hi LugNut,

thanks for the reply. So basically you are saying to send messages both from keyboard and foot switch to the same channel?
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:30 AM   #4
Philbo King
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Maybe see if your footswitch can be used to change which MIDI channel your keyboard is sending out?

Then in Reaper the receiving track can route each MIDI channel to a different track using MIDI sends.
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Old 10-02-2017, 01:40 PM   #5
Dori
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Hi Philbo!


That's a great idea, i will try if i can change key midi out channel with the switch. If i can, it's done.

Thanks again!
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:18 PM   #6
LugNut
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Hi,
Each track in reaper is in record mode and listening for a specific midi channel. Most keyboards have a transmit channel. By changing the transmit channel you address different tracks.

Does it have to be by foot switch? What keyboard is it?
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:28 AM   #7
Dori
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You're right, I have to choose from channel 1 to 16, on my keyboard, a Yamaha MX61.

The challenge now is to find out how to change the tx/rx channel from the foot switch (I hope this is possible, and not only from knobs on the keyboard)
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Old 10-05-2017, 03:46 PM   #8
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Hi,
I took a look at the manual for the yammy. Nice.
I'll venture a guess that transmit channel follows part selection in some way.
The cool thing is that in the end of the data list is a COMPLETE sysex doc with all parameter addresses. Used to be sop but lately even Roland has been leaving that info out.
Gl
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Old 10-06-2017, 03:15 AM   #9
Dori
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Trying to find out how to use and send the right key's midi messages is a nightmare
(i tried time ago but it was impossible for me).

Now I am trying to build a simple routing patch with Max MSP, to run with parallel with Reaper.

I hope this solution will work...
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Old 10-08-2017, 06:29 PM   #10
Tonegrown
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I tackle the switching a little differently, but I think this will work for you.

I use SWS Live Configs to mute and unmute each song's kontakt tracks using 2 custom actions for each song... (specifically inserted in the Live configs Activate and Deactivate action boxes)

I bring the midi in on separate tracks. one track I would call midi Play and the other would be midi control... The keyboard would be brought into the midi play track and armed, and the foot controller in the midi control track. Then I can manipulate the midi with plugins. I then pass the midi Play track on to all instrument tracks using reaper busses (midi channel are all the same because i'm using mutes to control what plays). The midi control gets sent to the reaper control path using a vst plugin called MidiToReaControlPath.

There is a setting in preferences to allow processing to be stopped for muted tracks. I make use of this to save processing power.

There is a lot more you can do to make things simpler.... I use multiple instruments per song, so I control muting by making a select script that selects tracks based on partial track name match. Each song gets a 4 character identifier at the end of the track name. This allows for me to change tracks without having to rewrite any programming.

I go further to have a time delayed script for each song... so that the sustains can continue for 4 seconds while i'm playing the next song's sounds... Then I send all notes off and all sounds off to the track before I mute it. So then when it is unmuted, the audio buffer is clear.

Reaper is so powerful and I have come to realize that there are quite a few ways to handle sound switching!

Darrell
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:35 AM   #11
Dori
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Hi Darrel and thank you,
this seems to be the easiest way. I've readed the Live Config instructions (i feel like this extension is an amazing one) and then set my test project with a control track with no master send and four other test tracks (everyone with midi input from keyboard) with different kontakt libs. Then in the live config (config#1) i assigned every track to a CC, everyone corresponding to one of the pedalboard's switch's output.

Everything is fine with mouse (i double click the config's row and the tracks mute/unmute correctly) but, even if my switch is set correctly and i have graphical input in the control track, the config preset (row) does not change.

Maybe i'am missing something subtle? Seems like Live Configs are the solution for my problem
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:17 PM   #12
Tonegrown
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did you go into the actions list dialog and assign a CC # to Live Configs #1 apply config action.

The live config window is displaying controller value not CC#... The CC# is set in the actions list. All the controller values are for the CC# that you choose.

So if you bind CC#98 to Live Configs #1 apply config Action then your first button on your foot pedal would be set up as CC#98 Value 1. The second pedal CC#98 value 2... etc.
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:59 AM   #13
Dori
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Sorry, i was talking about PC, since i use buttons and not faders on the footswitch.

Anyway, i tried as you said assigning the correct PC in the action list -> Apply confid action, but nothing happened.

Then i tried assigning the same command to the action "Apply next config" and then everything went right: in config 1 i can now go up and down my rows selecting the one i need.

But I have two questions:

1)There is a way, an action maybe (but i haven't seen nothing that seems to be the right one) to configure to select the desired config row without passing down every other row? Example: I'm on row 2 and i want to recall row 5 without pressing 3 times the "next config" action related button.

2)There is a way to make those row changes faster? Actually i have a lot of delay when changing, but i need fast and immediate ones
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:39 AM   #14
Tonegrown
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1. I believe you may have to use a midi plugin to convert PC (program Change) messages to CC (continuous controller) messages because Live configs i think is expecting a CC message. the exact action text is: SWS/S&M: Live Config #1 - Apply config (MIDI/OSC only) This will allow you to jump around without needing to go sequentially.

2. turn controller smoothing down in the live config window... not sure if the fade knob will make a difference in overall transition time too.
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:23 AM   #15
Dori
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For question 2, what you said was right, thank you!

For 1, instead, I tried also with a "volume pedal" on the board, assigning it as source of CC for the action you said, but it's pretty difficult find the right position to select the exact action over a range of 127 steps.

Anyway, all the main problems are solved, i have to think a little about how to select the right performance, maybe a solution could be prepare a sequential list of sounds that i need in a song, and then, just push forward by one the row selector, to pick the sound that i need in this part of the song.

Thanks to all!
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Old 10-11-2017, 06:40 PM   #16
Tonegrown
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There are some midi converter plugins by insert Piz here that are very good! Here is a plugin where you can see I set it up to convert Program changes from your pedal buttons to CC messages. so PC 1 will correspond to CC39 Value 1. PC2 will correspond to CC39 value 2...

My guess is that you can't set up your foot controller to spit out CC value instead of PC. so this converter with a midi plugin is needed.
Attached Images
File Type: png midi converter.PNG (25.1 KB, 18 views)
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Old 10-12-2017, 05:09 AM   #17
Dori
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That is pretty much what i've readed on the Live Config's paragraph (by Jeffos) about selecting the preset with a PC command instead of a CC. But he was talking about a script that is impossible to use (error both in .EEL or .lua) and MIDItoReaControlPath plug in, both to set up in a way to carry out this task, but for me seems to are unable to do it (Python errors, script error and so on..).

I will try out the plugin you suggest, so i hope to achive the result i'm searching.
Is there something else i have to do/install/setup before using PC for changing presets instead of CC?

Edit:
After half an hour of researchs on the web, all the download links for the Insert Piz Here plugins suite seems to be broken ("404 not found"). They seems to be disappeared. Can you please post a good and still-alive link?

Last edited by Dori; 10-12-2017 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:52 AM   #18
Tonegrown
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Here is the website, everything seems to be working http://www.thepiz.org/plugins/?p=pizmidi
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:48 PM   #19
Dori
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Hi Tonegrown, and thanks for the link!

Tried the midiconverter set up as you showed me, but nothing happened. I have also tried to configure the Out Param 1 as Jeffos wrote in the user manual (to CC#60) but nothing.
I'm not good in midi but i can't figure out what is wrong in my setup.
Midi "master" is reciving input but nothing happens..

This is my setup now: https://ibb.co/nC7bdw

Sorry for this link to my screenshot hosted on external site, but an image is too big both in size and height and length
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:32 PM   #20
Tonegrown
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Hi,

After converting the midi, you need to send the midi to the reaper control path using a vst plugin called MidiToReaControlPath. https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=43741

alternatively, you could use a midi loopback device to create some virtual ports, but I prefer MidiToReaControlPath

then assign CC39 to SWS/S&M: Live Config #1 - Apply config (MIDI/OSC only) in the action list.

That should work.

One thing with your graphic is that the Output Max should be 127 not 16383. try moving the output type slider, then move it back to CC. Not sure if this is a glitch, but you did things correctly in the plugin
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:37 PM   #21
Dori
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Hi,

so i tried again to set up everything (the 16383 output value was a big bug) and added MIDIToReaControlPath to the FX Chain, set up like in the screenshot on the post you linked.

Then when adding the shortcut for the action you said,when i press the pedal button that should be now a CC, nothing seems to work and i end up to having a <<MIDI PC 20>> shortcut for the action.

I'm going crazy with those problems.

This is the situation now (what i have wrote above): https://ibb.co/b7dytw
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:04 PM   #22
Tonegrown
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Thanks for the graphic, everything looks good. There are a lot of variables and this is quite tricky, but once you get the idea of manipulating MIDI and then sending it to the control bus it really opens doors to do a lot of things. I think you are really close to getting this working. Go to preferences and look at your midi inputs. Make sure they are not selected to send to the control bus. In a normal setting we would send these to the control bus but because we are intercepting the MIDI manipulating it and then sending it to the control we don't want to send to control in the preferences.

The correct midi cc is probably getting to the control bus, but we need to block the program change commands from getting to the control bus so the assign shortcut box will pick up the CC control


Another helpful plug in to use is the midi monitor by insert piz here. You can place it after midi converter 3 to verify that the changes you are making are spitting out the correct data.
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Old 10-14-2017, 06:27 AM   #23
Dori
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OK, so we assume that midiConverter3 and MIDIToReaControlPath are set right.
I then tried to do what you say (Preferences->Midi Input->Unchek "enable input for control messages"), like in the screenshot, but this way i don't have any input in the actions shortcut input box.

If i uncheck, instead, the "enable input" and check "enable input for control messages", in the actions input box i have again the midi PC.

Last but not least, as you can see in the image, the Insert Piz Here Midi Monitor (but also the Reaper's MidiLogger) does not log any track input. I have tried them on the instrument track and there they log any note i play on the keyboard..

Here is what I have done (midi preferences and the blank -not reciving?- midi monitor) https://ibb.co/juFJtw
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Old 10-15-2017, 02:14 PM   #24
Tonegrown
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I would suggest leave control unchecked and the normal input checked in preferences for the foot pedal. Then start with midi monitor in the first plugin spot to make sure that you are receiving the PC commands. if you are getting them, then move your monitor after midi converter and see what changes... sounds like just some trial and error at this point, but I think you got all the concepts.

Darrell
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Old 10-16-2017, 01:42 AM   #25
Dori
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Hi Darrel,

Everything now works well! Midi monitor is displaying correct input before FX and correct output bethween MidiConverter3 and ReaControlPath. So This part works fine (i don't understand what i was doing wrong before).

Anyway, now i have to assign the correct output to the action you said me time ago, but i don't have any midi input in the action input box. I'm just selecting the action -> add -> pressing the pedal button to spit out the after-conversion CC, but nothing arrives in the box.
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Old 10-16-2017, 04:55 AM   #26
Tonegrown
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if you don't have any midi into in the control box, then the miditoreacontrolpath plugin isn't working correctly or the midi is being blocked before it gets there. try unloading the miditoreacontrol path plugin and reopening with default settings.

if that doesn't work, using a different approach, install loopmidi https://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software/loopmidi.html it creates virtual hardware midi ports

assign the midi output of that channel to the loopmidi driver then select the loopmidi as a midi control input in preferences. This is how I did it before I found the miditoreacontrol plugin.
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:29 AM   #27
Dori
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Thank you Tonegrown for all your kind and patient help!

Now everything is fine with the loopback midi ports. I don't know in the other configuration where the problem is, but for now everything is working fine, at last.
I will spend some time, ayway, investigating the problem behind the Reacontrolpath configuration.
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Old 10-16-2017, 02:53 PM   #28
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you are welcome! glad to hear you have a solution!
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