Old 11-12-2016, 11:01 AM   #1
Ansio
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Default Stuck MIDI notes with synth plugins

I'm not sure if these are problems with REAPER sending midi or the plugins receving it, but I can't reproduce these with other daws and it isn't just a single plugin/developer so I decided to post this. I believe at least the first one is a REAPER bug because it happens also with ReaSynth, the rest may not be. These are all related to editing midi when REAPER is playing.

These happen with for example Synthmaster, u-he plugins like Zebralette and Image-line plugins like Harmor. Number 1 happens with all the synths I have installed (including ReaSynth), 2 and 3 only on these specific ones.

1)
- Draw a note in a midi item on a track with a synth plugin on it.
- Move the midi item to an empty track, then move it back.
- Play.
- In the middle of the note, undo (ctrl+z) so that the midi item moves back to the empty track. There should be a stuck note.

2)
- Draw a note in a midi item on a track with a synth plugin on it.
- Edit start offset with alt+left drag
- Play
- In the middle of the note, undo (ctrl+z) the offset editing. There should be a stuck note.

3) This one sometimes happens when I'm copying midi around, this is a simplest way I could find to reproduce it but it doesn't always happen.
- Open midi editor for a midi item on a track that has a synth plugin on it.
- Insert a long note
- Play
- Insert a shorter note and move it around on top of the longer note, at the same pitch, while playing. There is sometimes a stuck note.

Also changing the tempo using mouse scroll when a note is playing on an u-he synth causes stuck notes.

Windows 10 64-bit and REAPER 5.28 64-bit.
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Old 11-12-2016, 02:26 PM   #2
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100% of those + other similar cases when the note off never gets sent happen on hardware synths also.
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Old 11-12-2016, 03:43 PM   #3
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I also have a feeling that notes off might be sending wrong value, causing sample releases to be louder then they should.
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Old 11-12-2016, 11:41 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
I also have a feeling that notes off might be sending wrong value, causing sample releases to be louder then they should.
Does the synth hardware / plugin use release velocity ? If yes, of course any note-off event needs to be input / edited appropriate. No Idea how this is done. And I have absolutely no idea how fake note-off events in the situations described by the OP should be generated.

A synth is supposed to accept a "note on" with velocity zero as a "note-off" with undefined release velocity and react "appropriately".

ReaMidiConmtrol's log window should show the events sent.

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Old 11-14-2016, 02:13 PM   #5
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Each MIDI note consists of two messages: a Note-On message that is sent when the note starts, and a Note-Off message that is sent when the note ends (and which must carry the same pitch information as the preceding Note-On).

If there are unexpected changes in your project while a note is playing, it sometimes happens that the Note-Off is never sent, or it is sent on the wrong pitch. When this happens, you get a stuck note.

REAPER can gracefully handle common situations such as playback stopping or looping while a note is playing (unless there is a bug), but unfortunately, I don't think it is possible for REAPER to prepare for every contingency.

For unusual cases such as moving items while playing, the action "Send all note off to all MIDI outputs/plug-ins" should help to reset everything.

Last edited by juliansader; 11-14-2016 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:01 PM   #6
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Seconded! Someone really loves testing MIDI note handling to the breaking point.

I don't know how much of a priority it is, but it's certainly a situation where small, incremental improvements over time can iron out these corner cases as mad scientists end users discover them.
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Old 01-18-2017, 08:24 AM   #7
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I've noticed that #3 doesn't happen with 5.211 or earlier. Also, the hanging note in #1 stops when pausing or stopping and at the end of the loop, #2 and #3 don't. All bugs are still present in 5.32.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:39 AM   #8
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One more:

1) Insert a long note in the piano roll and then a short note with the same pitch on the long note
2) Play
3) Move the either note up or down when both notes are playing
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Old 01-29-2017, 07:05 AM   #9
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Ansio: |Set up a small projec like you said, inserted EZKeys and tried moving the short note while the long note was playing. No problem. So Then I extended it even longer and looped it.
Still no problem.

Have you had a look at anything you mighgt have changed in options that could be causing this?
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Old 01-29-2017, 07:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Ansio: |Set up a small projec like you said, inserted EZKeys and tried moving the short note while the long note was playing. No problem. So Then I extended it even longer and looped it.
Still no problem.

Have you had a look at anything you mighgt have changed in options that could be causing this?
It may not happen with EZkeys, these only happen with some plugins as I mentioned in the first post (worst with u-he). Of course the problem may be with REAPER or the plugins, I have contacted the plugin companies as well.

I can't think of any option that's causing this, if somebody knows please inform me
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansio View Post
One more:

1) Insert a long note in the piano roll and then a short note with the same pitch on the long note
2) Play
3) Move the either note up or down when both notes are playing
Just reproduced this with Zebra2 and ACE

EDIT: Can't reproduce with some other synths (Massive, ME80). so this may be a U-HE quirk?

Last edited by Lannister; 01-29-2017 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lannister View Post
Just reproduced this with Zebra2 and ACE

EDIT: Can't reproduce with some other synths (Massive, ME80). so this may be a U-HE quirk?
It also happens with Image-Line Harmor and Sytrus and Synthmaster (except that Synthmaster hanging notes stop on stop) so it's not exclusive to u-he. Of course it's possible that all these synths lack the same vst midi technical stuff needed to work with REAPER, I have no knowledge on programming

It doesn't happen with TAL-Noisemaker and PG-8X but these seem to cut the first note when second one with the same pitch is played.
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Old 01-29-2017, 02:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansio View Post
One more:

1) Insert a long note in the piano roll and then a short note with the same pitch on the long note
2) Play
3) Move the either note up or down when both notes are playing
That's not a realistic scenario anyway, as you can't play the same key if it's already held down.
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That's not a realistic scenario anyway, as you can't play the same key if it's already held down.
That's true if you record the midi, I do most of my midi work with mouse and this can happen when dragging around notes while playing. I admit it's rare, I mainly posted this if it's linked to the other ones and would help solving them.

Also I might want to emulate a guitar playing the same note on two different strings and letting them ring, it would require the second note to start before the first one ends. That's kind of unrelated though
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:35 PM   #15
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There's an option in MIDI editor to correct overlapping notes like while editing. Use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansio View Post
Also I might want to emulate a guitar playing the same note on two different strings and letting them ring, it would require the second note to start before the first one ends. That's kind of unrelated though
Valid example. For that, I'd recommend using different MIDI channels. Not only does it make sense (because MIDI guitars would produce you with the same result), you also won't get any hung notes.
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Old 01-30-2017, 06:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
There's an option in MIDI editor to correct overlapping notes like while editing. Use it.
That fixes some scenarios, although it's not optimal if I'd prefer to not fix the overlaps. Thanks!
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:28 PM   #17
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I tried using a midi monitoring plugin and it seems that Reaper doesn't send note off messages in any of these cases. One additional case is when looping and playing midi keyboard, sometimes there are stuck notes when notes are played during the jump from loop end to the beginning. I can't figure out a certain way to reproduce it though.
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:35 PM   #18
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Longstanding Reaper issue for me, for many years now.
Thats all i can say.
You're not alone.
Wish i could help you.

OSX 10.12.3
Reaper 5.40-64bit.
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Old 03-25-2017, 04:06 PM   #19
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Yeah, one of the cases is when project is playing and you change the instrument(or replace it), The last note is sustained and you should stop and then play again to prevent such a thing.
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Old 03-25-2017, 05:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Yeah, one of the cases is when project is playing and you change the instrument(or replace it), The last note is sustained and you should stop and then play again to prevent such a thing.
I know what you're talking about, and that's a normal situation if the software doesn't recognize the change.

Yet I believe this is not what this issue is about.

I've also reported my issue which is somewhat similar, yet larger in scope. Could be related to this same issue. But for me I've detected that it's when Reaper has multiple track to the same MIDI device.

It's pretty easy for devs to get the concept wrong about how MIDI devices are handled and redundancy.
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:48 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by jmorel33 View Post
I know what you're talking about, and that's a normal situation if the software doesn't recognize the change.
What I'm writing about is connected with plugins, not with Reaper, but it would be great to improve the behavior when change vsti. Some plugins don't sustain the sound.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:55 PM   #22
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One more: When a note is playing, move it backwards so that it stretches the midi item to the left and you get a stuck note.

I also noticed with midi monitoring that Reaper seems to send additional note on messages when doing the actions I have mentioned and changing tempo with scroll wheel, but for example FL-Studio doesn't. Could this be the core of the problem?
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:00 PM   #23
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It's not a good idea to change the length of the note while it's playing anyways...
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
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It's not a good idea to change the length of the note while it's playing anyways...
Do you mean when changing the tempo? Why not?
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:07 PM   #25
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No, I mean in the scenario you mentioned. "When a note is playing, move it backwards so that it stretches the midi item to the left and you get a stuck note."

Why would anyone change length of a note while it's playing is beyond me. It's bound to wreak havoc.
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:19 PM   #26
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Workflow habits I guess. If I work on a small loop (4 bar bass line over a drum loop for example) I like to let it loop and simultaneously draw ideas, that way I don't have to keep pressing space every second. The thing I mentioned happens when I accidentally draw the note over the edge. Of course there's an option to stop notes from extending the media item, but I also like that on the right side.

I do realize that it's possible to learn to avoid all these things, but I think they are still bugs.
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:42 PM   #27
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Can't blame a guy that used to work a certain way and didn't have an issue, to get to do the same things in Reaper and poof!....
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:58 AM   #28
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New one, happened by accident, I can't imagine a situation that you wish to actually do this: Draw a (long) midi note inside a looped midi item. When the note is playing, in the midi editor, drag the "loop end handle" in a place before the playback position and there is a stuck note.
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Old 04-17-2017, 09:18 AM   #29
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Changing midi takes during a note doesn't send a note off immediately and causes the note to play until loop end or stop.
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Old 05-06-2017, 07:20 AM   #30
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Win 7 64 with 8GB ram (Core 2 Duo), Reaper 64 5.xx, Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, but using 32 bit SampleTank and Sonik Synth II

What if nothing is changing while it plays?

I recorded a single note bass line on midi channel 1, an organ part on midi channel 2.

Nothing in the piano roll or the event list but note on and note off. No other controllers, not making changes, not editing, just hit play and listen.

Maybe 1 or 2 times out of 10 it might play all the way thru with no stuck notes. Most of the time, within a minute or less, I get a stuck note, no matter if I start from the beginning or from some other point. It's never the same note, it's never in the same place or at the same time, stopping or restarting play does not turn the note off. It happens on either channel, any channel that has notes to play. I have noticed that it's always just one note that sticks, it has never been more than one stuck note at the same time.

The most odd thing to me is that it also renders with stuck notes. Each time I render, the resulting wav file will have a different stuck note in it, it is not predictable.

Without closing the project, the only way I can shut the stuck note off is (1) reload the instrument on that midi channel; (2) change the note polyphony to 1 and then back to what it was; (3) hold the sustain pedal and play the stuck pitch repeatedly until I exceed the polyphony limit.

If I could afford to upgrade my synths to 64 bit I would, but I can't so I need some other fix. This is preventing me from rendering or mixing down to final stereo. I'm ready to quit. (I will never quit, but it sure feels that way) Only fix I can see at the moment is reverting everything back to 32 bit and 2GB ram.......rather not.
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:28 AM   #31
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Default Did anyone find a definite fix?

Hey i've been struggling with this problem, especially a lot recently and it's making Harmor basically unusable. Did anyone find a fix that doesn't involve reloading the plugin or the project? Typically this fix only temporarily helps for a few plays until it's needed to do again. (Really sorry if I somehow missed something in this thread!)

Thanks!
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:04 AM   #32
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If you're talking about the things I have posted, checking "automatically correct overlapping notes" helps with some of them. I've tried to get used to doing the editing offline which removes the problems. F3 also send note-offs to everything in the case something happens.

There is no definite fix until REAPER sends note-off messages at these situations.
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Old 07-11-2017, 01:14 PM   #33
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real "stuck notes" problem with Synthmaster One demo then crashed.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:40 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
REAPER can gracefully handle common situations such as playback stopping or looping while a note is playing (unless there is a bug), but unfortunately, I don't think it is possible for REAPER to prepare for every contingency.
I have seen this issue get exacerbated in the the last few versions of Reaper and in the pre-release.

There are a few instruments that seem to have more problems than others. For example Omnisphere, and East West Play seem to have the most problems. I've noticed some kontakt instruments have more problems than others but it's mostly omni and play that give me the most greef.

There real problem for me is that the action to send all midi notes off does not work on some instruments. If have to manually scroll to those instruments, disable and re-enable the instrument to get them to kill the notes. It's very cumbersome to work around this.

In Cubase, if you sent a midi note off message, you always kill all stuck notes. Which leads me to believe this more than just a note off problem.

I believe we are seeing a bug here. This same problem is happening on my two clone machines which are on Windows. I have also tested this on an Mac OSX machine with the same result.

I believe it was you who brought up that some of the stuck note issues could be attributed to input quantize. I really need to be able to use input quantize so I'm hoping we can find a solution soon.

Do you or anybody else on this forum have a magic preference or action work around for this problem?
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