Old 01-02-2017, 03:33 PM   #81
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Here's a possible feature request for Spectral Peaks...

If you could make Spectral Peak colors appear on a folder track's "faint" waveform overview AND have it sum all of the "child" spectral information, you could get a realtime sense of how tracks within the folder are mixed together from a spectral perspective.

I'm wondering if the existing spectral peak data could simply be summed to make this possible, rather than having to do a compete re-calculation of the waveform...

Anyway, it seems like a natural place to take the Spectral Peak features in the future!
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Old 01-02-2017, 04:29 PM   #82
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Here's a possible feature request for Spectral Peaks...

If you could make Spectral Peak colors appear on a folder track's "faint" waveform overview AND have it sum all of the "child" spectral information, you could get a realtime sense of how tracks within the folder are mixed together from a spectral perspective.

I'm wondering if the existing spectral peak data could simply be summed to make this possible, rather than having to do a compete re-calculation of the waveform...

Anyway, it seems like a natural place to take the Spectral Peak features in the future!
That could be useful hopefully it wouldn't be too hard!
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Old 01-03-2017, 06:13 AM   #83
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-1 for the sonograms and here is why:
1. Track height. To get useful information in a sonogram it needs to be large in the y-axis.
2. CPU. Izotope RX is the one tool I know and use for spectral editing and if you want some nice looking graphs it draws those in seconds, for one clip. Seconds. Now imagine multitrack. The x-factor. And we zoom in and out vertically as horizontal a lot in Reaper. No "peak-file" can buffer all that information that is needed for every zoom level.
3. Usefulness. To get details it needs to be big. E.g. a fat bassdrum will be a slim little pulse like line. So you will never get an idea about the actual level of the item. And the missing spectral tools will leave you half in the desert because what you see you can't edit - just cut. It will maybe look like Izotope RX but not more.

+1 for the spectral peaks
You can clearly see what is BD and a HH or snare hit.
But I trust those who already worked with such a feature and said it isn't something to last although I find it appealing at first. Time will tell.

My only FR for this would be hotkey to switch it on and off quickly. All the time on it makes the screen too nervous...
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Old 01-03-2017, 06:53 AM   #84
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My only FR for this would be hotkey to switch it on and off quickly. All the time on it makes the screen too nervous...
You already have that, action exists, so you can assign a key to toggle it.
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Old 01-03-2017, 09:24 AM   #85
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You already have that, action exists, so you can assign a key to toggle it.
Of course.

Didn't try the feature so far. I just wanted to emphasize that the switching should be like instant otherwise I wouldn't use it temporarily for special editing.
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Old 01-03-2017, 09:28 AM   #86
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Lu-u-uster did not check theee actions, la-di-da-di-da--dah

Ps, don't worry, you might get the chance to return the favour, still exploring.
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:48 AM   #87
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-1 for the sonograms and here is why:
1. Track height. To get useful information in a sonogram it needs to be large in the y-axis.
2. CPU. Izotope RX is the one tool I know and use for spectral editing and if you want some nice looking graphs it draws those in seconds, for one clip. Seconds. Now imagine multitrack. The x-factor. And we zoom in and out vertically as horizontal a lot in Reaper. No "peak-file" can buffer all that information that is needed for every zoom level.
3. Usefulness. To get details it needs to be big. E.g. a fat bassdrum will be a slim little pulse like line. So you will never get an idea about the actual level of the item. And the missing spectral tools will leave you half in the desert because what you see you can't edit - just cut. It will maybe look like Izotope RX but not more.
For my line of work, it's still worth it. But I understand it wouldn't be useful for what REAPER is generally used for: music composition.

I wonder if it might be possible to just create a spectral view of the REAPER project by constantly retrieving the audio from, say, selected track (or just the entire project), rendering (and saving) a spectral image and displaying it based on the current view of the timeline. By not moving any items in the project, the saved spectral image would be relevant until you're ready to make changes to the project... even that would be pretty useful despite its shortcomings.
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Old 01-05-2017, 07:54 AM   #88
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it wouldn't be useful for what REAPER is generally used for: music composition
Reaper is the most versatile DAW available and - thanks to it's extended APIs configurability and scriptability - can be used for multiple purposes including recording, mixing, live playing, embedded work and a lot more, and - yes - music composition.

So it's a really bad idea to suppose any dedicated "main usage".

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Old 01-05-2017, 12:54 PM   #89
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-1 for the sonograms and here is why:
+1 on sonograms:

Quote:
1. Track height. To get useful information in a sonogram it needs to be large in the y-axis.
Sure, but we can easily make a track large in the y axis when desired with a hotkey.

Quote:
2. CPU. Izotope RX is the one tool I know and use for spectral editing and if you want some nice looking graphs it draws those in seconds, for one clip. Seconds. Now imagine multitrack. The x-factor. And we zoom in and out vertically as horizontal a lot in Reaper. No "peak-file" can buffer all that information that is needed for every zoom level.
RX is indeed slow with the sonograms, but I don't think it means Reaper can't pull it off. Intuitively it seems like it would certainly take way more CPU than regular peaks or spectral peaks, but not necessarily impractical amounts, especially if it's not on globally.

Even if you can't reasonably have it on for a whole project, being able to toggle it on for an item could be very useful when editing or analyzing audio. Opening the item in a VST or third-party app to see the sonogram is annoying, and it loses the relationship with other audio in the project.

Quote:
3. Usefulness. To get details it needs to be big.
A sonogram could definitely show transition points between, say, syllables in speech or singing, or changes from one note to the next, that could be missed by the spectrogram, especially in more complicated audio. A lot of the usefulness is just what you suggested: knowing where to cut.

Seems like well-implemented spectral peaks will get us 85% of the way there, and spectrograms could be the last 15%. I won't be surprised if it's not a dev priority, given the complexity it must involve, but it'd be neat.

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My only FR for [spectral peaks] would be hotkey to switch it on and off quickly. All the time on it makes the screen too nervous...
Isn't there such a hotkey now? If not, then +1 to this. :-) Quick toggles are appreciated for almost any feature.
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Old 01-05-2017, 12:56 PM   #90
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Out of pure curiousity: is the cepstrum used at all for calculating spectral peaks? I don't understand the math, but it sounds like a potential application for it.
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Old 01-05-2017, 04:44 PM   #91
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If spectral mode would be added to items (not spectral peaks), I guess all samplitude users would be saying... hah welcome to 2013 REAPER users! here is a video of how it works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bftcT-rbybc

The problem is that then we would also want the editing features in spectral view, like in RX. Not only a beautiful spectral view. All this is a lot for a small update. Maybe in REAPER 6.x, I guess.
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:15 PM   #92
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Amazing !!!

Would be a great addition to Reaper.

Could something like that be done as an add-on ?

Maybe somebody even already provides it ?!?!?!

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Old 01-06-2017, 07:09 AM   #93
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If spectral mode would be added to items (not spectral peaks), I guess all samplitude users would be saying... hah welcome to 2013 REAPER users! here is a video of how it works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bftcT-rbybc

The problem is that then we would also want the editing features in spectral view, like in RX. Not only a beautiful spectral view. All this is a lot for a small update. Maybe in REAPER 6.x, I guess.

Since Schwa is part of Stilwell and makers of "spectro" (see image below), I don't think there should be a problem of adding spectral features to reaper.


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Old 01-06-2017, 07:12 AM   #94
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Except that would add latency and CPU load. So use Spectro when it already exists, then
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Old 01-06-2017, 07:52 AM   #95
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Except that would add latency and CPU load. So use Spectro when it already exists, then
Or, if you really need it, RX

It would take the devs probably quite a bit of time to get the editing up to what is in RX so although I would love to have it in Reaper. Is it worth reinventing the wheel (although an expensive wheel) when there are other things the devs could be working on that are not covered by other methods?
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Old 01-06-2017, 08:00 AM   #96
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its a nice feature, but I still don't really see the utility. Comparisonics type things have a lot of utility to me, however.
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Old 01-06-2017, 08:02 AM   #97
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actually I can kinda see it, but do RX or spectro have a thing that searches for other patterns like one you find? So you can eliminate a series of noises that match a particular spectral pattern?
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Old 01-06-2017, 08:23 AM   #98
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its a nice feature, but I still don't really see the utility. Comparisonics type things have a lot of utility to me, however.
I've personally found loads of uses already for it depending on how the settings are set up (need presets ideally).

It can show you kick, snare, hats and crashes in one setting with bass, guitars, vocals etc in distinct colours and even sibilance is super obvious. (not too mention any spectral changes in a sound).

Then in octave mode, you basically can see all the note (and even chord) changes in each item. (mostly anyway).

That's pretty powerful I think

Once you get use to the colours (I put deep purple in the low bass end) then it's kind of quicker at a glance (when zoomed out) then a spectral view is.

Combining both maybe yes but depends on CPU and overhead.

I'd love to have both though! Just not if it's months of work.
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Old 01-06-2017, 01:56 PM   #99
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do RX or spectro have a thing that searches for other patterns like one you find? So you can eliminate a series of noises that match a particular spectral pattern?
RX has a few fancy features like picking harmonics of what you have selected, intelligent infill of sounds from surrounding timbre, etc. I don't recall an ability to pattern search, though.

Generally I'm not sure any of us are agitating for RX to be implemented in the track view (not that we'd complain!), just making the case that there might be some utility to sonograms, and whatever features on top of that would be a bonus.

It's probably moot since they're just implementing spectral peaks now anyway. :-)
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Old 01-07-2017, 10:47 AM   #100
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i tried spectro but found it very limited. the gui was particularly frustrating as it was limited in sizing, as i recall (was a while ago). i came to reaper from samplitude which has had spectral editing for a long time. for me, integration is by far the better way to work. third party solutions have just been frustrating on a number of levels. a preference section would possibly help with those who wouldn't use it and want to gain performance by turning it off.
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Old 01-07-2017, 02:02 PM   #101
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third party solution would not be able to keep track of items moved... wonder if it would make sense to have spectro as an item fx... last time I tried spectro I couldn't use it for detailed edits, its fft resolution was not great enough. Spectro needs more options and flexibility. Does spectro have a resizeable GUI?
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Old 01-07-2017, 02:08 PM   #102
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third party solution would not be able to keep track of items moved...
VST2/3 plugins can use the Reaper API to keep track of things like the items and their positions on the track.

Full extension plugins could also implement per-item spectral views/editing.

However, the fact those things could be done 3rd party code, doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it.
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Old 01-07-2017, 11:51 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
VST2/3 plugins can use the Reaper API to keep track of things like the items and their positions on the track.

Full extension plugins could also implement per-item spectral views/editing.

However, the fact those things could be done 3rd party code, doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it.
Would an ARA API provide the necessary information (playback cursor and stored sound information) in a somewhat less propriety (i.e. not Reaper propriety but Celemony propriety, but I understand that there are more than one DAW providing this API) way ?

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Old 01-08-2017, 12:10 AM   #104
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Would an ARA API provide the necessary information (playback cursor and stored sound information) in a somewhat less propriety (i.e. not Reaper propriety but Celemony propriety, but I understand that there are more than one DAW providing this API) way ?

-Michael
Right, the point of ARA is to get access to the host's audio data (in an offline fashion) and some other information in a more universal way. (Not relying on the specific host's implementations of those things.)

However, doing an ARA plugin is probably not the best of ideas at the moment, either. There isn't really any guarantee Studio One, Tracktion and Sonar will be able to load and use anything else than Melodyne properly.

edit : My point about "does not mean it's a good idea to do it" about the spectral view/editor stuff in Reaper was more about avoiding what can happen with 3rd party extensions : they eventually might no longer work and the developer might no longer be willing to work on them. It is IMHO a core feature the Reaper developers should implement. (But pretty much all the building blocks needed for 3rd party developers are in the API, if somebody wants to start attempting to do it anyway. The audio data can be accessed offline, the media item graphics can be replaced with a custom view/editor and processed audio can be played back from the item media sources.)
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:49 AM   #105
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My number one request at this stage (5.32 pre10) of development is user definable presets for the spectral peaks and a resizable settings window. Everything else about it is extremely useful right now.
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:53 AM   #106
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My number one request at this stage (5.32 pre10) of development is user definable presets for the spectral peaks and a resizable settings window. Everything else about it is extremely useful right now.
If devs could add API functions from reascript to modify the parameters for peak settings, then we could create a script to manage peak display presets and leave them do other things.
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:56 AM   #107
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If devs could add API functions from reascript to modify the parameters for peak settings, then we could create a script to manage peak display presets and leave them do other things.
That's true but I'm hoping it would be reasonably simple to implement it natively. Something like the presets manager for the Reaplugs would work IMHO.
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Old 01-08-2017, 12:33 PM   #108
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My number one request at this stage (5.32 pre10) of development is user definable presets for the spectral peaks and a resizable settings window. Everything else about it is extremely useful right now.
Agreed
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Old 01-08-2017, 04:46 PM   #109
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Cockos have made a pretty good job of the Spectral peaks feature. Here's a comparison to the Samplitude Comparisonics. Although I'm used to the colour gradient of Comparisonics. It shouldn't be too hard to replicate no?

[IMG]http://imagizer.**************/v2/xq90/922/uTPcnl.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://imagizer.**************/v2/xq90/923/1D2a3b.jpg[/IMG]

I can't get my images to show up for some reason only the links.
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Old 01-08-2017, 05:58 PM   #110
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Agreed
And associated actions o' course
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:25 AM   #111
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Your links don't show up either. Use imgur!
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:43 AM   #112
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Demonstration that 3rd parties could do the spectral item view thing (the crappy spectral graphics are due to not spending much time on that part of the code) :



This isn't anything I am interested at the moment to work on further, though. It's a very tricky thing to implement so that it doesn't consume inordinate amounts of CPU (especially on the GUI thread so that things don't become jerky), memory and hard disk IO.
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Old 01-09-2017, 09:40 AM   #113
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WOW Xenakios! nice demo though and gives hopes that some crazy person will take this one.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:31 AM   #114
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We've actually done a bit of experimentation with this too:



(thankfully the spectropeaks development included a lot of common work which will make extending the displays easier in the future)

And it mostly works, but to be honest to get any real value (other than "that's neat!") you really have to make this feature deep -- provide a lot of controls and customizability.

Also, these qualities are desired:
  • provide a lot of precision and information (the above graphs have 128 bands and are pretty much useless IMO)
  • speed
  • support all kinds of media

Choose two.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:39 AM   #115
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If a detailed spectral view can be rendered and then REAPER runs fast (only referring to the pre-rendered images) that's what matters for me. I'll gladly wait an hour for spectral views to be rendered.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:44 AM   #116
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Very promising feature, Justin !
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:47 AM   #117
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Glad to see it's been experimented with!

I can see totally see what you mean about use over speed etc.

for me, it would be nice to be able to toggle it on maybe for the selected track (or "scan selected track" so that that track has a spectogram peak file associated with it now).

also, unless you can spectral edit (like in RX), the main use would be the advantage it can give at the higher frequencies in picking out certain unwanted tones or noise (which is hard to do on waveforms with high frequencies almost lost anyway) but unless the mouse had a tooltip to show frequency at the mouse position then it's still not as useful as people might think it is.

Maybe.. it just looks cool! If it's a lot of work though, i'd much rather see support for ARA as that really IS something that would be massively useful to people with melodyne and in that same sense, any serious audio editing in the frequency domain really needs RX unless there's a lot of work done on it here which might be better spent elsewhere when there's better tools out there for this stuff already.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:48 AM   #118
Xenakios
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Why do people assume precalculated "images" as in literal bitmaps that could be "shown"(*) on the screen would be the most efficient or even a good way to implement the sonograms? (I've experimented with that kind of a thing myself, but mostly to keep some things simpler. I have not done actual benchmarks and other tests.)

(*) In order to support zooming/resizing those would need quite a bit of data/pixel processing too.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:54 AM   #119
Argitoth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
Everyone is allowed to run a sonogram application in the background, routing their master there, so they can watch some spectral output.
I'm content using my ears for that. The point of a spectrogram is to "hear", with your eyes, everything at a glance. That will allow me to make split second decisions, which is important when you have hours of editing work to do.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:59 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
We've actually done a bit of experimentation with this too:

...

(thankfully the spectropeaks development included a lot of common work which will make extending the displays easier in the future)

And it mostly works, but to be honest to get any real value (other than "that's neat!") you really have to make this feature deep -- provide a lot of controls and customizability.

Also, these qualities are desired:
  • provide a lot of precision and information (the above graphs have 128 bands and are pretty much useless IMO)
  • speed
  • support all kinds of media

Choose two.

Ooh, definitely the first two, although if the processing is done on generation and stored similar to a peaks file with the peaks, surely it's only down to memory if you go mad with this in you arrange view?

Allow (re)generating these per item/take and at a user requested depth/resolution per item/take and it starts getting useful... ie bung them on at general resolution and wind the bands/depth up on those that need a closer look; allow a fadeable peak waveform overlay and this starts being a useful editing tool rather than a novelty.

Suddenly REAPER could have two very useful new display modes: spectral peaks and spectrogram fill. Please don't dismiss this as merely a pretty novelty Justin, this could be something good...




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