Old 07-12-2017, 09:59 AM   #1
Highdynamix
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Default Reaper does alter the sound when Rendering.

lates Reaper Build but bug is since Version 5 and longer probably (i only had Version 5.)
Iīve always wondered, why my Mixes in Reaper does sound different.

I made an experiment.
uses a noise gen and saved a 44100HZ 16bit Noise. (best is Pink Noise, like it is in Music)
Opened it in Reaper, Rendered with 44,1khz and checkbox for Sampling with plugins in projectsamplerate (which was at 96khz in reaper cause i wanted the Plugins to work in 96khz but the data should be downsampled to 44,1 afterwards.)
Then saved it.
but the file was still in 96khz 32bit afterwards (that not the way it should be right ?)
And the signal was altered with Dithering / Noise Shape and HQ Resampling.
The signal had a difference from 2 to 20Khz (which probably explain why i always got loss of high signals! it worked like a lowpass...)

and it made a difference.
I deactivated the Resampling (i just set it to Point Sampling (lowest) and unchecked
the Sampling option for the plugins.
Now iīve got 44,1khz and 16bit, but still difference a high peak at 20Khz to 22,5khz at -8DB.

Then next one, no dith & Noise shape, no samplerate change no resampling (lowest)
And Boom exact signal, no altering at all.


Workflow :
1.Generate noise.
2.Render it in Reaper.
3.use Audacity and open both tracks (origin, and reaper track)
4.Invert one of the tracks so it has 180°phase difference.
5. Mix both together.
6: Result should be no signal, 2 180° signals together = Silence.

Image : https://i.imgur.com/ISXMXKM.png

Results in Frequency analysis :
http://imgur.com/a/Qydp7
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Old 07-12-2017, 02:36 PM   #2
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Of course resampling can influence things, that's perfectly normal. Not a bug, really.
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Old 07-12-2017, 03:22 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Of course resampling can influence things, that's perfectly normal. Not a bug, really.
And Resampling shouldnt alter the signal either, if you not downsample it over the old Samplingrate. Its a question of Precisement. its not Bit changement.
The Samples are just the precision points, and needed for precise holding the data over time. if you put on more than needed, you can hold more, but if you shrunk it back to original it shouldnt make a difference anyway. But its known, some programs work very good with the Transitioning filters Nyquist Shannon.
so its a questionable bug ofc.
But if a transition filter is not correctly programmed as intened, it means Phase & Time shift which is in Audio sometimes really bad. i do not want my DAW to destroy my recordings if its possible to get rid of it. Audition CS 5 & Higher had a way to do it correctly, a company named Inifite Wave tested a few filters on the standards.

Source : http://src.infinitewave.ca/
looks to the most as Esotheric Bullshit i guess, but its Math.

but Noise Shape and Dither shouldnt destroy the signal or costs the high end of the frequency range.
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Old 07-12-2017, 03:31 PM   #4
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Sure they are destructive operations, to an extent. You cannot expect noise shaping or dithering NOT to influence the singal in any way. Well at least you can disable them and use a different dither plugin if you really need it (and I'm going to argue that in a dense mix it's really not necessary).

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Originally Posted by Highdynamix View Post
And Resampling shouldnt alter the signal either, if you not downsample it over the old Samplingrate. Its a question of Precisement. its not Bit changement.
And you're wrong there. Both things you said change when resampling - the matter is to what extent, and this depends on the resampling algorithm that is used. Reaper uses sinc interpolation for higher quality modes. Sure there are better SRCs out there, and you're free to use them (I use SoX, myself, as it's free and great). It's not a bug - it's how the algorithm is. Use something else externally if you're not satisfied.

Yeah, we all know the infinitewave website. Note that Reaper's artifacts are at -150 dBFS or thereabouts. So, while SoX is more perfect, Reaper's is not bad at all. Also, Reaper's SRC doesn't mess with the phase at all, at the Extreme setting.


I still use SoX externally for critically important material, instead of Reaper's SRC, though. In any case, it is not a bug.

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Old 07-13-2017, 09:19 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Sure they are destructive operations, to an extent. You cannot expect noise shaping or dithering NOT to influence the singal in any way. Well at least you can disable them and use a different dither plugin if you really need it (and I'm going to argue that in a dense mix it's really not necessary).



And you're wrong there. Both things you said change when resampling - the matter is to what extent, and this depends on the resampling algorithm that is used. Reaper uses sinc interpolation for higher quality modes. Sure there are better SRCs out there, and you're free to use them (I use SoX, myself, as it's free and great). It's not a bug - it's how the algorithm is. Use something else externally if you're not satisfied.

Yeah, we all know the infinitewave website. Note that Reaper's artifacts are at -150 dBFS or thereabouts. So, while SoX is more perfect, Reaper's is not bad at all. Also, Reaper's SRC doesn't mess with the phase at all, at the Extreme setting.


I still use SoX externally for critically important material, instead of Reaper's SRC, though. In any case, it is not a bug.


if its not a Bug, then its just ashame how much Quality loss i got when mix for Bands etc. i lost a ton of quality everytime i rendered, it sounded like Lowpass @ 12Khz 12DB. (sounded so, not measured, was only small differences, and microtonal influences)
then i just let the Resample be at OFF or in Reapers Case (lowest setting) that do the trick. Then it was my Fault, and a User Error.
But still it has to resampled be resampled if recorded or worked in 96khz. so yeah, i have to find another program to do that.
Thank you anyway
best regards.


PS: i Revoke my last Post, its definetely an Error of the Program too i got Ringing Artifacts when setting Lowest Resampling mode(Render or Playback both ring), what the Hell ?
can somebody just Explain what happens ? i am to stupid to understand what happens here. I provide the snippet of it original and without resample. if not resampled its ringing (voice sample)
Cause i dont want resampling at all. not even when mixing. i need the true signal. If i open the origin File in audacity there is no ringing whatsoever. even with different Sound mode or Soundcard.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Sample.zip (392.4 KB, 12 views)
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:49 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highdynamix View Post
PS: i Revoke my last Post, its definetely an Error of the Program too i got Ringing Artifacts when setting Lowest Resampling mode(Render or Playback both ring), what the Hell ?
there is no low pass filter in the lowest quality resample mode, so you are not hearing any ringing.
but...having no filter allows for aliasing, so that's most likely what you hear.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:49 AM   #7
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If you don't want resampling at all, then make sure all your media in the project is at the same sample rate, and your project sample rate is matching the media sample rate. If your media is at 44.1k and your project is at 96k, resampling WILL happen no matter what. So, if you're intent on working your projects at 96k, make sure ALL the media you import is at 96k as well. If it's not, convert it externally via SoX, and then import it to Reaper.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
If you don't want resampling at all, then make sure all your media in the project is at the same sample rate, and your project sample rate is matching the media sample rate. If your media is at 44.1k and your project is at 96k, resampling WILL happen no matter what. So, if you're intent on working your projects at 96k, make sure ALL the media you import is at 96k as well. If it's not, convert it externally via SoX, and then import it to Reaper.
Both files were 44,1Khz. even recorded in 44,1khz.
In playback and render it got aliased and ringing in Reaper. i attached the zip file to te last post of mine.
Trough Dither and Noise shaping.... it shouldnīt be there then.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:00 AM   #9
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You should also probably post the RPP file so we can check out your settings.

If your project sample rate is at 96k, while you're mixing you WILL get resampling if media was at 44.1k, is what I'm saying.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:40 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
You should also probably post the RPP file so we can check out your settings.

If your project sample rate is at 96k, while you're mixing you WILL get resampling if media was at 44.1k, is what I'm saying.
I did changed that to 44,1Khz back as a test a moment after i wrote my last post.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:51 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
You should also probably post the RPP file so we can check out your settings.

If your project sample rate is at 96k, while you're mixing you WILL get resampling if media was at 44.1k, is what I'm saying.
The whole settings ?
even when i changed the samplerate to 44,1khz also the soundcard to 44,1khz it rings. thats not correct. it shouldnīt ring. it sounded like sampling artifacts on both of my soundcards.
i know this kind of behavior only when a program does resample. But it shouldnt.
I switched to WASAPI and changed all my samplerates to 44,1khz and i got an interesting bug, the Master got instantly muted and showed me massive clip ...
but thats a different thing cause its happened with the RBJ Highpass when in Master Channel at 44,1Khz (found the bug)
but still ringing. how can i fix it ?
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:00 AM   #12
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I don't get any such ringing over here if my media matches the project/soundcard sample rate, so you're probably doing something wrong. Hence, post RPP.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I don't get any such ringing over here if my media matches the project/soundcard sample rate, so you're probably doing something wrong. Hence, post RPP.

the Settings or the Projectfile without data ?
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:06 PM   #14
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Project file without data if he is asking for the RPP
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:00 PM   #15
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Well, data would also help...
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