Old 06-16-2017, 01:43 PM   #1
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Default Reaper v5.50rc2 - June 16 2017

v5.50rc2 - June 16 2017
  • # Automation items: fix glue and other actions when there are multiple points at the very end of the automation item [p=1856112]
  • # Envelopes: fix crash when editing an envelope that has only one point [p=1856112]
  • # Envelopes: sort points if necessary after editing via action
Changelog - Pre-Releases

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Old 06-17-2017, 05:39 AM   #2
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Thanks for putting the direct link to the pre-release builds in this thread.
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Old 06-17-2017, 05:45 AM   #3
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Thanks for putting the direct link to the pre-release builds in this thread.
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Old 06-17-2017, 05:45 AM   #4
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What would be a typical use case where user would want to have the underlying envelope removed when inserting a new automation item?

The current behavior where underlyin envelope is removed seems to create many problems. What is the reason for this behavior?

Here is one simple example where the behavior seems strange:


I would prefer inserting new AIs to preserve all underlying envelope points. There could be a separate action to remove the underlying points.

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Old 06-17-2017, 06:07 AM   #5
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Try using the option to connect to AI from both sides. Everybody's happy. Then basically AIs become your envelope.

EDIT: On the other hand this might be a bug, since it's not creating a point where the old point was after AI is created, IF you start your AI collecting from the exact location of an envelope point?
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Old 06-17-2017, 06:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Try using the option to connect to AI from both sides. Everybody's happy. Then basically AIs become your envelope.
But this is not the answer to the more fundamental question. Why someone would want the underlying envelope to be removed?
If you move the inserted AI, you can see that the underlying envelope is ruined. The same happens also with the "Both sides" connection preference. Why would someone want that kind of unexpected destructive behavior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
EDIT: On the other hand this might be a bug, since it's not creating a point where the old point was after AI is created, IF you start your AI collecting from the exact location of an envelope point?
Yes, it might be a bug it this special case, but there are many similar issues related to the same fundamental behavior.
Here is another example:

See also how the envelope shape is ruined in front of the AI where the curved segment started. The curved shape is changed to linear after AI is inserted. This, and many similar problems, would be easily solved by preserving the underlying envelope.

Edit: With "Both sides" connection mode, it is not so easy to solve this particular case. It might be impossible to make the curved envelope segment in front of the AI to be exactly the same as before inserting the AI. But with "Neither side" and "Right side" connection modes it should work if underlying envelope was preserved.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 06-17-2017 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:07 AM   #7
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Quote:
Here is one simple example where the behavior seems strange:


I would prefer inserting new AIs to preserve all underlying envelope points. There could be a separate action to remove the underlying points.
Seems logical here-the only thing that does not in that gif is when moved right-the new positioned points could be ramped- not a sharp cutoff like that squared shape?? no join or ramping there? Oh I guess that's just how it works..k.
If you want additions you can add stacked trims right?
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:20 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
But this is not the answer to the more fundamental question. Why someone would want the underlying envelope to be removed?
If you move the inserted AI, you can see that the underlying envelope is ruined. The same happens also with the "Both sides" connection preference. Why would someone want that kind of unexpected destructive behavior?



Yes, it might be a bug it this special case, but there are many similar issues related to the same fundamental behavior.
Here is another example:

See also how the envelope shape is ruined in front of the AI where the curved segment started. The curved shape is changed to linear after AI is inserted. This, and many similar problems, would be easily solved by preserving the underlying envelope.

jnif
FWIW, I reported this 3 times in earlier releases... I can't imagine any time where the curve break or the background ramp is useful.

There's also some instances where if you partially capture a curve, the resulting interpolation is pretty poor.
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:56 AM   #9
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when will AIs be included in Reaper?
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:59 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKeehl View Post
when will AIs be included in Reaper?
In version 5.50?
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
But this is not the answer to the more fundamental question. Why someone would want the underlying envelope to be removed?
If you move the inserted AI, you can see that the underlying envelope is ruined. The same happens also with the "Both sides" connection preference. Why would someone want that kind of unexpected destructive behavior?



Yes, it might be a bug it this special case, but there are many similar issues related to the same fundamental behavior.
Here is another example:

See also how the envelope shape is ruined in front of the AI where the curved segment started. The curved shape is changed to linear after AI is inserted. This, and many similar problems, would be easily solved by preserving the underlying envelope.

Edit: With "Both sides" connection mode, it is not so easy to solve this particular case. It might be impossible to make the curved envelope segment in front of the AI to be exactly the same as before inserting the AI. But with "Neither side" and "Right side" connection modes it should work if underlying envelope was preserved.

jnif
I tried my hardest to stress this super early on I sincerely feel that AIs should be an expandable separate lane from the envelope, but collapsable to be viewable as we have them now. That way, inserting/deleting AIs does not require edgepoints, doesn't destroy other points (there's no points to destroy, they are alone in their own lane!), and would just simplify all of the bugginess and special cases.
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:09 AM   #12
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Well, that is not possible without a LOT more work, which would completely break some other parts we all love and use (SWS, for example, even though a decent number of envelope actions in SWS are in fact broken now - they need updating, because the chunk for AIs is not taken into account). Having a whole new GUI area would also break SWS contextual toolbars, for example.

So this was really the best possible solution without introducing a completely new part of the GUI that is not related to envelope lanes at all. Also, AIs are required to work when envelopes are NOT shown in separate lanes, that makes your proposition quite implausible.
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:26 AM   #13
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I was not suggesting that AIs should have a separate lane, or that it should be possible to completelly disable envelopes outside AIs. I agree that those would be nice features, but it is a different discussion, and probably lot of work to implement those.

Instead, I would like the existing AI features to be more user-friendly and logical. And it seems that preserving underlying envelopes when inserting/drawing new AIs would be a big improvement. It seems to be an easy change to the existing features.

The Automation Items feature should not be released if nobody knows why it works the way it works. At least, there should be reasonable use cases for the behaviors of basic operations.

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Old 06-17-2017, 08:38 AM   #14
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Regarding removing points from the underlying envelope when creating automation items -- the thinking was that the points are moved into the automation item container, rather than copied, and the expected use case would be that the user wants to collect a section of an envelope into the container and move it around.

The intended behavior is to add edge points to the underlying envelope where necessary so that the underlying envelope doesn't change just because the automation item was created. So what is shown in post #4 above is a bug, there should be an edge point added to the underlying envelope on the left edge of the new automation item, if automation items are not attached on the left side.

That's why the behavior is how it is, but it doesn't need to be that way. If it is more useful to retain the points underneath new automation items, that's an easy change to make.
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:43 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
So what is shown in post #4 above is a bug, there should be an edge point added to the underlying envelope on the left edge of the new automation item, if automation items are not attached on the left side.
It also happens when AIs are attached from BOTH sides. Make sure that you collect an envelope point that is right on grid, and start collecting AI from that same point in the grid, what jnif showed WILL happen. Edge point doesn't get created on the underlying envelope.


I am not sure if retaining the underlying points after AI is created/collected should be an option. Should it? I think retaining the points is to be expected, instead of removing them, indeed.
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:46 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I was not suggesting that AIs should have a separate lane, or that it should be possible to completelly disable envelopes outside AIs. I agree that those would be nice features, but it is a different discussion, and probably lot of work to implement those.

Instead, I would like the existing AI features to be more user-friendly and logical. And it seems that preserving underlying envelopes when inserting/drawing new AIs would be a big improvement. It seems to be an easy change to the existing features.

The Automation Items feature should not be released if nobody knows why it works the way it works. At least, there should be reasonable use cases for the behaviors of basic operations.

jnif
Agreed
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:54 AM   #17
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I think the current way makes sense - we can create and then copy an AI if we want the initial poi nts to remain, no?
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:56 AM   #18
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That's true, but then when you move the AI, what was left behind is not what was there before the AI.


I guess that then this SHOULD be an option after all? Seeing as we have people from both camps here.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:42 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Regarding removing points from the underlying envelope when creating automation items -- the thinking was that the points are moved into the automation item container, rather than copied, and the expected use case would be that the user wants to collect a section of an envelope into the container and move it around.
This still does not explain why user would want to preserve then envelope ouside the AI, but remove the envelope under the AI. If the intention is to move the section of envelope around, then why would someone want the original location to be replaced with single linear segment?

Edit: I understand now the use case for the current behavior. Here is one simple example:

Here it is useful that the underlying envelope is not preserved.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 06-17-2017 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:39 AM   #20
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If I have several points and draw an automation item around them then I'd expect those points to move with the automation item and not stay behind. It seems the correct behavior to me .
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:04 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I guess that then this SHOULD be an option after all? Seeing as we have people from both camps here.
Yes, the option could be something like this:

Remove points from underlying envelope when inserting automation item:
  • Always (The underlying points are always removed. Edge points are added to the underlying envelope when necessary to preserve the envelope outside the inserted automation item. This is the current behavior.)
  • Only when adding edge points to underlying envelope is not necessary (Edge points are not added to underlying envelope. If the underlying points can be removed without adding edge points to underlying envelope, then it behaves like the "Always" option. If adding edge points to the underlying envelope would be necessary to be able to remove the underlying points, then the underlying points are not removed and the behavior is like the "Never" option. This tries to handle the most common use cases intelligently.)
  • Never (This preserves the underlying envelope always. Edge points are not added to the underlying envelope. This would be the "safe option" where nothing is automatically removed, and user has full control of added envelope points.)

Also a separate action "Envelope: Remove points from automation item's underlying envelope" would be useful.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 06-17-2017 at 02:19 PM. Reason: more detailed description
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:29 AM   #22
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Agreed with the proposal above, fully.


Well, except "Never" option might be problematic. Imagine that you collect points in an AI and your AI start and end are NOT containing any current points. Then edge points SHOULD be added, don't you think?
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:34 AM   #23
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I had several crashes to desktop on OSX after draging an AI from a track to another and editing this dragged AI points.
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Old 06-17-2017, 12:22 PM   #24
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Looking at all this as a new ai user> =a touch of confusion initially..

Can only rea lly add comment on how rea son has done this for years-basic clip sections can be made,but there is always a static underlaying background value.
This background static value can only be tweaked>> non realtime or in edit mode (older versions.)
This can cause super sharp on/off's with device params with clips inserted all over the timeline coming on and offline..

Last edited by Bri1; 06-17-2017 at 12:26 PM. Reason: Guffed
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Old 06-17-2017, 12:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Well, except "Never" option might be problematic. Imagine that you collect points in an AI and your AI start and end are NOT containing any current points. Then edge points SHOULD be added, don't you think?
Do you mean edge points added into inserted AI or into underlying envelope?

In the option proposal I was referring to the edge points added into underlying envelope. I think those are not needed with "Never" option.

Adding edge points into inserted AI should work the same way independent of the proposed option.

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Old 06-17-2017, 09:56 PM   #26
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Is creating additional points when gluing AIs the expected behavior (licecap below)? Personally, I expect AIs/envelopes remain the same as they were before gluing, just glued.

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Old 06-18-2017, 12:58 AM   #27
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Since this is still from day one I guess its not a bug ? (little annoying)

If edit cursor is not IN the time selection it creates automation items outside it (if you just make time selection somewhere and edit cursor is not there you get automation items on unwanted places)

Last edited by Sexan; 06-18-2017 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:13 AM   #28
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Yes, creating AIs via action should be smart. If there is no time selection, create it from edit cursor, if there IS a time selection, create it within time selection and for the length of the time selection. Very annoying.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:32 AM   #29
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:34 AM   #30
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^^^^

Not a bug, those automation items are pooled.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:50 AM   #31
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Maybe AIs addition should be postponed a bit more till all bugs have been ironed out and all use cases have been taken into account? There is no need to hurry! Ok, this time maybe more time has passed between the usual Reaper update schedule, but it's better to have it "good and later" than have it "almost and now".

Btw, I want to say that AIs are a great addition to Reaper!
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:50 AM   #32
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Well it's already been more than 2 months work of on them... They're pretty solid now, just a couple niggles left to iron out, it seems.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:37 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
^^^^

Not a bug, those automation items are pooled.
Why in some cases unselected points move and in other cases they're fixed? It's definitely a bug.
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:08 AM   #34
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Oh THAT. Didn't even notice it, haha.
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:44 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
Is creating additional points when gluing AIs the expected behavior (licecap below)? Personally, I expect AIs/envelopes remain the same as they were before gluing, just glued.

Your Licecap shows two bugs:
1. The last point at the right edge of automation item is not shown before glue. (This bug has been reported earlier for example here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=192634)
2. Gluing the automation item adds a point to the underlying envelope. I can't think of any situation where that would be expected.

However, sometimes gluing has to add points to automation item edges. The resons are explained here http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=17. (There is still a bug that adds an extra overlapping edge point inside glued AI.)

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Old 06-18-2017, 06:22 AM   #36
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Thanks for the detailed explanation, jnif! I hope the bugs can be fixed, at least bug #2.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:41 AM   #37
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I hope someone will do a video tutorial to show the AI feature.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:43 AM   #38
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You bet Kenny Gioia will.
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:51 PM   #39
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Multiple copies of AI in free item positioning mode.

https://goo.gl/ZfXfqV

Overlapping AI when 'Trim content behind automation items..' enabled.

https://goo.gl/cHwj1X

Default point shape...

https://goo.gl/MfE26P
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:39 AM   #40
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More boxes of chocolates for Embass!
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