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Old 03-28-2012, 07:47 PM   #1
Guido
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Default Quatizing Tempo Markers To A No Click Song

Hi,

this post is in response to most recently^^.. this post here..
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=99690 ...and also maybe to some feature
requests that have been floating about.^^

This is a method I use to tempo map Reapers click to an already recorded piece of audio that was done wo a click.
It takes me 10 times longer to explain it than do it!

EDIT...You will need the SWS extension to Reaper..Dont leave home without it!^^
http://www.standingwaterstudios.com/
OPTIONAL but usefull...my Tenpo Map Toolbar here..
https://stash.reaper.fm/12124/TempoMa...ar7.ReaperMenu
TIP.. u can change the imported tool bars location..i.e. toolbar 7 to tool bar 3..
by opening up the *****.ReaperMenu file in note pad and changing the number.
The file needs to be installed in yourReaper resource path in a folder called MenuSets.
You can find it in Reaper
by goin Top Menu/Options/Show Resource path in Exploreer

First make sure ur snap settings are like this.....




..Then make sure ur project is set to Time in File/Project Settings/Timebase.

Now import ur audio file...move it to start at about bar 2.....



The first track above is the song we want to match..
this particular piece of audio needed some band pass eq to bring out the kick drum...that is the second track in the above image.
It is a render of the first tracks output after the eq..

The Eq...



Now select both track when slipping them closer to the bar line..like below.... {hold down shift while dragging for fine adjustment}












Now Call up the Virtual keyboard and create a new track. Rt click the record button and set the tracks input to Midi/VirtualKeyboard/AllChannels.
Arm this track, hit record and hit any key on th VKB on the one of every measure while listening ti the song. Lik this...



..opps no count in,,missed that one bad^^..no prob. Select the track u just recorded and right click and select
Open Items in editor/Open in In line Editor and edit the first midi notes position, like this....



do the whole song...u now have midi notes close to the one of every track..but not close enuff!^^

due to a quirk in Reaper..rt click on the Midi Guide track,select Item Source Properties and check Ignore project tempo and enter whatever ur tempo in ur transport says.

Ok were almost done...Save under a new name.^^



Now Right click on the audio guide track and select Item Processing/ Dynamic Split items..and set the controls close to this...



[notice im using gate open not transients,and that i have Create chromatic midi notes checked}




Above what u have now is precise timing points{the midi notes start time} from which we will extract the timing from using Fingers Groove Tool
[which is part of the SWS package] and apply it to our whole note guide track we recorded earlier.

The Groove Tool in action!



Here I'm selecting the Dynamic Split's Chromactic Midi track and getting the timing info..and then showing that info in marker form by using Show Groove Markers.
You can see that there are more than just 1 bar markers..
thats where our whole note track comes in...






Now I select the whole note midi track that we recorded earlier and apply the Chromatic midi's timing info... pickin up wat im puttin down?^^









Above I am selecting the whole note track, and getting ITS groove and then showing our completed markers!


Place the cursor at bar 2..the first marker and do this.....





with this...






If u have any errors..like below...do this







The End!! man took me 10 mins to do and 8 hrs to post...holy crap!!!!


Last edited by Guido; 03-29-2012 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 03-31-2012, 07:02 PM   #2
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Now that's a properly done post. Should probably be in the tips and tricks forum though..
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:03 AM   #3
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Great post.
I'll definately try this next time. I used the Tempo mapping101 for my last episode of this.

Thanks for your time.
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Old 02-28-2018, 09:39 PM   #4
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Your custom action: Are you repeating this action manually, or does it repeat itself until the project end?

Your method took you 10 minutes which is considerably faster than the couple of methods I've tried. It's been taking about 30 minutes for me to tempo map a 5-minute song.
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Old 03-01-2018, 06:30 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insub View Post
Your custom action: Are you repeating this action manually, or does it repeat itself until the project end?

Your method took you 10 minutes which is considerably faster than the couple of methods I've tried. It's been taking about 30 minutes for me to tempo map a 5-minute song.

Hi,
I have it assigned to my tilde key. I just hold it down until the last marker. Have you tried any of the sws actions from breeder?
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Old 03-01-2018, 10:52 AM   #6
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Years ago I detailed my method to Quantize free-time audio in the post linked in my signature. I'm in a different band now, but doing a similar thing for the same reason. However, this time I am tempo mapping prior to quantization, for a couple of reasons. This band is more likely to incorporate an actual tempo change (or more than one) during a song, and I want to know if there is a tempo trend and/or if the tempo fluctuations are musical before I quantize them out. Most of the time it does not seem musical... our band has a habit of slowing the tempo throughout a song.

So, now I tempo map first. Then quantize the audio after saving a new project file.

I watched the video on tempo mapping by Kenny Gioia. In it, he does the same process as you, only manually slicing each measure and aligning the slices.

I'd never heard of the Groove Tool before, and the wiki does not explain it well, IMO. Are those project markers it is creating? I haven't heard of groove markers before.

I've been setting the tempo manually using tap-tempo, then inserting tempo markers every 4 measures using:
SWS/BR: Create tempo markers at grid after every selected tempo marker
Then manually adjusting each marker and adding additional markers when necessary.

Once the tempo map is complete, I use a custom action to convert the tempo markers to stretch markers and then delete all tempo markers.

Item: Select all items
Script: X-Raym_Add stretch markers to selected items at tempo markers.eel
SWS/AW: Set Project timebase to beats (position, length, rate)
Script: X-Raym_Delete all tempo markers.eel
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Old 03-01-2018, 11:18 AM   #7
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Hi,
The fingers groove tool can learn from a midi track and apply dynamics and position to other midi tracks.
Those markers behave like project markers but are groove markers. The positions offsets or something of the currently loaded groove.
I have buttons in a toolbar that deal with them.
Your method with breeders actions and scripts looks very interesting!
Of course, none of that was around when I came up with my method, but this looks much more use full especially if it automates placement of stretch markers.
Thanks!
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Old 03-01-2018, 03:31 PM   #8
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Well, I'm trying to figure out the most efficient way to tempo map. In every method, setting accurate markers is what seems to take the most time. Dynamic Split seems like an awesome, automated solution, but won't work for passages without transients on the down beat. Also, out-of-time transients are going to skew the tempo map.

There doesn't appear to be any way to avoid either dropping MIDI notes or markers in realtime plus adjusting those marker/note positions. Your method of using the Groove Tool to quantize the MIDI note positions appears to be the fastest way of getting all of the notes to a more accurate position based on the Groove Markers. Again, that requires the existence of a transient on the downbeat for the Groove Markers to be accurate. I've dropped project markers manually in the past and the results were the same as your MIDI notes... not all right on-time. So, I decided, if I have to edit the position of each Project Marker, I might as well start with tempo markers and adjust them instead, skipping project markers altogether.

When I go through editing each tempo marker position (after arbitrarily generating one every 2 or 4 measures), I set the grid back to 1/4 notes and adjust the marker position relative to 2 or 4 measures-worth of 1/4 note transients. This way compensates for off-time transients and shows me when more tempo markers are required. But, the process is slow... accurate but slow.

If one starts with project markers, they can convert them all to tempo markers in one action using SWS/BR: Convert project markers to tempo.

If from groove markers like your method, it looks like there is a way to loop an action(s). It's done through SWS/S&M: Open Cycle Action editor
Wiki: http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.ph..._S%26M_Cycling
Cycle Action Logic Statements: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...postcount=1137

I have Melodyne 4 Studio which I thought would do all this for me automatically, but the algorithms can't seem to figure it out correctly. My buddy was laughing because he was like,"Ableton Live will map the tempo as soon as you drop in the file." So, we dropped the same files into Ableton to check. Guess what? Ableton couldn't map it automatically either. Maybe one day tempo mapping will be all automatic, but apparently not yet in 2018.
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Old 03-01-2018, 10:00 PM   #9
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Math method like

analyse spectrum ->
get spectrum transients by checking rise of spectrum power (probably RMS of lower part or spectrum or maybe even a simple amplitude RMS) - >
analyze with some complex math to get approximate flowing tempo through the song - >
fill by points based on this tempo - >
filter only bar points - >
stretch (not quantize) to desired tempo


is anyway faster and require 1 click. The only need is to put proper request to some kind person to JSFX/ReaScript forum branch (this is a pretty damn complex request of course).
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:59 AM   #10
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Hi,
Nm...I misread

Last edited by LugNut; 03-07-2018 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 02-08-2021, 04:19 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido View Post
The first track above is the song we want to match..
this particular piece of audio needed some band pass eq to bring out the kick drum...that is the second track in the above image.
It is a render of the first tracks output after the eq..

The Eq...

Hi and thanks for the guide, I tried this but couldn't get it to work. All I got was a muffled sound and not much isolating.
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Old 02-09-2021, 05:25 AM   #12
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I have used this method in thr past, but lately I've been using grid-warping. It just seems to go quicker.

https://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.p..._grid_with_SWS
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Old 02-09-2021, 05:59 AM   #13
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I use the method outlined by LCipher in this post: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...1&postcount=18. It requires Python, LCipher's script and Sonic Visualizer. It's the fastest easiest way I've found.
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Old 02-09-2021, 06:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypex View Post
Hi and thanks for the guide, I tried this but couldn't get it to work. All I got was a muffled sound and not much isolating.

Hi,

The settings on the eq vary depending on source track. Its just there to emphasize the downbeat transient.
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Old 02-09-2021, 06:41 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azimuth View Post
I use the method outlined by LCipher in this post: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...1&postcount=18. It requires Python, LCipher's script and Sonic Visualizer. It's the fastest easiest way I've found.
Hi,

This looks very interesting. Do you think it would work with an ac gtr rythym track?
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Old 02-09-2021, 07:47 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,

This looks very interesting. Do you think it would work with an ac gtr rythym track?
It has worked pretty well with everything I've tried it on. Time signature changes are usually the only issue to sort out but time signature changes mess up every method I've tried. I did make one small change to the script. I changed:
Code:
bpminit = 1*60/events[0]  # set the initial bpm for the first "1 beat" (time zero)
to

Code:
bpminit = tempos [0]  # set the initial bpm for the first "1 beat" (time zero)
It made the first tempo envelope point more accurate in my opinion.
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Old 02-09-2021, 07:37 PM   #17
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Thx azimuth!
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Old 02-09-2021, 10:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,

The settings on the eq vary depending on source track. Its just there to emphasize the downbeat transient.

Yeah, I gave it a hard track work with, a loud rock track. But, when I look at it, I can see where all the down beats are, at least where the kick is. It may have done something, but not as well as in the example, where it drowned out the most of the noisy artefacts. I find transients can be unreliable, as they can find some beats but skip over other obvious ones. So can be a bit of fiddling with the settings.
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Old 02-10-2021, 09:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azimuth View Post
I use the method outlined by LCipher in this post: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...1&postcount=18. It requires Python, LCipher's script and Sonic Visualizer. It's the fastest easiest way I've found.
That worked really well, thanks for the link.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:00 PM   #20
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By way of comparison, I saw this video in which Logic Pro X DAW is used to create a tempo map from the transients in a live piano track (Spitfire Audio video). The relevant part starts at 21:10. https://youtu.be/ofLc9NxKXmU
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Old 03-06-2021, 04:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IonianStreams View Post
By way of comparison, I saw this video in which Logic Pro X DAW is used to create a tempo map from the transients in a live piano track (Spitfire Audio video).

That's interesting. I didn't expect transients to be complicated enough to map off though I don't know how Logic goes about transient detection. However a solo piano track would provide a clean source so Reaper dynamic splitting could be used for a similar method with some additional add ons.
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Old 03-09-2021, 03:54 PM   #22
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Hi,

Admitadly reapers transient detection could use some refining imho.

If they fixed it all you would need is sws.

Last edited by LugNut; 03-09-2021 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 03-20-2021, 03:28 AM   #23
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Quote:
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Hi,

I tried your FX again and it can work. I think I must have confused it and messed it up. I wasn't sure at first about the other band tab settings and reduced it to one. Then later tried to somehow duplicate it across bands. But just then reset it and applied the settings to the first band. Rendered it to good effect. The output was a bit soft so normalised it and rendered again. The result was good at picking up downbeats. But I found Reaper was still quirky and missed obvious beats where the sensitivity needed to be increased to a high amount. It's strange as sometimes when tabbing it misses some beats but when tabbing the same section again it hits the mark. I wonder if this could explain it constantly missing the mark in scripting. Inconsistency is annoying to debug.
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