Old 02-10-2015, 04:43 PM   #1
BenK-msx
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Default a thread about pitch/rate envelope solutions in v5

many users desire a per item non-destructive pitch envelope that smoothly adjusts both pitch & rate <<.

otherwise know as varispeed pitch-bend tape-stop etc etc.

in V5 we have the addition of per item fx envelopes, but no pitch/rate. so we repeat the request and in the mean time bodge away our own solutions:

using v5's per item envelopes, my previous preferred solution in v4 using reasamplomatic pitch envelope can be neatened up to the point of sexy..



speedy huh. neat too. move it around (its attached as a new take), re-adjust, render fx to new take.. world is your oyster.

-

i include a track template, and one macro in a keymap for anyone curious.

you will need sws s&m extension:

**note**: the track template never gets inserted into projects to mess with your stuff, just the little item within it.

setup:
----------------------------

put template where reaper templates live.

import the keymap via actions menu - its called 'pitch inserter loop fix' - no key is assigned to it yet.

-- bring up the sws extension 'resources' window. <<

select 'track template' from drop down box

then hit the *2nd button to import/populate templates into the slots.

Locate the 'pitch rate adjust my item' template in the newly populated list and (for now at least) drag and move it to **slot 2** as the macro expects it to be in slot 2.

you can change that later within the macro if you need to.


assign a key/controller to the 'pitch inserter loop fix' macro action now in the actions list - shift P was free here.


done!


------------------------------


now - when you have an item you want to adjust/tapestop/varispeed:

1: select the item, hit the macro key and:

a new take appears under the original item with a take envelope showing and a reasamplomatic item fx appears.
the item is zoomed-in to aid drawing envelopes and the original item take (presuming there were no takes to start with) is now also selected so that you can just:

2: >> hit 'import from arrange' in reasamplomatic.

close the item fx if you like and then draw in your pitch/rate adjustments into the new take envelope. (take has to be active to draw the envelope so no need to tell you to reactivate the take..)

alternatively learn the pitch adjust in the sampler to a midi control etc.


i make that 1 more click than native, 2 more if you click to close the item fx.

p.s

- btw the new take is just a midi item that contains sampler as item fx and has a midi note at the start of it. thats it.
Macro inserts the item onto same track as original item, adjusts it to same length , then implodes it new take of original. Then shows the item fx.

- you can also alt-shift-T to show only the envelope, but i think having the original is a good reference at least until user renders item fx.


ATTACHMENTS via reaper stash: **YOU NEED BOTH**

https://stash.reaper.fm/23213/pitch-r...X.ReaperKeyMap
https://stash.reaper.fm/23210/pitch-r...RTrackTemplate

n.b ensure template is in sws s&m resources template slot 2 and 'offset by edit cursor' is ticked.

Last edited by BenK-msx; 08-31-2015 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 02-10-2015, 11:06 PM   #2
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I would recommend just using my pitch bending extension plugin. Unfortunately it isn't available for OS-X (and probably Windows XP), so I won't recommend it generally. It is IMHO however the easiest and fastest way to achieve the varispeeded processing on individual media items, even though it's not real time and the preview can't be listened and adjusted in the context of the full mix. (There's a tiny chance the OS-X build of the plugin will appear some day...)
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Old 02-11-2015, 02:03 AM   #3
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Nice hack benk!

I can recommend xenakios pitch bend, it's very powerful!

Rate based pitch bend on items is the last big sound design frontier that I'm hoping the devs can give us in 5.

I don't care if the waveform doesn't update. It would be so useful to have it!
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Old 02-11-2015, 02:49 AM   #4
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I don't really understand why showing the temporal variations in the waveform visually would be a big hurdle technically.
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Old 02-11-2015, 03:01 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
I would recommend just using my pitch bending extension plugin. Unfortunately it isn't available for OS-X (and probably Windows XP), so I won't recommend it generally. It is IMHO however the easiest and fastest way to achieve the varispeeded processing on individual media items, even though it's not real time and the preview can't be listened and adjusted in the context of the full mix. (There's a tiny chance the OS-X build of the plugin will appear some day...)


Is the pitch plugin available for Reaper 64bit?
Where can I find your enhancements please? I have installed the SWS stuff and I can see a lot of Xenakios actions, but no bend.

Many thanks
Thal
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Old 02-11-2015, 06:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
I would recommend just using my pitch bending extension plugin. Unfortunately it isn't available for OS-X (and probably Windows XP), so I won't recommend it generally. It is IMHO however the easiest and fastest way to achieve the varispeeded processing on individual media items, even though it's not real time and the preview can't be listened and adjusted in the context of the full mix. (There's a tiny chance the OS-X build of the plugin will appear some day...)
Thanks for the .. 'recommendation'.. Easiest and fastest except x, except y and win only (and you might have install issues..) !

The above method is very fast and easy, is realtime, listenable in context and works for all ( with sws s&m ) and functions how I want an item pitch rate envelope to work.

Hitting 'import from arrange' is the only additional step.

I understand the desire to plug your plugin but give me some slack jack, just sharing a method I like and prefer.

Such pitch adjustments absolutely need to be in context for timing and Need to be tweakable.. Else I'm not interested. now this is item based its much closer to what a native solution would be like.

To visualise any tweaks a quick 'render item fx to new take' shows exactly what is going on and can be undone/deleted or kept as a take.

To any forum jockeys: Please keep any 'ugh its just a workaround' gripes in your gizzard as A: I know. B: don't care!

Last edited by BenK-msx; 02-11-2015 at 01:22 PM. Reason: diff giff
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:01 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
give me some slack jack, just sharing a method I like and prefer.
Well, your method is something I probably personally wouldn't bother try using, to me it seems like a lot of hassle to use. But let's agree neither your solution nor my plugin are perfect? (My plugin was intended to replicate the workflow that was available to me in ProTools and Cubase back in the Dark Ages. You would select a media item, pop up an offline processing plugin and render. If it didn't work right in the context of a mix, retry until satisfied...That to me was better than nothing. I am not arguing proper realtime adjustable item based envelopes for the varispeeding is not the right the way to go...)
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:28 AM   #8
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Let's just all agree that both methods have their merits but all of us would kill for rate based envelopes on items!
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Old 02-11-2015, 09:33 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
Well, your method is something I probably personally wouldn't bother try using, to me it seems like a lot of hassle to use. But let's agree neither your solution nor my plugin are perfect? (My plugin was intended to replicate the workflow that was available to me in ProTools and Cubase back in the Dark Ages. You would select a media item, pop up an offline processing plugin and render. If it didn't work right in the context of a mix, retry until satisfied...That to me was better than nothing. I am not arguing proper realtime adjustable item based envelopes for the varispeeding is not the right the way to go...)
For the first reply to be 'I recommend my plugin its easier and faster' despite it not being easier or faster, and with no reference to the OP is a bad form IMO.

to say its a lot of hassle is factually incorrect/bizarre.

See the gif. That's it. I am drawing a realtime non destructive smooth, item locked pitch rate envelope in seconds.

The one time setup is no doubt as much or a less hassle than installing your plugin.

I was tempted to try your plug it but I read a whole load of installation issues and the fact that it is offline is just not what I required. Thats ok though.
I didn't post on the thread that I thought it was a clunky hassle though did i?

I come from tracker origins where pitch/rate relationship was basically how the whole thing worked as am sure you know, but key is adjusting it in a musical way which means timing.


End result is I am happy I have this option - you are happy too. Lovely.
but why not just be quiet about this, or try it then list the flaws/drawbacks?

@mbn that is self evident! If devs added it tomorrow i'd not weep for my half an hr of macro tweaking.

Edit: better .gif in OP now

Last edited by BenK-msx; 02-11-2015 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:06 PM   #10
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sexy!

definitely the kinda thing id like to have as a per item envelope solution within Reaper. Nice work!
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Old 02-13-2015, 08:15 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
Nice hack benk!

I can recommend xenakios pitch bend, it's very powerful!

Rate based pitch bend on items is the last big sound design frontier that I'm hoping the devs can give us in 5.

I don't care if the waveform doesn't update. It would be so useful to have it!

Where can I grab the Xenakios bend addon please?


Cheers
Thal
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Old 02-13-2015, 09:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thalamus View Post
Where can I grab the Xenakios bend addon please?


Cheers
Thal
Here

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=138758
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:00 AM   #13
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@BenK-msk
Thank you fo sharing this varispeed solution ! It seems quite powerful when set up !
Does it work with negative playrate (such as with scratch vinyl vst emulation) ?
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:14 AM   #14
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Cheers, well I like it, hence sharing.

Negative playrate not doable using reasamplomatic as the plug, it just goes to very low playrate/pitch. I doubt a reaper native playrate envelope would go negative either tbh, but might..

you could have one pitch/rate envelope on a reversed copy of the take and one on a normal take and blend between the two, but thats is clearly a bit fiddly.

A dedicated scratch plugin would be required or something quirky like recording the output of scrubbing over the item.

Never thought of even wanting a -ve rate but is interesting!
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Old 02-13-2015, 12:03 PM   #15
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If we got a pitch&rate take envelope that could go negative that would be a dream come true! It would be like having FL's Wave Traveller right on the timeline!
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:33 PM   #16
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Playrate envelope with negative playrate abilities are heavily used in video softwares for time remapping of videos.

That's why it could be interested to have that kind of functionnalities in an audio software

Meanwhile, if you want negative... Scratch it And for positive only, you already post a better solution :P

(if there is a already feature request for playrate/pitch envelope positive and negative... I'M IN !)
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Old 02-14-2015, 03:57 PM   #17
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Just curious if any of the nice folk who have this on their HD now have had any fun with it?

-

Btw If user wants a limited range pitch/rate envelope instead of this high range -80 to 80 : you can put a reacontrolmidi before the sampler and use the pitch wheel fader for the envelope, adjusting pitch bend range in sampler to limit range. Save as a diff template, put in slot 3 for example, edit a copy of macro accordingly and that would work just as seamlessly.

If there is a desire for that from anyone I can post up a version set accordingly q easily.

However that method's maximum is only +-12 which wasn't really enough for the type of pitching I am Interested in so didn't mention it, but may be more versatile for some.
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Old 02-15-2015, 01:27 PM   #18
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Its an ingenious solution, I am having a lot of fun with it.
I'm a game audio sound designer by trade so having this range of bendage inside reaper is really excellent.

Thank you very much!
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Old 02-15-2015, 03:51 PM   #19
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Ben,

Saw your post and got some hope that I'm just blubbering in the wilderness and like you said, everything is seamless using the mod wheel pitch shift function. By the landslide response I've gotten over the years, the bug may not exist outside of something I've fukd up, either in my head or on my local system.

Can you or others hopefully prove me dead wrong by testing this.

Load a synth downstream from ReaControlMidi.

Adjust the pitch shift to anything outside 440.

Engage metronome for record with a 2 measure count in, record and see if the pitch shift is preserved upon playback.

In the current 5 beta, also hopefully negate my claim that simply resetting the curser to the beginning of a track also negates any pitch shift data.

Then I can move on. Reaper is okay. Problem is with me.

Thanks,
John
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Old 02-23-2015, 04:43 PM   #20
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don't now about the above jkennedy sorry, if theres a bug, can only recommend the usual process of report, post, pester..


-
just a heads up - the reaper stash tells me a small number of souls have grabbed the template file only - not the template PLUS macro keymap.

you need both for things to work as in the OP gif!


also sws resources tick offset by edit cursor.
a pre5 update/sws upate may have reset that here.
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Old 02-24-2015, 10:59 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Kennedy View Post
Ben,

Saw your post and got some hope that I'm just blubbering in the wilderness and like you said, everything is seamless using the mod wheel pitch shift function. By the landslide response I've gotten over the years, the bug may not exist outside of something I've fukd up, either in my head or on my local system.

Can you or others hopefully prove me dead wrong by testing this.

Load a synth downstream from ReaControlMidi.

Adjust the pitch shift to anything outside 440.

Engage metronome for record with a 2 measure count in, record and see if the pitch shift is preserved upon playback.

In the current 5 beta, also hopefully negate my claim that simply resetting the curser to the beginning of a track also negates any pitch shift data.

Then I can move on. Reaper is okay. Problem is with me.

Thanks,
John
It seems that when you start transport exactly at the beginning or in the middle of a midi clip, Reaper force-springs the imaginary pitch wheel (regardless of if theres a synth on there or not) back to 0. So for a workaround - begin transport BEFORE the exact midi clip thats being shifted. Obviously this is not good if your desired pitch shift is at the beginning of the project but you can do it by zooming in and modifying the clip's edge...

Pitch Shift always wants to begin at 0, I dont know why it tries so hard but it does. (maybe the old "its not a bug its a feature"). The other CC params arent affected like this. So if you want to use ReaControlMidi , the envelope has to begin at 0, then fluctuate to the desired position so it can move the spring off of 0 and needs to be a different value to send any CC data. Then it will activate the right pitch shift.
Also make sure you turn off "Touch/write/latch" or every-time you move the edit cursor, it will insert a dot at 0 in your pitch-shift envelope. This also goes for stopping recording with touch/write/latch on (but if you turn it off before you stop recording, it can't do it...)

This is beginning to seem like a real issue.

Last edited by genBTC; 02-24-2015 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 03-12-2015, 12:13 AM   #22
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Thanks for this! I'm on a Mac and this appears my only option.

+1 for a varispeed envelope. We've talked about this before. ☺ The need is clear.
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Old 03-12-2015, 01:21 AM   #23
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I'll post again as well then as I would really use the hell out of it!

I know rate change with an envelope might be hard to do "cleanly" with the visuals so what about adding a "slew" (rate of change) parameter to stretch markers when you have the "preserve rate.." box unpicked in item properties?

That already gives us a way to change the rate of an audio item but it's instant. If we could slow the rate of change down in item properties it would be better than nothing.
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Old 03-12-2015, 09:57 AM   #24
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+1 for a per-take varispeed envelope. FL Studio's Wave Traveller was great, but I too am on a Mac now. Having that as part of a take would be pure genius .
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Old 03-12-2015, 06:54 PM   #25
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genBTC,

Saw late that you offered me advice, and thank you for your time to repond.

Was in retrospect too tunnel visioned continually requesting a bug fix only important to a very few users. Pure numbers. To get no latency, no artifact pitch bend, you got to load some app. ReaControlMidi is busted, but the JS plugin that gets around the bug works solid. Got to just keep my trigger finger off ReaControlMidi. Reference for anyone needing the workaround, and big appreciation to the developer who bailed us out:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=25368

Best,
John
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:26 AM   #26
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I use Reaper for game sound design, and use the rate change constantly. Having rate envelopes which update the waveform would be incredibly useful
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Old 02-14-2016, 09:18 AM   #27
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I'm trying to add the track template to the resources, but I get this error message when I try to load it: "The file extension "..RTrackTemplate" is not supported in the bookmark "track template""
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:41 PM   #28
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Has there been a recent FR for this? I'd love a rate (simutaneous pitch/time) item envelope with realtime waveform changes.
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:39 PM   #29
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We have a stretch marker mode with little handles that allow you to do linear changes between markers and that's ok but not great.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
We have a stretch marker mode with little handles that allow you to do linear changes between markers and that's ok but not great.
That's true, so in theory, stretch markers just need repackaging with a curve and we've got rate envelopes.

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Old Yesterday, 08:42 PM   #31
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nice one was after something like this the other day,will try it out later today
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