Old 04-27-2022, 10:12 AM   #1
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 625
Default HOA Reverb Comparisons

I thought that it would be nice to have one thread to compare our experiences and any measurements or research which is done on HOA (and FOA) reverb toolsets.

Algorithmic, convolution, and hybrids are welcome.

My experience is mostly working with the reverb tools from the IEM suite but I also use convolution a lot.

My go-to for production is the Blue Ripple Sound O3A plugins. I think that both IEM and Blue Ripple Sound are working great, and to my ears, the reverb in HOA sounds wonderful, especially when using quality impulse responses.

What is your experience?
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Immersive Audio Labs
www.soundfellas.com
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2022, 05:42 AM   #2
Dodecahedron
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 33
Default

Hello!
For me it depends on the effect i'm after. For modeling room acoustics I tend to use the room encoder and FDN reverb from IEM. I also like the FDN reverb for more generalized, super-enveloping reverbs. And I've also used Noisemakers AmbiVerb (takes up to third order input, reverb is only first order, though) and Dear VR Pro (up to third order, but only mono signals, or stereo folded down to mono, as input). Another thing that I have found is, that I still like to use more traditional mono, stereo or multichannel reverbs in a lot of situations. So I might do something like sending to, say, a 7.x.4 decoder, followed by Cinematic Rooms at 100% wet, and re-encoding that signal into the HOA domain. I would do this in cases, where I may not care so much about room modeling, but rather about a reverb with a specific sound. In music production this is often the case in my experience.
Dodecahedron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2022, 02:13 PM   #3
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

Just copying what I wrote in the other thread so it's in the right place:

"I've mostly been using Noisemakers Ambi Verb HD and 360verb from Audio Ease's 360Pan Suite. While they both support HOA input, the 100% wet convolved reverb signal is also on FOA channels for both--so your wet/dry balance adds in (or passed through) the original HOA signal. The "spread" control also works differently in each. It looks like 360reverb uses some kind of B-format/A-format/B-format process on the impulse responses, so a spread at 0% more closely resembles an A-format pattern, while at 100% it seems more like it's using the W-channel exclusively as an mono/omni input. Ambi Verb HD does something different that results in a reverb that follows and "sticks" to the ambisonic input signals with the spread at 0%, and then (I think?) widens to the W channel at 100%.

I use them both for slightly different things but tend to think that 360reverb sounds more 3D. But I really want a true HOA convolution reverb.

I also started to use Exponential Audio's Symphony and Stratus 3D for multichannel before they broke when I updated to Monterey. Still waiting for the update on that one..."

I also use FdnReverb but usually for more synthetic or ambient situations. The Fade In and Fdn Size are fun to play with and can get very ring-y, but I don't use it for natural sounds.

Despite being mono-input, I like what DearVR Pro is theoretically capable of in terms of the tweak-ability of an algorithmic verb with some of the feeling of an impulse response verb. The presets are helpful. But its current problem with not being able to create true 3D ambisonic reverb tails seems like a genuine mistake... (DearVR says they're looking into it, BTW.)
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2022, 02:32 PM   #4
Dodecahedron
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
I also use FdnReverb but usually for more synthetic or ambient situations. The Fade In and Fdn Size are fun to play with and can get very ring-y, but I don't use it for natural sounds.

Despite being mono-input, I like what DearVR Pro is theoretically capable of in terms of the tweak-ability of an algorithmic verb with some of the feeling of an impulse response verb. The presets are helpful. But its current problem with not being able to create true 3D ambisonic reverb tails seems like a genuine mistake... (DearVR says they're looking into it, BTW.)
Interesting about FDN. I have mostly looked at it as kind of a generic late reflections thing. And good to hear about DearVR. Keep us updated if you hear any further developments.
Also, you wrote, that you use the Noise makers and Audioease reverbs for different things. I have only used the former and generally liked it, though the first order limit is a bit frustrating to me, so I would be very interested if you could elaborate a bit more on when you would use which.
Dodecahedron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2022, 09:15 AM   #5
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodecahedron View Post
...I have only used the former and generally liked it, though the first order limit is a bit frustrating to me, so I would be very interested if you could elaborate a bit more on when you would use which.
I usually reach for 360reverb to be honest, because it I tend to think it sounds more realistic to my ear with a greater sense of "depth," but perhaps at the expense of focus. Ambi Verb HD can be more spatially focused but for whatever reason the reverbs don't quite seem to "pop" with as much 3D detail to my ear. When mixing for binaural, obviously the choice of binaural plugin can also make a huge difference in this, though.
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2022, 05:14 AM   #6
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 625
Default

One of the best convolvers for ambisonics is the Blue Ripple Sound's 3OA Reverb suite, which also includes awesome algorithmic processors, one of those is the MS5 which is out of this world and would be fantastic for music.

They also have a Shaped Convolver which has some nifty tricks in there.

I think I found a little bug when using long IRs but I already sent a full report to them and I'm waiting to hear their results.

To be frank, until the 3OA Reverb suite I have never heard such detail in full 3D from either algorithmic or convolution processors, and their MS5 has all the parameters you want to define your space for artistic musical applications.

look at me, I'm turning into a fanboy! :-P
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Immersive Audio Labs
www.soundfellas.com
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2022, 07:47 AM   #7
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
One of the best convolvers for ambisonics is the Blue Ripple Sound's 3OA Reverb suite
I'd love to hear samples if you ever have a free moment to make some! How are the Blue Ripple reverbs in terms of presets or library of impulse responses? (Are there common post-production settings: car, living room, kitchen, outdoor impulses, etc? And how effective are they at believably evoking these kinds of spaces?) Any thoughts about how they work binaurally vs over speakers?
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2022, 12:34 AM   #8
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 625
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
I'd love to hear samples if you ever have a free moment to make some!
I have only a trial copy that I received from BRS as a courtesy and I cannot share work due to license terms, but when I purchase them soon I'll make some demos soon that I will post in my forum where we discuss immersive audio as a topic in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
How are the Blue Ripple reverbs in terms of presets or library of impulse responses? (Are there common post-production settings: car, living room, kitchen, outdoor impulses, etc?
Their algorithmic reverbs have some presets, n to too many, but those are very good. The plugins have a lot of parameters to set and those presets give you a good start. They also have great open space presets which are great for post.

Their convolution reverbs don't have any presets or supplied impulse response files.

By the way, would you like to test this IR on your workflow and tell me how you like it?

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AoFZ1MP3ewRggrdG...7xf1A?e=pDL7RA

It's one of my own and I would love a second ear :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
And how effective are they at believably evoking these kinds of spaces?
Their algorithmic reverbs do an excellent job, that's why I have chosen them and will get them soon to integrate them into my studio production. Their convolution was tested with my IRs and sounded awesome. There is a glitch that we are trying to solve but I guess that's just a technical issue and I'll be hearing from them soon enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
Any thoughts about how they work binaurally vs over speakers?
As with any other ambisonic content, they depend on the quality of the decoders. I use them together with the Blur Ripple Sound decoders suite which in my opinion is a great solution as it takes away the guesswork and outputs a very nice image to any format you may need (except custom configurations). Their binaural renderer is one of the best, if not the best, I've ever heard. BRS products are serious ambisonic tools and they are doing this before ambisonics was a thing with VR and everything.
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Immersive Audio Labs
www.soundfellas.com
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2022, 03:13 PM   #9
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
Their convolution reverbs don't have any presets or supplied impulse response files.
Ah, that's too bad. I realize BRS isn't dedicated to convolution reverb like Audio Ease or Inspirata Acoustics (and other BRS plugins do unique, irreplaceable things) but including at least a few good HOA impulses from common types of spaces feels important. Especially if HOA IRs add that much more detail.

Quote:
By the way, would you like to test this IR on your workflow and tell me how you like it?

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AoFZ1MP3ewRggrdG...7xf1A?e=pDL7RA

It's one of my own and I would love a second ear :-)
I tried importing this through Ambi Verb HD and was surprised to discover that it *does* read all 16 channels--so Ambi Verb actually isn't FOA only; its impulse library is simply FOA!

What kind of feedback are you looking for? I hear dramatic low pass filtering to the left, and more reverb with higher frequencies and a longer decay to the right. The separation between these two zones is pretty dramatic. Was this a software-generated HOA impulse?
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2022, 03:35 PM   #10
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 625
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
Ah, that's too bad. I realize BRS isn't dedicated to convolution reverb like Audio Ease or Inspirata Acoustics (and other BRS plugins do unique, irreplaceable things) but including at least a few good HOA impulses from common types of spaces feels important. Especially if HOA IRs add that much more detail.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
I tried importing this through Ambi Verb HD and was surprised to discover that it *does* read all 16 channels--so Ambi Verb actually isn't FOA only; its impulse library is simply FOA!
Yes, if I remember correctly this is the case with Ambi Verb HD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
What kind of feedback are you looking for? I hear dramatic low pass filtering to the left, and more reverb with higher frequencies and a longer decay to the right. The separation between these two zones is pretty dramatic.
I like that you hear this, it's what I designed to produce. I would also like to know if you liked the way it spreads in the sphere. If you like, you can also visualize the tail using the IEM EnergyVisualizer. I was going for a dramatic separation which is not possible with simple recordings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
Was this a software-generated HOA impulse?
It's a proprietary production process that features both sampled and modeled data created in a high fidelity internal 3D format we developed at SoundFellas (we call this True3D Audio™) which is later projected or mapped through any format we like. This one was rendered as an Archimedean solid projected on an ambisonic sphere. But the magic mostly happens on the True3D Audio™ phase which takes care of the 3d simulation. I don't want to highjack the Reaper forum by talking about my products, but I would be glad to discuss them at our forum if you like.

Most importantly, did it work ok for you with the Ambi Verb HD? And, did you like it? You should try to rotate the scene, or even better use a head tracker while something is playing through this IR. The feeling is great because that's an expressionistic take on IRs of real spaces with more dramatic contrast to create what I call virtual realism. A pumped-up version of the real within the accepted limits to express reality. Kinda like Disney's rules of animation if you like, but applied to reverb design. ;-)

Thanks for the feedback and your time BPBaker, I appreciate it! :-)
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Immersive Audio Labs
www.soundfellas.com
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.