Trim mysteries... what am I missing?? (aka SWS Console Trim)

[Thonex]

Hello, fellow Reaptoids!

[EDIT] The static Trim needs its own dedicated control. The volume fader is overworked and it gets confusing when you consider there is a static Trim and an Automatioable Trim.

I was doing a big mix with lots of automation and riding volume etc. I liked the balance of the mix, but I feel I was hitting the compressors/limiters too hard. Back when I was using Neudno, I would simply select all my root tracks and set the Trim knob to -3dB... DONE!

However, with Reaper, it's a whole can of worms from what I can tell... or maybe I'm missing something.

There is no Trim knob. There is a Trim automation lane but there is no way to Arm it and no way (that I know) to set multiple tracks to a value... UNLESS (I found) you use the Reaper SWS Console which I highly recommend everyone download.

Now, I was able to simply (as per the example on the link above) trim all my desired audio tracks with 1 command. And it lowered all my faders by that amount. However, The Volume Automation for those tracks were unchanged and the Trim Automation lane values were also unchanged.

So, my big question is: Where does the SWS Console command to Trim Volume store these values? Because it is completely opaque to me. If I didn't know I had Trimmed the values... there would be no way for me to tell... unless I am missing something.

Anyone??

Thanks for any help.

Cheers,

Andrew K

[lunker]

The trim is "stored" in the new fader positions.

The result of trimming with the SWS console is the same as if you had selected those tracks and dragged one of the faders with the mouse.

[RobinGShore]

The way Reaper handles trimming is not so great and kind of confusing. There are actually two separate functions named trim that do similar things, but are not otherwise connected to each other.

For each track there is a static (non-automateable) trim value that can be set, as well as a trim envelope. Take a look at posts #10 and 11 here for a detailed explanation of how these two trim functions work.

So, my big question is: Where does the SWS Console command to Trim Volume store these values?

It uses the static trim value instead of the trim envelope. You will need to either disarm your volume envelopes or switch the track automation mode to trim/read to see this value

[Thonex]

Thanks guys!! This makes sense to me now... with your help and a PM from Klangfarben, I think I now understand it. I will test it out in a mix tomorrow.

I often feel like this when using Reaper with automation:



And I feel like this when trying to remember how Reaper handles certain automation features:





Thanks again.

Cheers,

Andrew K

[sockmonkey72]

Seems like one "simple" solution (yes, I know there's nothing simple about adding features to software) for this specific issue would be to add a new control to the MCP/TCP for the static track trim value. Overloading the volume fader for both duties (plus the default behavior of "When adding volume/pan envelopes, apply trim to the envelope and reset trim") makes the interaction of the various controls and envelopes somewhat disorienting. I love the degree of control, but that fader feels kind of crowded to me.

If there were a trim dial to grab and adjust, regardless of automation mode, regardless of envelope arm state, that would simplify the whole thing.

[heda]

Hi Thonex!
As I understand, you have compressors and fx on the tracks, and you need to trim the signal before them right? In that case you need to adjust the Volume(PreFX) envelope. Volume and Trim Volume envelopes are both post FX. That wouldn't work to avoid hitting the compressors hard.

Track inspector has a trim(PREFX) fader, but it only affects the current track. I think it would be a good idea to make it to adjust all selected tracks instead.

You could create an automation item on the prefx envelope with a -3db adjustment and the entire length of the project and copy it to all the tracks. Then adjusting it on one would affect all the tracks.

If the items in the tracks are all audio items(not MIDI), you could select them and adjust the take volume all at once (from the item properties window or using actions)

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by heda

Hi Thonex!
As I understand, you have compressors and fx on the tracks, and you need to trim the signal before them right? In that case you need to adjust the Volume(PreFX) envelope. Volume and Trim Volume envelopes are both post FX. That wouldn't work to avoid hitting the compressors hard.

Track inspector has a trim(PREFX) fader, but it only affects the current track. I think it would be a good idea to make it to adjust all selected tracks instead.

You could create an automation item on the prefx envelope with a -3db adjustment and the entire length of the project and copy it to all the tracks. Then adjusting it on one would affect all the tracks.

If the items in the tracks are all audio items(not MIDI), you could select them and adjust the take volume all at once (from the item properties window or using actions)

Hi Heda,

Actually, in my case I use the folder tracks with compressor/limiters... and here I was just adding Trim to non-folder tracks. So in my case the Trim was was "pre compressor".

But you bring up a really good point. IIRC, Nuendo's Trim was pre-everything... like it is on a console. You have the Trim knob to reduce the signal before anything.

Great time using your Track Inspector. One of the biggest features for me with your Track Inspector is the ability to change a Send level on all selected tracks.

Thanks Heda!

Cheers,

Andrew K

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by sockmonkey72

Seems like one "simple" solution (yes, I know there's nothing simple about adding features to software) for this specific issue would be to add a new control to the MCP/TCP for the static track trim value. Overloading the volume fader for both duties (plus the default behavior of "When adding volume/pan envelopes, apply trim to the envelope and reset trim") makes the interaction of the various controls and envelopes somewhat disorienting. I love the degree of control, but that fader feels kind of crowded to me.

If there were a trim dial to grab and adjust, regardless of automation mode, regardless of envelope arm state, that would simplify the whole thing.

Yes!

I agree that the Volume fader is overloaded with use. It really needs its own dedicated control! If Cockos belonged to me ( ) I would add a Trim slot after all Insert slots and have it be a horizontal dB fader with a reading (similar to the sends).

As it is now, the Trim feature is far too opaque... and to add to the confusion, you have a static Trim and an automatable Trim. According to Heda, the Trim is post FX, and I feel the Static Trim should definitely be pre FX. Like on a hardware console... although it's been years

Finale note: Trim should be the first control on a channel. NOT post FX. As it is now, it is pretty much "wrong" with regard to the rest of the industry. A Trim knob is basically an input volume control. Input into the mixer channel. It's the first thing in a signal chain.

Thanks Sockmonkey!

Cheers,

Andrew K

[heda]

Oh I see... And probably your tracks have VST instruments. If that is the case then the volume Prefx doesn't work in this case because it cannot affect the output of the vsti since it is prefx.
If you need to trim all tracks by the same amount you could also use VCA groups and use one fader to trim them all as needed.

I don't understand what do you mean by static trim. The trim envelope? That is automatable also it is just like another additional volume envelope.

Another idea would be to add a volume gain jsfx on all the tracks and automate the gain as needed if you don't want to use the faders or normal volume envelopes. You can also add the gain parameter as a TCP control knob. The advantage of this also is that you could control the position of this control in the chain. For example after the vsti and before other FX. But since you have the FX on the folder that is not needed in your case.
There are a lot of options I use VCA groups in all projects.

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by heda

I don't understand what do you mean by static trim. The trim envelope? That is automatable also it is just like another additional volume envelope.

That's the whole point of confusion. There are 2 trims. There's the Trim Automation lane (which is more like a Volume Fader Trim and doesn't move the Volume Fade when in Trim/Read mode) and then there is another Trim value you can add using the Volume Fader as a Trim Offset WHEN you are in Trim/Read mode.

And lastly, a real Trim (like on all consoles since the begging of time) is pre-fx and is like an input trim for the channel. So I was totally confused by how this worked. It's cool what Cockos did... but it's not correct to call it a "Trim" It's more like some kind of VCA.

[heda]

I totally agree that is confusing
I use the trim envelope all the time for secondary automations while maintaining the overall automation on the volume envelope. Another use of the trim envelope can be to experiment with different automations without touching the main volume envelope and once you are happy with it, there are actions to commit that automation to the main volume envelope and reset the trim envelope again. but again... They could have named it volumes or something. Not trim envelope because I guess most people when they see trim envelope at first, they will think it is the prefx envelope. Yes. Confusing but anyway ...

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by sockmonkey72

Seems like one "simple" solution (yes, I know there's nothing simple about adding features to software) for this specific issue would be to add a new control to the MCP/TCP for the static track trim value. Overloading the volume fader for both duties (plus the default behavior of "When adding volume/pan envelopes, apply trim to the envelope and reset trim") makes the interaction of the various controls and envelopes somewhat disorienting. I love the degree of control, but that fader feels kind of crowded to me.

If there were a trim dial to grab and adjust, regardless of automation mode, regardless of envelope arm state, that would simplify the whole thing.

I agree!!!

Good solution.

Cheers,

Andrew K

[norbury brook]

the industry standard when using the term trim is it should be the first control on a channel, anything else shouldn't really be called trim IMHO.

when referring to VSTi's then that's a midi issue not audio and trim should be used after you've bounced the midi to audio at the start of the channel.


I often think of the actual item gains as trims and set those as I would have done using trim ona console before mixing so everything is in the fader sweet spot when I start my mix.



M

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by norbury brook

the industry standard when using the term trim is it should be the first control on a channel, anything else shouldn't really be called trim IMHO.

when referring to VSTi's then that's a midi issue not audio and trim should be used after you've bounced the midi to audio at the start of the channel.


I often think of the actual item gains as trims and set those as I would have done using trim ona console before mixing so everything is in the fader sweet spot when I start my mix.



M

I'm with you. I agree that Trim should be the first control on a channel. But you bring up a really good point with VSTis. In fact, my project was mostly VSTis. It would be a shame to not be able to "Trim" the VSTi's output before it got to the Volume Fader (as the current Reaper Trim works).

I think for clarity, they should call it Pre-Fader Trim And maybe add a Pre-FX Trim. It's definitely confusing. I guess in a Pinch I could always add a JS: Volume Adjustment insert in the First or last slot depending if I want it Pre or Post Inserts.