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Old 10-22-2017, 11:45 PM   #1
G-Sun
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Default The status of Audio Quantization in Reaper (FR)

-- The status of Audio Quantazing in Reaper, per 4/9/18 --

Native stretch-markers:
- No strength-control
- No groove-tool

SWS items-based
Fingers Groove Tool with Adams fill gaps
works for drums but not much for anything else?

mpl Quantize Tool 1
broken when introducing swing-grid
No support for tempo

spk77_Quantize stretch markers.eel
Nice strenght control. No groove, or from midi.

And there was another user announcing som Qtool script,
but I haven't seen anything released.

-----------------------------------------------------------



-- What we need, FR --

Audio quantization
- with strength control
- groove ability
- intelligent window and adding missing beats

Midi and audio
- Quantization from audio to midi
- Quantization from midi to audio

Groove pool
- Saving grooves
- Editing and making grooves

Transient detection
- Pitch-based detection
- Better control over where markers are placed
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Last edited by G-Sun; 04-09-2018 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 10-23-2017, 09:47 AM   #2
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No-one else interested in this?
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:14 AM   #3
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I am interested!

I wish I knew what to add - it's a problem and one that shouldn't be there, frankly
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:17 AM   #4
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Strange, not many replies.

Are you all playing perfect all the time,
or do you quantize 100% to grid?
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Old 10-24-2017, 02:40 AM   #5
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@G-Sun
Have you tried to contact mpl ?

Meanwhile, you can quantize to 100% grid using regular actions, and apply random time shift after

Xenakios/SWS: Randomize item positions...
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Old 10-24-2017, 02:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Raym View Post
@G-Sun
Have you tried to contact mpl ?
I have talked with mpl in his QTool thread,
but he:
1) Does not have so much use for it himself
2) Believes not so many others are interested
3) Are awaiting enough donations

Quote:
Meanwhile, you can quantize to 100% grid using regular actions, and apply random time shift after
No, random is very different from human groove/push-pull
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:46 AM   #7
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Is this in relation to matching up audio to another groove? I'd love some sort of groove match/quantization.
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:55 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Strange, not many replies.

Are you all playing perfect all the time,
or do you quantize 100% to grid?
Are Led Zeppelin records played perfectly?

I pretty much take the classic rock approach... if there are obvious mistakes I retrack

I dont do any audio quantizing or time stretching
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:17 AM   #9
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I'm of the opinion that quantization and human groove are competing priorities, so this is not something I've considered. Play with feel to click works for me.

I'm open to having my mind changed though.
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by future fields View Post
Are Led Zeppelin records played perfectly?

I pretty much take the classic rock approach... if there are obvious mistakes I retrack

I dont do any audio quantizing or time stretching
Well, as much as that is a valid point of view and practice,
it's as accurate as saying producers shouldn't use pitch-correction.

Now, this situation in Reaper might change my workflow, forcing me to perform better time-wise, and that is always a good thing.
Yet, some time-tools makes my music-production less time-consuming regarding practicing and tracking, allowing me to play what I otherwise would not be able to.

And there is groove quantization (at least in other daws )
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:41 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Raym View Post
@G-Sun
Have you tried to contact mpl ?
The code is very oudated relative to my current skills.
Even for changing internal calculaions from seconds to beats/measures (so it support tempo changes) it need a complete core rebuild, both logic, following complete GUI rebuild, all performance stuff, build functions etc. This will take a lot of time I can`t give to myself currently.

Good news are I still keeping list of feature requests from original thread just in case (if this stuff will be rised somewhere from a lot of people, but I doubt it will ever happen). G-Sun request looks right for me, but too 'overminded' (right term?), especially after listening his nice music. I`m not sure he even need any quantisation.
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:03 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
No-one else interested in this?
Actually I was planning to upgrade Melodyne to full version to manage multitrack recording for audio quantization. I was planning to do this in fear of a bad behavior of Reaper and I saw there were a few complaints about the accuracy of Reaper on this. I am actually unsure if this is real or just some fantasy.

What's your take on it ?

Do you only need it just for some of your tweaks or do you think the basic fonctionnality of audio quantize is ok?

I usually use 'create chromatic midi' quantize this and then send to Superior Drummer. Last time I did this even without quantize just replacement with SD2 I had complaints that drum was off. I personnaly could'nt hear it don't know if it really was.

I would also like to have a true strip silence wich seemed to work much better in Logic. That also tips me off as there could be a problem with transient selection.
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:09 AM   #13
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Thank you for chiming in mpl!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpl View Post
The code is very oudated relative to my current skills.
Even for changing internal calculaions from seconds to beats/measures (so it support tempo changes) it need a complete core rebuild, both logic, following complete GUI rebuild, all performance stuff, build functions etc. This will take a lot of time I can`t give to myself currently.

Good news are I still keeping list of feature requests from original thread just in case (if this stuff will be rised somewhere from a lot of people, but I doubt it will ever happen).
I do understand your considerations here,
and I'm very grateful for your work, with this script and others.
Quote:
G-Sun request looks right for me, but too 'overminded' (right term?), especially after listening his nice music. I`m not sure he even need any quantisation.
Thanks a lot mpl. Yes, maybe I lack a little fate in myself.
Or, is it the good results from using your script that you're hearing
Personally, yes, better playing and less quantization is a plan.
Yet, for Reaper, a flexible audio and midi QTool to grid and groove, is mandatory in the long run.

For now, I have a Reaper v5.111 on a portable location,
and will use it to utilize QTool v1 (export/import, track templates and midi, fingers crossed)
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
allowing me to play what I otherwise would not be able to.
Not a fan of this type of fakery

What about when you need to play the song live?

Man im old lel
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
No-one else interested in this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Well, as much as that is a valid point of view and practice,
it's as accurate as saying producers shouldn't use pitch-correction.
You're absolutely right my friend, recording a band is one thing, they play off each other, but producing music in the way many of us are these days, there's nearly always something that could use a little fixing.

Personally, I don't use quantize on audio, but I do use the stretch markers a lot. I also cut and move audio parts around some. I don't make it perfect, because that can sound a little un-natural, but timing is important, and if it's off far enough, it don't sound right.

And "mpl", I love this guy and I think we all do.
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Old 10-24-2017, 12:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by future fields View Post
Not a fan of this type of fakery
Fakery (or creativity, as some would call it), has been part of the recording business ever since they invented a 4-track tape-machine.
Even The Beatles, as genius and good as they where, had to give up doing it the old way, even when the tried to go back (The Let It Be sessions).

Quote:
What about when you need to play the song live?
I'm a one-man band, studio only at the moment.
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Old 10-24-2017, 12:41 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post

I'm a one-man band, studio only at the moment.
I'm not sure how you are creating the tracks, are you programming them in the ME or playing them? I do a bit of one man band stuff when my main band isn't active but I almost never program any parts and instead play them on the keyboard as MIDI info which gives me feel, then I slip/move anything that is a mistake.

I've never really had success quantizing audio FWIW, it just never seems to be as good as even the ones I play and keep the mistakes.
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Old 10-24-2017, 12:59 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I'm not sure how you are creating the tracks, are you programming them in the ME or playing them? I do a bit of one man band stuff when my main band isn't active but I almost never program any parts and instead play them on the keyboard as MIDI info which gives me feel, then I slip/move anything that is a mistake.

I've never really had success quantizing audio FWIW, it just never seems to be as good as even the ones I play and keep the mistakes.
Usually playing everything, audio and midi.
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:55 PM   #19
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Groove quantize is essential for some types of electronic music, and is the most sorely missed feature in Reaper for me.

MPL, If you don't mind me asking, how many hours approx do you think it would take to code up a new groove quantize version? Maybe a crowd funded project?

I suppose the bummer is that Reaper must get it natively at some point, so it might kind of be in vain? Or not... it has taken so long up until now, we might all be dead before it gets included.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I'm not sure how you are creating the tracks, are you programming them in the ME or playing them? I do a bit of one man band stuff when my main band isn't active but I almost never program any parts and instead play them on the keyboard as MIDI info which gives me feel, then I slip/move anything that is a mistake.

I've never really had success quantizing audio FWIW, it just never seems to be as good as even the ones I play and keep the mistakes.
Yeah, I agree with you as usual Karbo, when doing things by yourself, play it, and play it with feeling until you get it right, both audio and midi. From what I've heard of your guitar playing, you do a great job of it. I don't think I've heard you playing with midi tracks, but I'm sure you've pretty much got it nailed. Of course you have a lot of experience.

My scenario is a little different. I'm totally retired but I still have clients who are keeping me busy almost every day. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally loving it, I've basically done this all my life and I love it.

So here's kind of a scenario that reflects many of my projects with these clients. Most of my clients play acoustic guitar and sing, that's where I start. Then I usually put in midi drums which I play in, but then I will quantize them at least 70 to 85%, sometimes 100% if the situation warrants it. The drums are going to be the foundation and the basis from which I will play the rest of the midi parts. They are also going to play a part in how I judge my clients timing on their acoustic guitar with my ears.

From there I play each midi track from my keyboard, putting everything I have in me, to doing it with feel. Depending on who the client is, or maybe more importantly, how good the song is, I might do this over and over again, many times. When each track is done, I may or may not quantize, but if I do it's usually only 40 to 60%. I also pay close attention to where my timing is showing up, so as not to be all ahead of or behind the beat. That can happen when you do it all yourself.

Heh heh, then there's the string arrangements that are in about 30 to 40% of the songs I produce. These have nothing to do with quantizing, they're shear programming.

I can completely understand G-suns situation, and I don't think it's a lot different from many, if not most folks who are on their own, trying to create the music they love, with less then ideal situations.
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I can completely understand G-suns situation, and I don't think it's a lot different from many, if not most folks who are on their own, trying to create the music they love, with less then ideal situations.
I certainly don't disagree, I was just curious how he was doing things. From time to time I'll compose some EDM type stuff - well I don't know what you call it but it's mostly synths and electronic four on the floor stuff, there, it's likely just going to be on the grid and some of the composition there too aka like step sequencing. Wish I did more of those actually just because they are fun and so different than my norm...

http://wallsonic.com/1950DA.2.mp3
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:03 PM   #22
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I certainly don't disagree, I was just curious how he was doing things. From time to time I'll compose some EDM type stuff - well I don't know what you call it but it's mostly synths and electronic four on the floor stuff, there, it's likely just going to be on the grid and some of the composition there too aka like step sequencing. Wish I did more of those actually just because they are fun and so different than my norm...

http://wallsonic.com/1950DA.2.mp3
I think it sound good Karbo, all the elements are there. I've never really tried that kind of music, or more accurately, never really had an opportunity to try it. I've heard some of that music that sounds good, but it's very boring with long periods of time that have the same sound over and over. Your's isn't quite like that, it has some nicer changes.
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:29 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I may or may not quantize, but if I do it's usually only 40 to 60%.
Yes, 40-80% is typical for drums/perc (audio) and piano (midi) here,
preferably to groove. Then I'd quantize anything or nothing of bass, guitar etc. according to ear/need.
Aiming for lower % and more individual marker tweaks.
Getting the right feel when tracking is the goal
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:24 AM   #24
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The industry uses editing, melodyne, autotune etc...
Since i do this for a living, i have to do what i'm hired to do...editing is one of this tasks and, well, migrating from ProTools to Reaper, Beat Detective is the only thing I miss from PT.
I think is now time to update dynamic split to make it work better than BD.
Some ideas:

- better workflow with grouped items with the ability of collecting and editing slice points from multiple tracks from the same group, so you can collect hits from the kick and the snare, delete unwanted slice points, and cut the regions.
I'm thinking of away to use stretch markers as slice points for collection...but i'm a little stuck XD
So an integrated solution would be killer.

- Improve transient detection: PT uses some "filtered" detection algorithms that help a lot in transient detection. I think that "filtering" the detector with just a low pass, high pass and a band-pass would improve transient detection exponentially (think of it like a sidechain filter in a compressor)
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Old 10-25-2017, 03:36 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjoe View Post
I think is now time to update dynamic split to make it work better than BD.
Some ideas:

- better workflow with grouped items with the ability of collecting and editing slice points from multiple tracks from the same group, so you can collect hits from the kick and the snare, delete unwanted slice points, and cut the regions.
I'm thinking of away to use stretch markers as slice points for collection...but i'm a little stuck XD
So an integrated solution would be killer.

- Improve transient detection: PT uses some "filtered" detection algorithms that help a lot in transient detection. I think that "filtering" the detector with just a low pass, high pass and a band-pass would improve transient detection exponentially (think of it like a sidechain filter in a compressor)
Filtered algos in transient-detection would indeed be very useful.
Presets for the most typical instruments could be very helpful as well.

The other thing you have to describe a little better for me to get.

Regarding splitting: I thought when strech-markers came that I'd never go back to splitting on every transient to quantize -such a mess.
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Old 10-25-2017, 06:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Regarding splitting: I thought when strech-markers came that I'd never go back to splitting on every transient to quantize -such a mess.
You can use mpl_Stretch marker guard at final step, when stretching drums with stretch markers, so it prevent damaging transients by stretch algorithms.
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If you don't mind me asking, how many hours approx do you think it would take to code up a new groove quantize version? Maybe a crowd funded project?
Actually now I`m very closer to persons who live in a street with no money, so I`m trying to find at least a good job right now, and for that reason bulding such big projects is out of my possibilities unfortunately, and of course can take 6-12 months of coding by 2-3 hours a day approximately. For same reason I stopped making almost any musical stuff, that killing me more.

Last edited by mpl; 10-25-2017 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 10-26-2017, 07:27 AM   #27
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Quote:
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Actually now I`m very closer to persons who live in a street with no money, so I`m trying to find at least a good job right now, and for that reason bulding such big projects is out of my possibilities unfortunately, and of course can take 6-12 months of coding by 2-3 hours a day approximately. For same reason I stopped making almost any musical stuff, that killing me more.
Hope you get some new work OK! I am switching career to web development, currently learning ES6 Javascript inside out. You are obviously a great programmer, you might consider giving freelance Javascript or PHP application development a go. It's good money, but you need to stand out from the crowd. You are going to have to really market yourself, and that is as big a job as being a good coder!
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:10 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Hope you get some new work OK! I am switching career to web development, currently learning ES6 Javascript inside out. You are obviously a great programmer, you might consider giving freelance Javascript or PHP application development a go. It's good money, but you need to stand out from the crowd. You are going to have to really market yourself, and that is as big a job as being a good coder!
Reminds me that I do paid web-design work, but suck at programming..
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Old 03-12-2018, 03:19 AM   #29
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Any news on quantize audio transient markers built-in?
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:13 AM   #30
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No news.
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Old 03-12-2018, 01:01 PM   #31
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I see two options for me:
1) Play better
2) Use another DAW

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Old 03-12-2018, 01:03 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by mpl View Post
Actually now I`m very closer to persons who live in a street with no money, so I`m trying to find at least a good job right now, and for that reason bulding such big projects is out of my possibilities unfortunately, and of course can take 6-12 months of coding by 2-3 hours a day approximately. For same reason I stopped making almost any musical stuff, that killing me more.
Hope you're doing better mpl.
Sorry, for not paying you better for all your awesome work,
but I've been quite down on the economy-side as well.
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:08 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
mpl Quantize Tool 1
broken when introducing swing-grid
No support for tempo

I replied to you on GS, but I'll do so here as well:

"Script: spk77_Quantize stretch markers.eel" works with swing grid and tempo.
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:12 AM   #34
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I replied to you on GS, but I'll do so here as well:

"Script: spk77_Quantize stretch markers.eel" works with swing grid and tempo.
Thanks, but no strength, no groove.
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:16 AM   #35
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Thanks, but no strength, no groove.
It does have strength, that's how you use it is via a strength slider?
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:17 AM   #36
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It does have strength, that's how you use it is via a strength slider?
Indeed. My bad. Thanks for the tip!

(First post edited)
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Old 04-08-2018, 05:04 PM   #37
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Is there a FR for this yet? With ARA support coming, I think this is the only other thing from S1 that I miss (and phase-correct stretch marker grouping which I *think* isn't possible yet?)
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Old 04-09-2018, 12:31 AM   #38
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Is there a FR for this yet? With ARA support coming, I think this is the only other thing from S1 that I miss (and phase-correct stretch marker grouping which I *think* isn't possible yet?)
I made this into an FR,
and edited first post.

Please add your comments and suggestions
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Old 04-09-2018, 12:45 AM   #39
ChristopherT
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I don't know how this slipped me by,
I give it a huge thumbs up

I can see many creative journeys with these features
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:29 AM   #40
StuhRAH
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
I made this into an FR,
and edited first post.

Please add your comments and suggestions
Does it need putting in the FR forum? Just for clarification, is phase-accurate grouped items stretch marker moving currently supported? If not, that could be added to the suggestions.
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