Old 06-01-2017, 06:39 PM   #241
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thanks for the consideration.

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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
1. The request only applies to FX parameter envelopes, right? For track parameters like volume/pan/etc the knob combines with the envelope, so you can already accomplish this just by leaving the underlying envelope at unity/center/etc.
it applies to all envelopes. the request is that at any point where there is envelope data at all, it would be contained inside an item. automation items are much easier to edit than envelope data. leaving the underlying envelope at unity/center still wrestles control away from any MIDI or osc controller you're using, too, unless you're actively recording envelope data.


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2. Is there any use case for this other than live playing?
yes. it allows us to not hand over control from the MIDI controller the second we enable the envelope. this is useful at every stage of the writing and editing process, as well as live performance.

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Specifically thinking about when seeking within the project, if FX parameter values need to be chased back to the previous automation item.
i wouldn't want it to chase anything unless there was actually envelope data under the play cursor -- and if there was, it'd be contained in an automation item. this would also apply to live playing. much like the way midi CCs don't chase if you record/play a curve from 127 to 0, and then seek to later in the project where the most recent CC was 127. you'd still be at 0 unless your play cursor actively went over the CC data with no chasing involved. i fully expect that many tracks will have AIs taking up the entire duration of the project length. others will not for reasons described above and below.

Quote:
you also don't get anything from the requested feature that you can't already accomplish by just leaving the underlying envelope alone, and using the existing setting to attach the underlying envelope to the right side of automation items.
you'd get the best of both worlds - recorded FX parameter automation playing the param back when there is an automation item under play cursor, and the ability to use your CCs to control the param when there is not automation data under the play cursor.
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Old 06-02-2017, 04:35 AM   #242
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After just trying some stuff that mccrabney mentions out myself, I have to admit, I'd probably rather have this behaviour too.

Right now unless you're in latch preview mode, any parameters you wish to manipulate or try out are completely locked as soon as even one value has been recorded which is quite frustrating.

An option that means to freely move FX parameters in any areas that automation items are not would be amazing.

It's always been a frustration with me that you get locked out and although we can switch to latch preview now. It's not as intuitive.

The other thing there then is not having to have a "stray" automation line that depending on options either interpolates or stays static which isn't that useful either.

Also, to be able to record directly into automation items as well maybe (although I can see some issues with this maybe?)

Hope this is doable as I think it would make more intuitive sense to a lot of people.
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Old 06-02-2017, 04:56 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
leaving the underlying envelope at unity/center still wrestles control away from any MIDI or osc controller you're using, too, unless you're actively recording envelope data.
Is this correct? Testing here with an OSC or web controller, existing automation takes over controllers that are mapped to FX parameters, the same way FX knobs on the FX UI are taken over, but controllers mapped to track parameters like volume or pan remain active for trim, the same way the TCP controls do.


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Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
i wouldn't want it to chase anything unless there was actually envelope data under the play cursor
This makes playback non-deterministic if you seek within the project, which is a pretty big deal. For example, region renders could sound different from full-project renders. Making this sort of a live playback or composition mode, rather than an editing or mastering mode. I am happy to continue discussing the idea but the concept of introducing different use case modes like this would be, like I said, a big deal.

Maybe it could be an automation mode? In addition to trim, touch, latch etc, individual envelopes or global automation could be set to trim automation items only, touch automation items only, latch automation items only, etc, and the envelope would be disabled outside of automation items when in that mode?
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:19 AM   #244
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my timing is really bad here as i'm scrambling to get together for a camping trip this weekend, but i will be revisiting this discussion early next week.

meanwhile i am confident that several others understand this request and the whys behind it - demonstrated by musicbynumbers above

i have been thinking more about the chase issue you have described, schwa, and my comparison to how this was handled via midi ccs (the way this kind of thing was handled in hardware midi sequencers like mpcs, ie non-chase). perhaps some sort of "chase to last previous value" option would be helpful to retain deterministic playback.

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Originally Posted by schwa
Testing here with an OSC or web controller, existing automation takes over controllers that are mapped to FX parameters, the same way FX knobs on the FX UI are taken over, but controllers mapped to track parameters like volume or pan remain active for trim, the same way the TCP controls do.
ah, that may be the case for TCP controls -- i only ever use mouse-drawn envelopes for those params (pan, volume), vs the ccs i (would) use for fx params. the bolded part above is the issue for me. enabling envelopes basically removes your midi cc learn to FX parameters.

--

beyond all of this, there is also the workflow and visual improvement in having AIs contain all envelope data rather than an underlying track envelope (as option, as always AOAA). i haven't focused on that in this conversation, though i feel it strongly
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:29 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Is this correct? Testing here with an OSC or web controller, existing automation takes over controllers that are mapped to FX parameters, the same way FX knobs on the FX UI are taken over, but controllers mapped to track parameters like volume or pan remain active for trim, the same way the TCP controls do.
For me it's the FX parameters that I would love to not have taken over when all that's on the automation lane at that point is an arbitrary line that represents the last automation position of say an AI.

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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
This makes playback non-deterministic if you seek within the project, which is a pretty big deal. For example, region renders could sound different from full-project renders. Making this sort of a live playback or composition mode, rather than an editing or mastering mode. I am happy to continue discussing the idea but the concept of introducing different use case modes like this would be, like I said, a big deal.

Maybe it could be an automation mode? In addition to trim, touch, latch etc, individual envelopes or global automation could be set to trim automation items only, touch automation items only, latch automation items only, etc, and the envelope would be disabled outside of automation items when in that mode?
I don't think that is would have to break anything but happy if it was a new option called something like "Trim:live" perhaps?

Maybe seeking can still work as normal (as can rendering) by setting the automation value to the last previous value upon seeking the timeline or by rendering multiple regions etc.

It's mostly about having plugins not locked down so at a moments notice you can try out different parameters or filter sweeps etc in that area in between say 2 automation items without first having to go into trim mode.

If the user did like the changes perhaps we can have an action to create automation items with the time selection from those newly set parameters (for automation lanes already activated) which would tie into Airon's automation wishlist etc but that's getting ahead of it all

Hopefully, someone else will also come along and add some potentially better reasoning and resolves too than I can.
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:45 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Maybe it could be an automation mode? In addition to trim, touch, latch etc, individual envelopes or global automation could be set to trim automation items only, touch automation items only, latch automation items only, etc, and the envelope would be disabled outside of automation items when in that mode?
I think it should be a toggle action and a setting in Preferences for automation: use only automation items, disregard and hide underlying envelope.

Could that help, rather than introducing a bunch of new automation modes?


Why not check out how some DAWs which are automation item based handle this? Like FL Studio, for example.

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Old 06-02-2017, 06:22 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I think it should be a toggle action and a setting in Preferences for automation: use only automation items, disregard and hide underlying envelope.

Could that help, rather than introducing a bunch of new automation modes?


Why not check out how some DAWs which are automation item based handle this? Like FL Studio, for example.
I don't think the preference would work well, because you may often want this to apply on just a select set of tracks.
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Old 06-02-2017, 08:40 AM   #248
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Quote:
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I think it should be a toggle action and a setting in Preferences for automation: use only automation items, disregard and hide underlying envelope.
Perhaps for every envelope itself.

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Old 06-10-2017, 09:22 AM   #249
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Sorry if already discussed,
Any plans to add a bypass option to AI? I think it would come in handy especially with layered AIs.
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Old 06-10-2017, 09:42 AM   #250
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Sorry if already discussed,
Any plans to add a bypass option to AI? I think it would come in handy especially with layered AIs.
I think Automation items are items, that is why we should have Mute button, not bypass button. It would be great to bring AI maximally closer to normal items.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:26 AM   #251
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Automation Items are not items, that is what we all wanted and asked for, Cockos decided to create containers, and they are finished with the design, this thread should be unstickied.
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Old 06-25-2017, 04:00 PM   #252
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well, i'll be there at this release to request real automation items.

stop holding our midi learns hostage via track-length automation envelopes, please. the lack of understanding or appreciation of this issue is getting very frustrating. maybe this is just what happens when a longterm user (2007) finally (finally!) gets on the wrong side of a feature release but damn.

yall have been so good to me, to the point where i can say you've allowed for my career, because i will not and at this point cannot transition to ableton.

this new feature set will be sweet, useful and good for many reasons that i will espouse, but it does not fulfill the automation item FR
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Old 07-01-2017, 06:26 AM   #253
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I would like the AI items to be added to the project bay.
It will vastly improves my workflow.
I use to drag & drop media items from the project bay to the arrange window and it will usefull if I could do the same with the AI linked to this midi item.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:23 AM   #254
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AI in project bay would be awesome! Especially if we could preview their shape somehow.

Perhaps even Media Explorer could be a good place for them (since there's a waveform preview display in there by dewfault)?
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Old 07-01-2017, 04:54 PM   #255
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Quote:
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AI in project bay would be awesome! Especially if we could preview their shape somehow.

Perhaps even Media Explorer could be a good place for them (since there's a waveform preview display in there by dewfault)?
That would definitely be the icing on the cake for them!
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Old 07-02-2017, 09:54 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
AI in project bay would be awesome! Especially if we could preview their shape somehow.

Perhaps even Media Explorer could be a good place for them (since there's a waveform preview display in there by dewfault)?
Very neat idea, YES !!
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:41 AM   #257
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WOOOOOOOOOOW! I was 2 years out from production and I currently randomly installed latest pre-build and I see ......... AUTOMATION CLIPS !!!!!

OMFG this should be huge. Thank you schwa! It was a loooong time but it happened!
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Old 07-31-2017, 07:58 AM   #258
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will the AI have Bezier curves?
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:03 AM   #259
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will the AI have Bezier curves?
It has already.
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:53 PM   #260
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Item envelope best solution what I've been seeing is what it's made in the Reason.

Handy, no mess and colour for each one.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:20 AM   #261
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FL has better automation items than Reason by a long shot.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:23 AM   #262
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FL has better automation items than Reason by a long shot.
could you show?)
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:25 AM   #263
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could you show?)
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...utomation+clip
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:39 AM   #264
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didn't change mind)
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Old 08-17-2017, 03:38 AM   #265
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FL's automation curves are far more flexible than anything Reason offers. Hell, even Reaper's AIs are more flexible with the LFO (which I can't seem to find if it's even available in Reason). Reason has been behind the curve for quite some time now, end of discussion.
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Old 08-17-2017, 03:46 AM   #266
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FL's automation curves are far more flexible than anything Reason offers. Hell, even Reaper's AIs are more flexible with the LFO (which I can't seem to find if it's even available in Reason). Reason has been behind the curve for quite some time now, end of discussion.
I mean only the item one without lfo and so on.

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Old 08-18-2017, 03:41 PM   #267
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Old 08-18-2017, 04:20 PM   #268
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I see nothing special there. Reaper does all that. FL does all that and much more.
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Old 08-18-2017, 11:40 PM   #269
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Please describe which specific action(s) that you show are not possible in Reaper in your opinion.

I agree with ED that everything i see you doing is possible in latest Reaper's pre-release.
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Old 08-19-2017, 12:50 AM   #270
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Please describe which specific action(s) that you show are not possible in Reaper in your opinion.

I agree with ED that everything i see you doing is possible in latest Reaper's pre-release.
1.Create new AI and change colour
2.Behaving mouse on AI
3.Main line on AI stay in passive view

Of course LFO on AI it's great but when you accidentally shifted a couple points and don't know what expect of it when moving AIs it isn't really handy.

At least I'm glad that AI is got has in Reaper at all.

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Old 08-19-2017, 02:08 AM   #271
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OK, Reaper can't change AI colors just yet, but hopefully that will be coming in due time. Mouse behaves just fine in AIs (you have an option not to move an envelope point after other points, Preferences->Editing Behavior->Envelope Display->[x] Prevent mouse edits of single envelope points from moving past other envelope points). And it seems that automation envelope being inactive outside of AI and its non-deterministic nature does not appeal to schwa.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:24 AM   #272
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IMHO Automation items in Reason are very good ! They work basically like audio items and you can move them across tracks in the entire project. The editing options are vast but it's very consistent and works in the same way as audio items. I hope the Cockos team is aware of the Reason implementation and will get inspired by it. Looking forward next updates !
XXX
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Old 08-20-2017, 05:26 PM   #273
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and "bounce zoom"
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:06 AM   #274
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can the appearance of an envelope lane be switched between linear and logarithmic yet? probably half the parameters would be logarithmic and half would be linear, and it seems like an inevitable feature. i'm assuming this has already been covered, but since I don't know, I'll ask.


If this feature does not exist, it should be per-lane, rather than per-item, because one lane represents one parameter.
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:40 AM   #275
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Log scaling only makes sense for volume envelopes, and they already have two ways you can scale them.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:10 AM   #276
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Quote:
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Log scaling only makes sense for volume envelopes,
and they already have two ways you can scale them.
ok, so linear and logarithmic envelope representation on lanes exists now?

you forget about the frequency domain, and there are infinite parameters,
parameters are basically "choices" and programmers may create a new kind of
parameter that is neither volume or frequency. data types are finite,
but meta typing is infinite.

some parameters will be linear, some will be logarithmic.
so to display automation envelopes only one of those ways would be sub-optimal.

Reaper could not automatically do it, but it should be an option for lanes.
so if you drag an automation item from a logarithmic automation lane (view) to
a linear automation lane (again, as viewed) then the automation item should just
conform to the settings of the new automation lane.
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:41 AM   #277
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Quote:
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ok, so linear and logarithmic envelope representation on lanes exists now?

you forget about the frequency domain, and there are infinite parameters,
parameters are basically "choices" and programmers may create a new kind of
parameter that is neither volume or frequency. data types are finite,
but meta typing is infinite.

some parameters will be linear, some will be logarithmic.
so to display automation envelopes only one of those ways would be sub-optimal.

Reaper could not automatically do it, but it should be an option for lanes.
so if you drag an automation item from a logarithmic automation lane (view) to
a linear automation lane (again, as viewed) then the automation item should just
conform to the settings of the new automation lane.
The parameter you are controlling should always be scaling linear input to the appropriate scale. Nearly all controls work linearly as it is, so if the process requires some other scaling then it already has to scale it from a linear input.

There's no need for Reaper to handle this at all.
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Old 09-04-2017, 02:49 AM   #278
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The parameter you are controlling should always be scaling linear input to the appropriate scale. Nearly all controls work linearly as it is, so if the process requires some other scaling then it already has to scale it from a linear input.

There's no need for Reaper to handle this at all.
it may be true that there's no need for you, but to say there is no need to change the scaling in an automation envelope is making a broad generalization.

what if you wanted to automate readelay in the double digit millisecond range? there are infinite plugins, and all of them scale to the taste of the program developers. you can make parameters to change smells and colors with reaper, not just volume and frequency. infinite possibilities, lighting, biofeedback, ergonomics, robot drum solenoids, boutique bespoke mojo sound effects, and there's no two plugins alike. some are vastly different in implementation.

the scaling of the automation envelope is significant, and i do not hold all of the answers as to how best it should or should not be handled. I hand this to RDJ (if you are reading)

envelope lane weighting will come to pass eventually. it is inevitable, because Reaper is on point. no rush, it was just a question.
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Old 09-16-2017, 09:14 AM   #279
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I found a small bug for automation items:

- Draw a MIDI item.
- Draw an automation item underneath.
- Make sure to set envelope points to move with media items.
- Copy the media item (ctrl + left drag for me).
- Keep dragging, but let go of ctrl.
- The automation item should be left behind allowing you to separate the media item from it.

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Old 09-16-2017, 09:21 AM   #280
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Talk about your bug here :

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=195970
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