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Old 06-03-2020, 07:49 AM   #1
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Default Please Devs: Smart disabling Tracks (over Time) when no audio passes

Sooo... this is very important in my opinion:

I`m really missing the feature "smart dislabling tracks/FX when no audio passes the track".
(that means --> disabling/muting/unload FX from CPU when track doesnīt pass audio)

My CPU canīt handle the amount of VST-Insturments and VST-Effects I use over the time-span of 8 minutes. And this is not because of the amount of VSTs playing at the same time... this is because they get calculated despite the fact they may only play a very short time in the time-span of the song.

I always read everywhere that Reaper is such a CPU efficient programm and it is so great with handling big projects etc...

Unfortunatly, as Iīm now working on my first "real" big project with Reaper exclusively (fully migrated now to Reaper over the last 3-4 months), I must discover that Reaper doesnīt have "smart disalbe tracks" and therfore canīt handle my big projects (in the end usally 100-150 Tracks containing lotīs of VSTi and VSTs ---> BUT spread over 8 mins: only 15-25 Tracks are playing at the same time or in a fast/short sequential order).

Comparing a real life scenario between Bitwig and Reaper I come to the conclusion that Reaper isnīt good at handling projects the size/weight Bitwig can... only becuase Reaper has no "smart disabling" function for tracks.


Please Devs... Please... make this happen. I really feel cornered now... What should I do... I donīt want to go back to Bitwig... I love Reaper. But I also want to create full 8 min songs, and not only song snippets.

Last edited by operator; 06-04-2020 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 06-03-2020, 08:37 AM   #2
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experimental option in preferences>audio
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Old 06-03-2020, 08:51 AM   #3
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experimental option in preferences>audio
Why is this called experimental?
Thanks :-).

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Old 06-03-2020, 09:15 AM   #4
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I don't know much about it. I've always had it off, and keep track number minimal in projects
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:09 AM   #5
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Unfortunatly this doesnīt really work. Seems to make no difference (very little) if I play a part with only kick and bass (bounced audio few FX) or a part where I have several heavy duty Synths plus heavy processing going.

When I do the same in Bitwig I see a siginificant drop in CPU usage.


Please Devs. It would be so great if this gets a little attention. :-)

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Old 06-04-2020, 02:34 AM   #6
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Does someone has some experience in working with this option (Reduce CPU use of silent tracks) enabled?

Does someone tested this or has some information why it doesnīt seem to work?
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:52 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
Does someone has some experience in working with this option (Reduce CPU use of silent tracks) enabled?

Does someone tested this or has some information why it doesnīt seem to work?
I've heard that it really reduces CPU usage for silent tracks, but raise CPU usage for other tracks.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:36 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
I've heard that it really reduces CPU usage for silent tracks, but raise CPU usage for other tracks.
Thanks for the info. :-) Hmmm... this does seem to me, as if it was introduced but shortly after it got abandoned without ever really working like intended.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
Thanks for the info. :-) Hmmm... this does seem to me, as if it was introduced but shortly after it got abandoned without ever really working like intended.
That's why it's experimental.
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:06 AM   #10
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Isn't it also a main difference for VST2- and VST3-Plugins?
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:33 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by OLSHALOM View Post
Isn't it also a main difference for VST2- and VST3-Plugins?
As far as I know, the Host/DAW could do this in general (with VST2 aswell or JSFX/AU/...). It must be similar to the Mute Button... doesnīt need VST3 to mute a track, right?. (in Reaper it unloads the CPU when a track is muted despite the Plugin format)

VST3 has something like that built in aswell.. but must be enabled by the user (in the DAW) and currently Steinberg recommends to disable the function in Cubase due to problems. (currently discussed in the Melda Forum and Melda for example doesnīt has it enabled, yet --> may change in the near future.)

Abelton, Bitwig and FL have such a feature and didnīt Ableton introduced VST3 only a while ago. So it canīt be dependend on the VST Format --> I think it is the same method like muting, just in the background.

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Old 06-05-2020, 02:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLSHALOM View Post
Isn't it also a main difference for VST2- and VST3-Plugins?
VST3 plugin should support the feature for CPU usage reduction. I'm afraid plenty of them don't.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:15 AM   #13
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you can automate the bypass of the plugins. I known it is not automatic as you are asking, but at least it is something.
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda View Post
you can automate the bypass of the plugins.
I know you mean it in a good way and try to really help me. :-) And I thank you very much for that. But... Cīmon. :-) :-P

Automating the Bypass of 3-10 VST per track (ca. 100 Tracks per song) over 8 minutes and still keep it creative and flexible, arenīt the most appealing thing to do. It might be a technical possible workaround but in a "real life scenario" it wouldnīt be a good workflow. Keeping the overview is almost impossible... and the "regular" song-related automations would go under or the bypass-automation would just interfere.


This would be such a great benefit (i think for every Reaper User). Doesnīt we all struggle with the "limited" CPU Performance Audio-Production allows. Every Song has a few parts (Verse, Chorus,.... or... A,B,A,C.... or... Part A, Break, Drop, Part B... or... Sound-Design sktech 1, sketch 2,... etc.) and often different/additional Instruments, FX are playing in those sections... so why not free the CPU of the VSTs from one section when working on the other...

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Old 06-05-2020, 05:06 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by heda View Post
you can automate the bypass of the plugins. I known it is not automatic as you are asking, but at least it is something.
I would not recommend bypass automating, because a plugin get bypassed with delay, what can cause some unpredictable results. Also you'd have to bypass every plugin independently. Okay, you can modulate it by parameter, but still. And some plugins are not dealing with bypassing correctly.
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Old 06-06-2020, 05:29 AM   #16
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I really wonder if this experimental "track disable" option only isnīt working on my computer or if it is in general like this... or maybe even it is disabled by the Devs.
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Old 07-10-2020, 03:01 PM   #17
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I think it is working but not very efficient. Muted tracks will still consume CPU.
I guess this is a deeply weaved design choice and cannot be altered in an easy way.
Reaper will always reserve/assign a certain amount of resources for existing tracks, whether they are muted or not. That’s why projects with a lot of tracks like +1000 will become really slow and sluggish.
But I’m also hoping for a solution in the future.
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Old 07-11-2020, 04:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
I think it is working but not very efficient. Muted tracks will still consume CPU.
I guess this is a deeply weaved design choice and cannot be altered in an easy way.
Reaper will always reserve/assign a certain amount of resources for existing tracks, whether they are muted or not. That’s why projects with a lot of tracks like +1000 will become really slow and sluggish.
But I’m also hoping for a solution in the future.
Damn, never was at a track count of +1k... but this is a Sound-Design Project then, right???

Maybe it is harder to solve as I imagine... but having an "adaptive CPU function" seems the "new" norm to me since I worked so long with Bitwig... it is such an intuitive assumption to think that an FX of an item at the start of the project doesnīt affect the CPU load when playing the last few seconds of the project...

Now I use the Freeze function to substitute for this behaviour BUT it is just not the same.... I would really love to see some love for the "CPU efficency department" of REAPER.
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Old 07-11-2020, 04:19 AM   #19
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Could you maybe provide a test project? I would love to give it a try on my system. Maybe we are able to find the culprit and maybe it is not related to the issues I mentioned.
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Old 07-11-2020, 05:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
Could you maybe provide a test project? I would love to give it a try on my system. Maybe we are able to find the culprit and maybe it is not related to the issues I mentioned.
What should that test project include? And what would our goals be? Iīm mainly talking about the "Reduce CPU use of silent tracks" function and not about the CPU load of a track during the mute state.Or am I missing something?

But in general, of course I would love to provide a test-project... But at first letīs define our goals and what we want to gain from this test project. I just would use some Serum VST to make a quick idea with high voice count to max out the CPU then spread them over time and try to create some empty pockets inbetween. I also would throw in some Fab Q in Linear phase mode to increase CPU load... I think you/everyone has those two VSTs, right? And maybe make the same thing in Bitwig and then compare the dynamic VST load... so we can see how much VSTīs we can use over time in each host.

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Old 07-11-2020, 05:42 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by operator View Post
...
<snip>(Serum VSTi and Fab-Q VST)
I think you/everyone has those two VSTs, right?
<snip>...
Hmm, may I ask what indicies you have to let you think that way, please?
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Old 07-11-2020, 06:39 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by akademie View Post
Hmm, may I ask what indicies you have to let you think that way, please?
Ok letīs rephrase... Of course not EVERYBODY has those VSTs... BUT I think the majority who uses Reaper for sound-design and music-production has those two VST... Doesnīt even a non-electronic musician has Serum (the most popular synth) and fab q (most popular EQ)?
Even Kanye has a cracked version of Serum... ;-) :-P


I just thought of the two most popular 3rd party VST we could use in this experiment... because maxing out the CPU with stock FX can be challanging and just introduces another failure-parameter due to amount of FX used...

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Old 07-11-2020, 12:38 PM   #23
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I am sorry to say that, but even your descriptions are also a bit misleading (or a fantasy).
Serum is not a holy grail as is not the Pro Q. By no means.

Maybe you have seen them on lots of youtube videos, that's all and nothing.

Anyway, it does not matter. Only to test some projects across many users and their systems it is very common to stay in realm of free (non-installable even better) plugins. So even if there is someone who, for an incomprehensible reason, does not have that fancy plugin that everybody else has, he/she can download it, copy to VST folder and use it for testing.
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Old 07-12-2020, 12:57 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by akademie View Post
Maybe you have seen them on lots of youtube videos, that's all and nothing.
No need to patronize me... :-) and yes I saw them in a lot of videos (of course, who didnīt? itīs one of the most popular synths... dude?). But also, ;-) I saw them on the screens of a lot of colleagues I had the honor to cross path with... so I donīt just speek from my experience.

If this is not your cup of tea... "Guess what?" "Chicken Butt!"... Rather than insulting musicians who stand behind a forum alias you donīt know nothing about, maybe try to bring some constructive ideas to the disgussion... because I donīt have time for this dance...

Maybe, if you feel offended by me saying Serum is one of the most popular synth out there, so you then have to make a post about "how serum isnīt...", maybe you should rethink and restructure your own fantasy world... List some synth or FX so your post gets some intrinsic value.. I donīt want to, to have to pull it out of your nose... If your such an experienced Tester, why not bring some ideas to the table or even a whole concept... #CaptainHindsight

Are you even intrested to participate in the testing to futher the Feature Request or did you just want to wave your dick arround? (Iīm honestly curious!)


Do you or does anybody know CPU heavy software that is free???? Does the Melda Free Bundle has oversampling? I only got the CompleteBundle... Maybe with Melda we could be there pretty fast...

How is it with Surge, Tyrell, Melda Free Bundle, Slick EQ... most software I use is payware so I never needed to dig deep in free-software-land and therefore donīt know the ones that use up the most resources... I would prefer testing Melda and Tyrell because then I wouldnīt have to install anything.

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Old 07-12-2020, 01:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
. Muted tracks will still consume CPU.
This can be configured.
-Michael
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Old 07-12-2020, 01:15 AM   #26
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A track that does not use the CPU can't detect if there is any audio in a Media Item, generated by a plugin or routed to it.

Moreover a track can generate Midi and no audio.

What about just doing an envelop for mute and manually define the passive intervals ?

-Michael

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Old 07-12-2020, 01:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
A track that does not use the CPU can't detect if there is any audio in a Media Item, generated by a plugin or routed to it.

Moreover a track can generate Midi an no audio.

What about just doing an envelop for mute and manually define the passive intervals ?

-Michael
As far as I remember corectly I read in a forum post, that automating the mute doesnīt free up CPU... only manually clicking the mute does the job... I think that even Justin wrote that post.

Unfortunatly Iīm no Dev... I donīt know the underlying functions behind the "adaptive disabling FX/VST when they arenīt in use", BUT Bitwig has it working and itīs a charm!!! Please, if you have doubts try the bitwig demo and test this behaviour (when changing from a CPU heavy section to a "undemanding" section where only a few samples are playing the CPU load drops SIGNIFICANT (from full load to almost none)

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Old 07-12-2020, 02:05 AM   #28
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Cutting to the chase, have you considered approachiung this differently & freezing the tracks where you DONT need to diusable the plugins throughout the track? Works really well for me - I too have a creaky old computer with a i7 quad 4770 cpu.
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Old 07-12-2020, 02:16 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Cutting to the chase, have you considered approachiung this differently & freezing the tracks where you DONT need to diusable the plugins throughout the track? Works really well for me - I too have a creaky old computer with a i7 quad 4770 cpu.
In an earlier post (above) I wrote, that I already substitute this behaviour with freezing the tracks... BUT unfortunatly it isnīt as convinient as smart disable. :-( the possibility would be there, so why not implement it?

I also have an old CPU, i7 4790k (but still somehow relevant in single core performance)...

I just learned in my Bitwig years how convinient this function can be, and Iīm just longing for this... SO, SUE ME! :-) ;-P *jk*

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Old 07-12-2020, 02:43 AM   #30
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A little birdy was kind enough and chirped me a message in my ear. It seems that I was too harsh with the comments towards "Akademie"...

Sorry Akademie, sometimes I just take it too personally.

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Old 07-12-2020, 03:13 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
A little birdy was kind enough and chirped me a message in my ear. It seems that I was to harsh with the comments towards "Akademie"...

Sorry Akademie, sometimes I just take it too personally.
Not a problem, operator.

I only think you misunderstood me previously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
...<snip>
Maybe, if you feel offended by me saying Serum is one of the most popular synth out there, <snip>...
I did not say that it isn't. I only pointed to the thinking that everybody has it.
Because maybe the lot of people who have it actually won't test your project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
...
maybe try to bring some constructive ideas to the disgussion....
Quote:
Originally Posted by akademie
Only to test some projects across many users and their systems it is very common to stay in realm of free (non-installable even better) plugins.
Umm, I thought that this was just the constructive approach to help realize the testing widely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
...
Are you even intrested to participate in the testing...?...
Sure I am. That's why I added my 2cents to the discussion. If the project use only free plugins that don't have to be installed, I can test it on few different system configurations (most of them are 32-bit).

I hope you understood my intention as to help, not the opposite.
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Old 07-12-2020, 03:32 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
This can be configured.
-Michael
Itīs weird, but the Mute doesnīt free up the CPU load over here aswell. But it worked some time ago.
Even when I have it enabled in the Prefrencese... :-) seems to be a legit bug...


*giggle-like-a-snotty-brat* maybe it is a sign of the DAW gods that this function suddenly is buggy... maybe resolving the mute bug could be tied to the "smart disable FX" feature request.

Should I make a dedicated Bug-Report, or will the Devs stummble upon it in here aswell? (still am learning the convention of this forum:-))

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Old 07-12-2020, 03:38 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akademie View Post

I only think you misunderstood me previously:

[...]

I hope you understood my intention as to help, not the opposite.
Yes I misunderstood you. And yes, now I know you had only good intentions. Initially I thought you were just a "nay-sayer". I was wrong...
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Old 07-12-2020, 04:03 AM   #34
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Itīs weird, but the Mute doesnīt free up the CPU load over here aswell. But it worked some time ago.
<snip>...
Couldn't it be because of some routing of the track (Sends/Receives)?
Maybe the routing prevents the CPU unload even the track itself is muted.

Can you try this Track MUTE thing on new project with only one track to see if it makes a difference?

EDIT:
Also, aren't the tracks Record Armed? Because if they are then processing of themj will be still enabled even if track is muted.
Tested here right now (v6.12+dev0616). Two tracks (each approx 2% CPU) one track rec.armed second not. MUTE first one does nothing to CPU consumption, MUTE second and that tracks consumes 0% immediately.

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Old 07-12-2020, 04:07 AM   #35
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I think devs are already aware that muted tracks still use resources. There are some threads about it.

+1 for complete track disabling
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Old 07-12-2020, 04:27 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akademie View Post
Couldn't it be because of some routing of the track (Sends/Receives)?
Maybe the routing prevents the CPU unload even the track itself is muted.
I just threw some random heavy VSTs on the track and duplicated it.. (1 serum, 5 MSpectralDynamics and 1 Presswerk all on the most demanding settings) No track is record armed, no routing is going on and still track uses CPU while being muted... see image... sry for the bad quality, but I think you can see what is going on.
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Old 07-12-2020, 04:34 AM   #37
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+1 for complete track disabling
THANK YOU... Youīre the man... what can I buy you for a drink? ;-)
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Old 07-12-2020, 05:10 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operator View Post
Sooo... this is very important in my opinion:

blabla

My CPU canīt handle the amount of VST-Insturments and VST-Effects I use over the time-span of 8 minutes. bla bla bla
Why not get a better CPU?

You can't handle heavy loads when your arms are too thin.
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Old 07-12-2020, 05:24 AM   #39
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I just threw some random heavy VSTs on the track and duplicated it.. (1 serum, 5 MSpectralDynamics and 1 Presswerk all on the most demanding settings) No track is record armed, no routing is going on and still track uses CPU while being muted... see image... sry for the bad quality, but I think you can see what is going on.
Hmm, it's strange.

I cannot get something apparent from "Reduce CPU on silent tracks..." option.
But simple MUTE of tracks (while "Do not process muted tracks" is checked) definitely works here and worked all the time for ages in all versions (for me). Never had problem with it.
Oh, and I am on x86.\
So it leads me to another question: Aren't your plugins bridged?

EDIT:
Also, is the GUI of plugins open? If it is, then it could block this Reaper's functionality in some case, maybe.
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Old 07-12-2020, 06:33 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akademie View Post
Hmm, it's strange.

Aren't your plugins bridged?
No I have Windows, Reaper and all Plugins in 64 bit... I was able to retire all my 32-bit plugins a few years ago so no bridging needed...


I will check it again later when Iīm back in the Lab... maybe I made a failure. But "heda" seems to know also about this Bug and hinted to other forum posts about this...

Hopefully someone with more insights will enlighten us on this topic...
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