Old 12-24-2016, 04:27 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Janne83 View Post
This is a great addition it will greatly help with orchestration

One thing I would suggest is to add an action to reload the articulation map if you made any changes.

Happy holidays

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It is already possible to reload the map. By clicking on the button "Artic" there's a menu "Reload"
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Old 12-24-2016, 05:16 AM   #42
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It is already possible to reload the map. By clicking on the button "Artic" there's a menu "Reload"
I know but it takes quite a few clicks to get there if you havent got your VSTi window open.

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Old 12-24-2016, 06:52 AM   #43
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but do we have the ability to define a custom text marking and its action?

Do we have the ability to hide individual score markings? So that we can still have their action applied without them being visible.
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Old 12-24-2016, 07:09 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by reddiesel41264 View Post
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but do we have the ability to define a custom text marking and its action?
Yes.

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Do we have the ability to hide individual score markings? So that we can still have their action applied without them being visible.
I don't think so.
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Old 12-24-2016, 07:17 AM   #45
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Cool.




I think this needs to be carefully thought out. Look at the below example:



EDIT: Ideally, all notes would reference the "with mute" text.
To elaborate, consider this example:



With this mapping:

Code:
track text Mute : cc 0 3 127
track text "With Mute" : cc 0 3 127
track text "Without Mute" : cc 0 3 0
track text Vibrato : cc 0 1 127
track text "No Vibrato" : cc 0 1 0
Playing back from the beginning works great:



But if I start playback from just to the right of the vibrato marking, I get this:



Notice that vibrato map is chased, but the mute map is not. In the case of CC messages, I think it makes sense to chase the most recent value per CC. In this case, the chased values should have been for both CC1 and CC3 and not just CC1.

Obviously, this isn't necessary for keyswitches. I'm not sure if this would apply to VST3 expressions as I don't have any libraries that use this feature.
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Old 12-26-2016, 06:04 PM   #46
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[QUOTE=stephane;1773885]a nice toolbar by using musical icons: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=10 Thanks to @reddiesel41264 for sharing these icons



Stephane, this is SIMPLY PERFECT!!!!! ... Visual, neat and professional...I just want to show it to some "orchestral Cubase professional composers". I don't have words ...

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Old 12-26-2016, 06:38 PM   #47
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I know but it takes quite a few clicks to get there if you havent got your VSTi window open.

J
That's what I mean when I say keep it simple and streamlined. You don't want to break your flow when working. Just have it all at hand when you need it.

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Old 12-27-2016, 02:07 PM   #48
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Forgive my ignorance, a native artic mapper would be a great help. Is there one in Reaper right now? I haven't found any info on that

So far I've been using the BRSO tool for this: http://www.syntheticorchestra.com/articulatereaper/
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:40 PM   #49
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It's in pre-release builds at the moment.
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Old 12-27-2016, 03:31 PM   #50
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Forgive my ignorance, a native artic mapper would be a great help. Is there one in Reaper right now? I haven't found any info on that

So far I've been using the BRSO tool for this: http://www.syntheticorchestra.com/articulatereaper/
That's what this thread is all about
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Old 12-27-2016, 08:57 PM   #51
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Nice additions with the phrase start, continue and end. I haven't had a chance to dig into articulation file with the latest pre, but is there a way to offset or delay the effect on a phrase start? Or would one simply write a line for phrase continue?

The idea is to send a CC message after the start of the phrase but before the second note of the phrase.

Edit
It doesn't look like there is an offset, but I think writing a map for slur continued will do the trick

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Old 12-28-2016, 07:39 AM   #52
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The comments above include suggestions about chasing notation events differently depending on how they are mapped, adding some sort of reset mapping for some types of triggers, and adding a mapping to change the input note channel based on its notation.

All of these suggestions imply that the mapping should be done at the source, within the MIDI editor, rather than at the destination, at the virtual instrument. That would mean the map file (or whatever UI eventually replaces it) would be loaded from the MIDI editor, rather than from the virtual instrument window.
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Old 12-28-2016, 07:42 AM   #53
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All of these suggestions imply that the mapping should be done at the source, within the MIDI editor, rather than at the destination, at the virtual instrument. That would mean the map file (or whatever UI eventually replaces it) would be loaded from the MIDI editor, rather than from the virtual instrument window.
Yep, indeed. Artic button is not really necessary in the plugin's header, if that's what you're implying.
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Old 12-28-2016, 07:55 AM   #54
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All of these suggestions imply that the mapping should be done at the source, within the MIDI editor, rather than at the destination, at the virtual instrument. That would mean the map file (or whatever UI eventually replaces it) would be loaded from the MIDI editor, rather than from the virtual instrument window.
Totally. I agree that adding articulation at VSTi level is a bit confusing, even though it would seem the right place at first thought.
The MIDI editor, as ED mentioned, is the home for articulation settings (because you just edit them there..).

Also, sorry if it's not the right place, in 5.32pre2 loading the "sample" articulation map from within the VSTi button doesn't seem to do anything...

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Old 12-28-2016, 09:37 AM   #55
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Also, sorry if it's not the right place, in 5.32pre2 loading the "sample" articulation map from within the VSTi button doesn't seem to do anything
The sample is just a bunch of comments describing how to create an articulation map, it doesn't actually define any mappings.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:38 AM   #56
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That would mean the map file (or whatever UI eventually replaces it) would be loaded from the MIDI editor, rather than from the virtual instrument window.
Makes sense to me.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:43 AM   #57
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The comments above include suggestions about chasing notation events differently depending on how they are mapped, adding some sort of reset mapping for some types of triggers, and adding a mapping to change the input note channel based on its notation.

All of these suggestions imply that the mapping should be done at the source, within the MIDI editor, rather than at the destination, at the virtual instrument. That would mean the map file (or whatever UI eventually replaces it) would be loaded from the MIDI editor, rather than from the virtual instrument window.
I've not had time yet to get into this feature but in contrary to the below/other opinions it seems right to have the articulation attached to the vsti window IF (and only if) it allows you to save that articulation file with a track template, vst preset or fx chain so that it's recalled with the instrument.

Why would you want to manually load the articulation file up in the midi editor when you can have it stored in the fx chain/vst preset or even track template? (unless track templates could store articulations?)

Most of my articulation maps admittedly are going to be for Kontakt based instruments but even then I can still load them via the fx chains or track template and expect to have the correct articulation file already loaded.

Unless I'm missing something?

I can see why you might want the button in the editor but the actual recalling of these articulation files seems to be most useful attached to the vsti window unless there's a ode of use I'm missing (I guess it's because they also contain other score features that are independent of the vst used)?
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:56 AM   #58
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The question is whether the mapping should happen at the source or the destination.

As it is currently, the mappings happen at the destination. Mappings are saved with the FX, wherever the FX is saved (in a project, track template, saved fx chain, etc). This seems sensible since the FX is the only consumer of the mappings, and MIDI can come in to a given FX from any track.

Mapping at the source would let us support more flexible mappings, such as mapping a notation event to a series of triggered events, chasing different types of triggered events differently, etc. We would probably manage this the way bank/program files and note names are managed, at the track level. So mappings would be saved with the track, wherever the track is saved. But not with the FX chain. And if you have multiple tracks sending MIDI to a single FX, or multiple instances of a given FX, each track would need to have the mappings loaded separately.
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Old 12-28-2016, 10:34 AM   #59
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Thanks for the detailed explanation Schwa!

I'm happy to do it at a track template level since most of my instruments are saved like that so I can also get icons and note names in there too.

So if this enables even more features than awesome and I can see why the others want this too!

I know it's not a score thing but maybe this would allow us to rename controller parameters too so say controller 4 could be named something related to that instrument saved with the track template?

Or is that possible in the articulation system already and I've missed it so far? Don't think so but thought I'd ask/dream!
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:03 AM   #60
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Not really renamed controllers, but you can read notation events in a lane under the piano roll.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:03 AM   #61
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Track template level for articulations makes a metric ton of sense.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:23 AM   #62
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The question is whether the mapping should happen at the source or the destination.

As it is currently, the mappings happen at the destination. Mappings are saved with the FX, wherever the FX is saved (in a project, track template, saved fx chain, etc). This seems sensible since the FX is the only consumer of the mappings, and MIDI can come in to a given FX from any track.

Mapping at the source would let us support more flexible mappings, such as mapping a notation event to a series of triggered events, chasing different types of triggered events differently, etc. We would probably manage this the way bank/program files and note names are managed, at the track level. So mappings would be saved with the track, wherever the track is saved. But not with the FX chain. And if you have multiple tracks sending MIDI to a single FX, or multiple instances of a given FX, each track would need to have the mappings loaded separately.
At the source please.

If i have an FX instrument loaded, that holds 4 different instruments (Kontakt for example), each with different articulation sets, then i'm confined to one map at the destination.

If i have 1 FX with 4 instruments, and route 4 different tracks routed to it, and the map is per track, then each map will be accurate per instrument.

And if i have a massive orchestral template that is normally fairly static once it's built, mapping per track and saving that track as a template means i only need to do it once.

I also read in this thread there was a question about the usefulness of channel mapping. It's important when when using orchestral setups where artics are loaded by channel, for example when the studio setup includes external boxes that are static, and often routed by ethernet, or some other streaming tech reliant on the speed and bandwidth to keep up when streaming midi data. It's been my experience that these external boxes behave better when artics are loaded per channel, versus what i call long distance keyswitching, which can have it's own challenges.

So please add my vote for mapping by channel as well.


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Old 12-28-2016, 11:34 AM   #63
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+1 for at source
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Old 12-28-2016, 12:30 PM   #64
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Another thought.

Should there be logical conditions available? For example, if articulation is staccato AND slur continue then XYZ. Or, if articulation is accent AND NOT note text foo then ABC.
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Old 12-29-2016, 08:26 AM   #65
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Phew! I only now get to try the new feature, but it ain't quite what I expected. I thought it would help me dealing with keyswitched instruments by letting me use a lane in piano roll instead of a range of the piano keys.
But the new method seems to be catered towards notation users a bit more than I like. And going by the little time I spent with it as of now it's super tedious to handle.

- I sort of expected to be able to click into the notation lane and get a menu of articulations to drop in, based on the articulation map file I created.
Hopefully this will be possible should Schwa decide to make the map file load into the MIDI editor instead of the VSTi.
Most of the keyswitches I use aren't available as stock articulations/ornaments/whatnot in the notation editor. Also I don't care for fancy squiggly lines and symbols in the notation sheet,
I just want to see/edit which articulation gets triggered in the piano roll, preferably by the same name the VSTi uses, so notation text would be the most used notation type for me.
Which means to insert articulations right now I have to type the darn text every **** time the articulation changes. Or I create a plethora of scripts for each of the articulation names that I would want to use.
No offense meant to notation users, it's just that I personally don't feel at home with notation, so I don't tend to look at that editor anyway...

- Probably wishful thinking as well, but it's too bad that recorded keyswitches don't get "converted" to events which come up in the notation lane.
For people who record their virtual instruments more or less live and just want to go in and fine tune here and there this makes articulation maps unfavorable.
Either they recreate the keyswitch sequence they just recorded - translating them into notation events manually and delete the notes of the keyswitch range -,
or they live with the shortcomings of dealing with keyswitches as before.

Please don't forget about us musical illiterate folks who would also like to benefit from a comfortable use of articulations.
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Old 12-29-2016, 11:15 AM   #66
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gofer.

most of what you want is in there already bur needs a bit of setup.

what is not in there is auto converting of recorded input. that would be awesome
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Old 12-29-2016, 11:51 AM   #67
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gofer.

most of what you want is in there already bur needs a bit of setup.
I guess most of what I want is less setup

I already did the legwork of creating the artic file, so Reaper could be nice and use that info to my advantage when it comes to inserting events in the notation lane.
I am aware that this will hopefully get better if/when artic files get loaded in the MIDI editor itself, but then again, if it's a similar handling
as Bank/Program (doubleclick -travel to dialog - click dropdown arrow - click list entry - click OK - travel back to CClane), then I dunno if it will be so very helpful.
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Old 12-29-2016, 12:34 PM   #68
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This is why it's still experimental support, not a fully fleshed-out feature. It'll come, but it'll need time to get there.
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Old 12-29-2016, 12:40 PM   #69
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I guess most of what I want is less setup

I already did the legwork of creating the artic file, so Reaper could be nice and use that info to my advantage when it comes to inserting events in the notation lane.
I am aware that this will hopefully get better if/when artic files get loaded in the MIDI editor itself, but then again, if it's a similar handling
as Bank/Program (doubleclick -travel to dialog - click dropdown arrow - click list entry - click OK - travel back to CClane), then I dunno if it will be so very helpful.
Sorry my last post was written whilst walking so a bit short on details

You can set up an articulation file so that when right clicking an an actual note in the midi editor, you can choose one of your own articulation names there to "assign" it to that note. It will then show up in the notation "CC" area and will send out the right kind of change to your VST (if set up in the artic file). Soon it's going to be that you can save the artic file with the track template so that it will always load with it (from a track template).

There's probably other stuff that I've not looked into yet but that was the main gist of it
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Old 12-29-2016, 01:10 PM   #70
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The goal for now is just to make sure the design covers all of the use cases -- to make sure that the framework makes it logically possible to do what needs to be done. For example, some of the previous use cases make it clear that the mapping is better handled in the MIDI editor rather than at the virtual instrument, so the functionality will be moved to the MIDI editor. Ease of use is more of an implementation detail, which comes later. This feature will likely go through many prerelease cycles and end up looking completely different by the time it gets released (which may be quite a while).
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Old 12-29-2016, 05:18 PM   #71
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... letting me use a lane in piano roll... Please don't forget about us musical illiterate folks who would also like to benefit from a comfortable use of articulations.
(I can read notation, but I prefer piano roll too, because too much quantization in timing and dynamics can make a good orchestral library sound like an organ or synth.)
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Old 12-29-2016, 07:27 PM   #72
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Yeah, got a tad ranty there, sorry about that. I didn't notice the Notation entry in the context menu . Duly inserted into my customised menu. Dynamics (track notation) are missing in that menu?

If a context menu can be populated by only the entries of a currently loaded artic file that would help a lot.

On the framework side, please try to make sure that recorded events can be included to the picture. Probably only thinkable for track notation events (dynamic/text), as they are not tied to notes and have a MIDI channel, but I'd live with that. Kind of an inverse map.
Ideally once an artic file is loaded then fitting MIDI events on the recording input would be directly mapped and recorded right into the notation lane. Alternatively, useful anyway, actions to translate notes/CC/channels to (track) notation events (and the other way).
Probably pretty tricky stuff and nothing I couldn't wait for but please, keep that door open.

I can't come up with an example right now, but I think there are also instruments with keyswitches which can be triggered during a sounding note, would only be active for the duration of the keyswitch note
and fall back to the previous articulation when keyswitch note-off is incoming. Those events would need a (editable) duration independent of the note they are affecting.
As would crescendo and similar dynamics.
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Old 12-29-2016, 08:59 PM   #73
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I can't come up with an example right now, but I think there are also instruments with keyswitches which can be triggered during a sounding note, would only be active for the duration of the keyswitch note and fall back to the previous articulation when keyswitch note-off is incoming.
Yeah, this is common enough. One example is Embertone's Herring Clarinet. You press and hold a note to switch a sustain to m2 or M2 trills, and the trill returns to sustain once the keyswitch is released.
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Old 12-30-2016, 01:27 AM   #74
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Doable, but I'd like some more feedback on how general this is, that instruments represent different expressions via different MIDI channels. And this seems lower in priority than keyswitches or VST3 expression, because it's not triggering events that can't be created in other ways -- it's as easy to set note channels in the MIDI editor as it is to add notation.
I would like to stream midi (through midi send) from one track with no vsti to many separate tracks with vsti (about 100 tracks-articulationst) sending midi to different midi buses and channels (REAPER). I'd prefer to switch articulations acting on Notation Events. For this I request:
- Possibility to use Articulation Maps without vsti / any fx inserted. Maybe imbedded in midi editor as a flouting window per track. Or option to have a mapper in plugin format (maybe js)...
- Option to switch midi bus and channel in 'toggle mode'. All CCs with notes go to a new channel and bus after a switcher (a notation event).
- Note Off messages should go to the same channel+buss as a Note On was sent to. (Without note hang)
- The switcher should work wherever to play from - after the switcher or through.

An other idea how to have 100 articulations for one track is to insert 100 vsti plugins on one track... But again... I need access to midi busses in this case.

ps:Please forgive me my English.

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Old 01-01-2017, 07:53 AM   #75
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Damn this is exciting
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:15 PM   #76
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... to have 100 articulations for one track is to insert 100 vsti plugins on one track...
Is it me or why would you want to have one vsti plugin per articulation?
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:31 PM   #77
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Is it me or why would you want to have one vsti plugin per articulation?
I don't think you normally would. I myself tend to have dozens of articulations on a single VSTi and in fact on a single MIDI channel.

But I think the basic point is we'd want a solution that doesn't make assumptions about how many articulations may exist on a track, or how many FX they are spread across, which MIDI channels the articulations are on (they may be all sharing one MIDI channel), what MIDI events are needed to change articulations, or indeed whether or not the VSTi handling the articulations is even on the same track (could be a MIDI send). This shouldn't be a problem as long as articulation changes are arbitrarily translatable to a user-defined MIDI event and standard MIDI routing rules apply.

I'd also want everything fully accessible from APIs, so that scripters can extend or improve the UX.
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Old 01-01-2017, 06:22 PM   #78
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Some sample libraries use CC's to control the dynamics of long articulations and velocity for short articulations. The articulation mapper should be able to switch between these two methods depending on the which method is used by the current articulation.
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Old 01-01-2017, 07:49 PM   #79
pcartwright
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
I can't come up with an example right now, but I think there are also instruments with keyswitches which can be triggered during a sounding note, would only be active for the duration of the keyswitch note
and fall back to the previous articulation when keyswitch note-off is incoming. Those events would need a (editable) duration independent of the note they are affecting.
As would crescendo and similar dynamics.
Similarly, there are "keyswitches" that actually repeat the last played note with either varying samples or techniques (i.e. open string to palm mute or vice versa). This is a feature on a couple of my libraries.
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Old 01-02-2017, 04:19 AM   #80
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Default FR: Using articulation files to rename items in the CC drop down list.

Not sure if this has been properly mentioned yet but could we also make use of these articulation files to change the names of CC messages?

This would be super useful as the brass/winds vsts from sample modeling have loads of control on the CCs but because we can't name them yet, it's hard to recall what they all are at a glance.

If we could use the artic file to swap out names in the CC drop down area, it would be helpful and also useful for normal synths too!
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