Old 12-22-2016, 06:09 AM   #1
pcartwright
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Default Articulation Mapper pre-release thread

Here's a thread to post ideas and bugs about the articulation mapper.

Per schwa:

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Anything is possible for the future, but the intent right now is more proof of concept and looking for use cases that affect the overall design.
Here are some of ideas to get started:

Option to change note channels and/or bus per articulation

Track rules should be chased; note rules, obviously, should not

Ability to add/subtract velocity and CC values

Add support for crescendo/decrescendo continuous MIDI changes (i.e. CC or velocity ramps)

Map keys (this could be the solution for a drum mapper feature)
Related - maybe some randomization (map one note to one of many). I can provide an example if needed, but this would be good for certain drum libraries to create round-robin style playing.

Special handling for the starts and ends of phrases (some VSTi start their phrase technique mid note and not at the beginning of the phrase - e.g. Garritan products, some EWQL scripting, etc.)

Some of these feature may already exist. I'm still trying to get a handle on writing articulation files to help test.
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Old 12-22-2016, 06:28 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcartwright View Post
Option to change note channels and/or bus per articulation
Doable, but I'd like some more feedback on how general this is, that instruments represent different expressions via different MIDI channels. And this seems lower in priority than keyswitches or VST3 expression, because it's not triggering events that can't be created in other ways -- it's as easy to set note channels in the MIDI editor as it is to add notation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcartwright View Post
Track rules should be chased; note rules, obviously, should not
This should already be the case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pcartwright View Post
Ability to add/subtract velocity and CC values

Add support for crescendo/decrescendo continuous MIDI changes (i.e. CC or velocity ramps)
Reasonable, planned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcartwright View Post
Map keys (this could be the solution for a drum mapper feature)
Related - maybe some randomization (map one note to one of many). I can provide an example if needed, but this would be good for certain drum libraries to create round-robin style playing.
Doable but as with the note channel suggestion, probably lower priority as it can already be accomplished in other ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcartwright View Post
Special handling for the starts and ends of phrases (some VSTi start their phrase technique mid note and not at the beginning of the phrase - e.g. Garritan products, some EWQL scripting, etc.)
Good suggestion!
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Old 12-22-2016, 07:34 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Doable, but I'd like some more feedback on how general this is, that instruments represent different expressions via different MIDI channels. And this seems lower in priority than keyswitches or VST3 expression, because it's not triggering events that can't be created in other ways -- it's as easy to set note channels in the MIDI editor as it is to add notation.

Doable but as with the note channel suggestion, probably lower priority as it can already be accomplished in other ways.
Fair enough. How would one randomize notes currently? I know of JSFX that can reroute notes, but I'm not familiar with a means to generate random notes.

********************

Another suggestion:
Differentiate trills into half and whole step (maybe minor and major thirds, but that's rare). Ideally a trill mark in conjunction with a key snap should work, but I think you might need new markings unique to whole step and half step trills as well. It's pretty common for orchestral libraries to have trill patches (section strings in particular).
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Old 12-22-2016, 08:00 AM   #4
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Yep, definitely need more trill options. m3 and M3 trills also exist in some libraries so they shouldn't be omitted from the spec.
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:22 AM   #5
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Here's some things I would like to see implemented:

1. Changing articulation by keyswitch
2. Sending velocity information with said keyswitch (I have several sample libraries that have velocity sensitive KS now)
3. Sending CC value alone or along with KS
4. Sending to different MIDI channels (I know this can be done in the ME already, but I feel that being able to modify all the midi data from one channel to be more intuitive to me, because then I won't have to switch channel every time I want to edit a particular part/note.)
5. The ability to combine all of those, and send multiple CC, KS, and MIDI channel info at once
6. A system that is not playback dependent, but that would be able to be live recordable as well
7. Articulation rules being connected to individual notes rather than the entire channel.

I think for me #5 would knock it out of the park. Especially if you can send keyswitches with CCs to two different midi channels at once. It would be useful for me in that then I could combine articulations to create my own. e.g. I have sustain on CH1 and staccato on CH2, for a particular rule I could activate both CH1+2 to create a sustain w/ a staccato accent. e.g. 2: If there are keyswitches built into a patch, I could still layer articulations by loading two of those patches on different channels, so I could send "Sustain KS" to channel 1, and "Staccato KS" to channel 2 to create that same sustain w/ staccato accent.

For #6, I think it would make my workflow easier to be able to activate the particular articulations/rules I create before and while I record rather than recording a take, then having to go through the take to change the articulations to what I wanted. This would make it appeal to both the "live playing" crowd as well as the "draw the midi in" crowd.

#7 is perhaps pie in the sky, but if there are two notes played as a chord on the same channel, it would be cool to trigger two different articulations at the same time, so I could mark C5 as staccato, for example, and E5 as sustain.

I don't think I'm very good at explaining what I mean accurately, so if there's anything I've said that sounds like gibberish, I can try again to explain. Either way, I'm excited about whatever system is implemented.

Thanks,

P.S. I think TransMIDIfier is a great example of how to create a flexible articulation management system. It not only allows you to activate the different articulations, but also creatively combine them. http://www.bewaryprods.com/software/...TransMIDIfier/
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:38 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyoder View Post
1. Changing articulation by keyswitch
2. Sending velocity information with said keyswitch (I have several sample libraries that have velocity sensitive KS now)
3. Sending CC value alone or along with KS
4. Sending to different MIDI channels (I know this can be done in the ME already, but I feel that being able to modify all the midi data from one channel to be more intuitive to me, because then I won't have to switch channel every time I want to edit a particular part/note.)
5. The ability to combine all of those, and send multiple CC, KS, and MIDI channel info at once
6. A system that is not playback dependent, but that would be able to be live recordable as well
7. Articulation rules being connected to individual notes rather than the entire channel.
I think all but #6 are already done in 5.31pre1. 7 is done but only works for vst3 expression (this is pretty much why vst3 expression was created).
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:02 AM   #7
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#7 should also be possible if the articulation trigger event is sent directly before a note (even if they have the same MIDI position). Example: CC#0 value 14 is staccato, CC#0 value 2 is tenuto, we play a C3 (tenuto) and G3 (staccato), MIDI stream should be:

CC#0 2
C3
CC#0 14
G3

Is VST3 Expression really necessary to make that work? Because AFAIK (anyone feel free to correct me, this info came to me from Breeder, he's on Cubase 8 now), even Cubase has issues with triggering different articulations for notes within a chord (all notes having the same position). And above thing I can verify works with Kontakt, which is still VST2.4 and doesn't support VST Expression
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
#7 should also be possible if the articulation trigger event is sent directly before a note (even if they have the same MIDI position). Example: CC#0 value 14 is staccato, CC#0 value 2 is tenuto, we play a C3 (tenuto) and G3 (staccato), MIDI stream should be:

CC#0 2
C3
CC#0 14
G3
Oh, I wasn't thinking it was that simple. Yes, this is something we can support easily.

Is it the case that instruments typically support this, though? It would have to be intentionally planned for when designing the instrument.
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I think all but #6 are already done in 5.31pre1. 7 is done but only works for vst3 expression (this is pretty much why vst3 expression was created).
Legendary. I know #7 is not a deal-breaker at all for me, but I know (although not natively integrated) that Peter Schwartz scripted something like that for Logic. (https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/v...c.php?t=125203) Seemed like it would be a cool feature, so I did want to throw in the suggestion while we're still on ground floor.

EDIT: @schwa, possibly in the above case it would be necessary to send the second note event to a different channel. In that case an instrument that doesn't support a case like that could be rigged to work nonetheless (to borrow ED's example: CC#0 value 14 channel 1 is staccato , CC#0 value 2 channel 2 is tenuto)

Best,
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:16 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Oh, I wasn't thinking it was that simple. Yes, this is something we can support easily.

Is it the case that instruments typically support this, though? It would have to be intentionally planned for when designing the instrument.
Sure, it'd have to be supported by the instrument, but those that have flexible articulation switching schemes (which is majority of Kontakt libraries, Vienna VSL, etc.) should work fine with this.


EDIT: Actually, could you extend this to Event List view? Currently if MIDI events have the same position, all CCs get listed before notes. It would be great to have actions to move event order up or down (if position is the same)!

Last edited by EvilDragon; 12-22-2016 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:38 AM   #11
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It's true that channel-based articulation is probably less common than keyswitches, but in my opinion it's really a superior method for working with libraries. It's much easier to have a visual overview (multi channel editing especially), two artics can be layered very easily as Cyoder mentioned, and artic rules are attached to individual notes by default.

However, I have seen some utilities for converting keyswitches to midi channel, so it looks like it should be pretty simple to make do.
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Old 12-22-2016, 11:02 AM   #12
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In professional orchestral music it is really common channel-based articulation.
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Old 12-22-2016, 11:26 AM   #13
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Would it make sense to be able to map articulations based on note length? Some libraries offer generic "short" notes (not really staccato- just short). The idea is to more accurately imitate quickly moving phrases instead of using staccato or marcato patches (which tend to be accented).

On the flip side, would it make sense to shorten the playback length of staccato or marcato notes via the articulation mapper? My first thought is that this belongs in the MIDI editor or JSFX, but I thought I'd throw it out there for comments.
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:02 PM   #14
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Yeah something like that definitely belongs in MIDI editor as an action ("Shorten all notes recognized as short articulations")?
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yeah something like that definitely belongs in MIDI editor as an action ("Shorten all notes recognized as short articulations")?
That's what I figured. What are your thoughts about mapping notes based on length (the first idea in my above post)?
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:29 PM   #16
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I think it's one of rarer usecases, as far as I'm concerned, shouldn't be a priority.
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:39 PM   #17
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Any pics of it around? I never purchased Reaper 5 (my license didn't cover it and I didn't really need it) and I often feel like a leech if I use the pre's too much.

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Old 12-22-2016, 12:48 PM   #18
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Not much to see really. There's a new button in the FX window labeled "Artic" which allows users to select a map file (the text file specifies the actual mapping).

Schwa posted a sample articulation map file here if you want to see it: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...29&postcount=7
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Old 12-22-2016, 01:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commala View Post
It's true that channel-based articulation is probably less common than keyswitches, but in my opinion it's really a superior method for working with libraries. It's much easier to have a visual overview (multi channel editing especially), two artics can be layered very easily as Cyoder mentioned, and artic rules are attached to individual notes by default.

However, I have seen some utilities for converting keyswitches to midi channel, so it looks like it should be pretty simple to make do.
It just occurred to me that a utility to convert keyswitches to channel changes won't work with the articulation mapper in its current format because there is no FX space between the mapper and the VSTi. We either need channel changes added to the trigger type or change the articulation mapper to an FX plugin for channels to be assigned based on notation.

@schwa, users could indeed change channels directly in the MIDI editor, but the articulation mapper with channel change trigger type offers a "what you see is what you get" approach. See a staccato? Know that your staccato patch on channel 3 will fire.
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Old 12-22-2016, 06:22 PM   #20
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Hi,

Thanks for this feature. It is going to possibly help immensely. Thought, I don't understand everything that's been mentioned here, and I don't install pre's, but what I'd like to ask, is for it to be simple to work with, so easy to program articulation banks and so i can change articulations on midi tracks with two clicks max ( which is a golden rule of design guys, sincerely).
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Old 12-22-2016, 06:56 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krahosk View Post
Some say the ARTIC button is in the VSTi header, some in the FX window... still cannot find it. Any help, please?
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Old 12-22-2016, 08:12 PM   #22
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In Reaper has a note name map, may will do it as a basis for an articulation map(or import it).
And most importantly - compatibility a different tracks. Notes with legato on track01 would remained the same on track02(if of course track02 has a legato articulation).
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:50 AM   #23
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Doable, but I'd like some more feedback on how general this is, that instruments represent different expressions via different MIDI channels.
Very! It's the only method for libraries like Hollywood Brass and Hollywood Strings. And there are certainly cases where people build templates with Kontakt that way as well. I would consider it an essential part of any articulation system, even if CC/keyswitch is the preferred method for most use cases.
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:08 AM   #24
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Just an idea, but perhaps the articulation mapper should be part of ReaControlMIDI instead of the VSTi menu. Users would need to add ReaControlMIDI in front of the desired VSTi to use.

This would have a couple of benefits:

1. Users could see the articulation effect in the MIDI log which would help troubleshoot issues

2. Users could further manipulate the MIDI from the rules
a. add humanization to dynamic changes via parameter modulation or JSFX
b. workaround lack of channel support using
c. probably any number of creative applications that I can't think of right now

The only drawback I could think of is a reduction in simplicity which could increase user error.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:08 AM   #25
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in sample.ReaperArticMap file, this example is given

Code:
track dynamics mf : cc 0 7 64
However it doesn't work because it seems it's not dynamics but dynamic the correct keyword
I made some tests and nothing happens with dynamics. It works with dynamic

Plus, it's written

Code:
# track entry format:
# track notation_type notation_value : trigger_type trigger_channel trigger_parameter trigger_value
#
...
#
# track articulation_type can be:
# dynamics text
If we want to be rigourous, we should write

Code:
# track notation_type can be:
# dynamics text
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:19 AM   #26
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Another thing I noticed, don't use tab character to separate fields otherwise the line will not be effective. just use space character to align fields

edit: seems not working too if too many spaces are used to separate each field of a line

Last edited by stephane; 12-23-2016 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 12-23-2016, 10:26 AM   #27
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I made some tests with my spitfire libraries by using the UACC. It's not too bad and it works well. Looks very promising.

For those who would want to test, this is the definition of my articulation map file

Code:
track dynamic pppp : cc 0 1 30
track dynamic ppp : cc 0 1 40
track dynamic pp : cc 0 1 50
track dynamic p : cc 0 1 60
track dynamic mp : cc 0 1 70
track dynamic m	: cc 0 1 75
track dynamic mf : cc 0 1 80
track dynamic f : cc 0 1 90
track dynamic ff : cc 0 1 100
track dynamic fff : cc 0 1 110
track dynamic ffff : cc 0 1 120

note text arco : cc 32 1
note text legato : cc 32 20
note text pizz : cc 32 56

note articulation staccato : cc 32 40
note articulation staccatissimo : cc 32 42
note articulation marcato : cc 32 52
note articulation tenuto : cc 32 50

note ornament tremolo : cc 32  11

note text "con sord" : cc 32 7
note text "con legno" : cc 32 58

note text "senza vib" : cc 21 0
note text "con vib" : cc 21 64
note text "con molto vib" : cc 21 127
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:53 AM   #28
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Channel selection is currently set to 0 - 15. I think it would make more sense to the layperson to label channel selection from 1 - 16 and designate channel "0" for all channels.
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Old 12-23-2016, 12:03 PM   #29
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That's additional math that doesn't need to be done on the program side of things. Might as well number CCs starting at 1 and note numbers too, then
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Old 12-23-2016, 12:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That's additional math that doesn't need to be done on the program side of things. Might as well number CCs starting at 1 and note numbers too, then
Well, yes, but VSTi user guides tend to label channels 1 - 16 even though they label middle C as note number 60, etc. I'm thinking of someone not familiar with MIDI protocol trying to set up their own articulation maps.

A built in editor for the articulation maps would make this irrelevant.

Last edited by pcartwright; 12-23-2016 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 12-23-2016, 12:24 PM   #31
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I'm not sure if this is a bug or intended behavior.

I set up a simple bit of notation as follows:



List view:



Here's the loaded articulation:

Code:
track text Normale : keyswitch 0 36 127
track text pizz : keyswitch 0 41 127
note ornament tremolo : keyswitch 43 127
track text Mute : cc 0 1 60
track text "With Mute" : cc 0 1 0
Result:

The first two notes are played back Normale (arco in this case)
The Pizz keyswitch occurs after the 2nd note and is never heard
The third and fourth note are both tremolo even though the tremolo only exists on the third note

When I bounced the FX to a new MIDI file:



What I expected to happen:

The first note is played Normale (arco)
The second note is played pizzicato
The third note is played tremolo
The last note is played pizzicato

So the issues are:

1. The pizzicato keyswitch didn't occur in time for the actual note. I suspect this is due to the new standard of placing notation items after the impacted note.

2. The last note played with an articulation when none was expected. This isn't a great example as most people would re-notate pizzicato for the last note for clarity, but this is just for demonstration purposes. However, alternating normal (no articulation) to staccato (or tenuto, marcato, accent, etc) or vice versa is common and currently generates an unintuitive result.

Conclusion:

There needs to be a mechanism to revert to a keyswitch, cc change, expression, etc. when there is no articulation AND the keyswitch, cc change, etc should revert back to the last active notation-track event.
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Old 12-23-2016, 12:47 PM   #32
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@pcartwright: don't know if is case sensitive but you wrote on the score Pizz while pizz is defined in the file
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Old 12-23-2016, 01:11 PM   #33
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It doesn't look like the case mattered. Look at the bounced MIDI and you'll see the keyswitch triggered (F2) after the intended note.
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Old 12-23-2016, 01:13 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
Hi,

Thanks for this feature. It is going to possibly help immensely. Thought, I don't understand everything that's been mentioned here, and I don't install pre's, but what I'd like to ask, is for it to be simple to work with, so easy to program articulation banks and so i can change articulations on midi tracks with two clicks max ( which is a golden rule of design guys, sincerely).
Looks to me like, if I understand what Schwa is doing, he's doing something that may in the end be quite flexible... so I think the path is pretty good.

I'm not a big fan of how Reaper tends to do config files and would prefer (later on) for this thing to have a graphic editor for that, but it looks like it will be pretty flexible. I just hope it doesn't end up like WALTER where all of the config is text editing.

It's a little too early to judge any of it though. Let him do the Schwa thing and we'll see where it all ends up.
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Old 12-23-2016, 01:33 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcartwright View Post
The Pizz keyswitch occurs after the 2nd note and is never heard
A keyswitch notation that is attached to a note will always get sent before the note. That's not currently the case for track notation. So it should work as you expect if you change the "pizz" notation from track dynamics to a note ornament. But we'll make this consistent anyway, so either kind of notation will get sent before any notes occurring at the same time (except vst3 expression which gets sent afterwards as part of the vst3 spec).

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcartwright View Post
The last note played with an articulation when none was expected. This isn't a great example as most people would re-notate pizzicato for the last note for clarity, but this is just for demonstration purposes. However, alternating normal (no articulation) to staccato (or tenuto, marcato, accent, etc) or vice versa is common and currently generates an unintuitive result.
I agree, we need to add a way for the user to define a default or reset keyswitch or expression to be sent if a note has no articulation or ornament markings.
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Old 12-23-2016, 03:06 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
A keyswitch notation that is attached to a note will always get sent before the note. That's not currently the case for track notation. So it should work as you expect if you change the "pizz" notation from track dynamics to a note ornament. But we'll make this consistent anyway, so either kind of notation will get sent before any notes occurring at the same time (except vst3 expression which gets sent afterwards as part of the vst3 spec).
Cool.


Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I agree, we need to add a way for the user to define a default or reset keyswitch or expression to be sent if a note has no articulation or ornament markings.
I think this needs to be carefully thought out. Look at the below example:



EDIT: Ideally, all notes would reference the "with mute" text.

Last edited by pcartwright; 12-23-2016 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 12-23-2016, 10:27 PM   #37
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TYVM for adding this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Anything is possible for the future, but the intent right now is more proof of concept and looking for use cases that affect the overall design.
Please consider making articulation display/editing available in the Piano Roll. Example: http://imgur.com/a/VdcoT. Because I record my notes from MIDI keyboard, because I don't want them quantized (not shown in the image I posted); and I use the Piano Roll for editing. Edited later to add: Maybe this is already done. Sorry for my ignorance, if that's the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
... Doable, but I'd like some more feedback on how general this is, that instruments represent different expressions via different MIDI channels.
Often it's the only option with EWQL libraries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
And this seems lower in priority than keyswitches or VST3 expression, because it's not triggering events that can't be created in other ways -- it's as easy to set note channels in the MIDI editor as it is to add notation.
Having to remember which articulations are on which MIDI channels slows workflow. It's easier to work when you can see the name of the articulation, and during editing you select articulation-names rather than MIDI-channel numbers.

Last edited by TryingToMakeMusic; 12-24-2016 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 12-24-2016, 01:24 AM   #38
MorkV
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One of the possible ways, I think this is fast and simple

and... therefore may add to display a note articulation in Midi editor like in Notation.
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Old 12-24-2016, 02:38 AM   #39
stephane
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a nice toolbar by using musical icons: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=10 Thanks to @reddiesel41264 for sharing these icons



NB: I didn't find an action to delete dynamics. I found Notation: remove articulation, ornament, octave notation, phrase/slur, but no dynamic. any idea ?
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Old 12-24-2016, 04:01 AM   #40
Janne83
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This is a great addition it will greatly help with orchestration

One thing I would suggest is to add an action to reload the articulation map if you made any changes.

Happy holidays

J
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