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Old 02-01-2012, 03:02 PM   #41
Lawrence
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Question: Has any product / DAW that didn't already have it gained support for EuCon since Avid bought them? Just wondering.

It might be the case that they wont allow it anymore, dunno. I mean, Cubase and company already had it didn't they? I know they imply they'll share the protocol but i dont think they actually have to.

Maybe shouldve asked Euhonix some years ago.

I also how much it costs to license, if anything at all.

Last edited by Lawrence; 02-01-2012 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:36 PM   #42
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Yes. I do recall that quite a few more products added EuCon support in the last year. Mostly video stuff, like colour correction software(they have tri-ball artist rig for that).
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:42 AM   #43
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Has it arrived!!!!

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ighlight=eucon
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:48 AM   #44
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Samplitude included it with Pro X, last October. Sequoia already had it.

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Old 04-09-2012, 10:27 PM   #45
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My MCMix and Transport are just sitting there staring at me, while the other engineers enjoy it with Protools! Please hassle Avid for the SDK!

I can't even get it to work with Mackie/HUI. How have the others managed this?

Edit: It seems like the new firmware from Avid breaks the Mackie/HUI support.


Please please please Reaper Devs, I don't want to go back to sluggish, crashaholic Logic to enjoy my Eucon controllers. I'm sure, the few of us running professional setups are willing to pay extra to have this implemented. JCHaydon on Gearslutz seems quite actively involved with the Euphonix side of matters for Avid.

Shall we all pounce on him?

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Old 04-10-2012, 12:27 AM   #46
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April Fools, man.
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:36 AM   #47
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I fell for that one, just a few days after I installed the controllers in the studio.
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:00 AM   #48
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+1 - I would happily pay for this feature. Seriously.
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Old 04-10-2012, 06:04 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splaaat View Post
My MCMix and Transport are just sitting there staring at me, while the other engineers enjoy it with Protools! Please hassle Avid for the SDK!

I can't even get it to work with Mackie/HUI. How have the others managed this?

Edit: It seems like the new firmware from Avid breaks the Mackie/HUI support.


Please please please Reaper Devs, I don't want to go back to sluggish, crashaholic Logic to enjoy my Eucon controllers. I'm sure, the few of us running professional setups are willing to pay extra to have this implemented. JCHaydon on Gearslutz seems quite actively involved with the Euphonix side of matters for Avid.

Shall we all pounce on him?
Hi,

How timely...There may be some hope..but just a flicker.^^ I have a mackie d8b board that does HUI. Since 2008 been trying to get it tighter intergrated w Reaper.

I have tried everything..but I am no coder.

Now the Reaper Hui{partial} csurf does function in a limited way. Does it not for u guys? But I could not use any Reaper learn because of the way the hui protocol is.

Untill now!! Bomes midi translator.




This may not be the exact ticket for u guys, but for me a small miracle!

As far as pararmeter feedback...the HUI csurf stuff all works. Faders..pans..solos..select..banks..transport..tra ck name display, but for further feedback i need to learn some basic coding..easy for some but not for this old fart!^^

I just bought it yesterday so I am thrilled that i got further in 24 hrs than i had in years.

I hope the devs do as u ask... and the Reaper HUI csurf completed would be awesome too..but in case that doesn't come there is hope^^ I think someone with some basic scripting and a little math skillz {that leaves me out for now} could do full support conversion in a couple days. And Bome plans to add osc support..huh?huh?

Guido

notice the sending of specific messages to a specific port. yeah baby!

Last edited by Guido; 04-10-2012 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:39 AM   #50
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Quote:
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As far as pararmeter feedback...the HUI csurf stuff all works. Faders..pans..solos..select..banks..transport..tra ck name display, but for further feedback i need to learn some basic coding..easy for some but not for this old fart!^^
This would indeed have been a welcome miracle.

Only wish Avid didn't break the Mackie/HUI integration.

While it was probably the right thing for Euphonix to do, Avid is a terrible company to go hitch a ride with.

Eucon support would be a huge motivation for people to dump Protools for Reaper as well.
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:23 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
[...] The fader resolution is 1024 steps in most cases[...]
That is seriously lame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Morris;829434[...
EUCON (Extended User Control) High-Speed Ethernet Control Protocol
[...]
EUCON includes the following features and benefits:
[...]
High-resolution (16bit) fader & knob control [...]
So, are all those expensive controllers a bunch of crap, since they're apparently not using a decent resolution while the protocol allows it? (e.g. BCF-2000 already has 10 bit resolution slider encoders afaik).

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[...] OSC simply doesn't count for fader controllers yet because of the lack of such controllers. I'd love for there to be some, and please point them out if you know of any, but they don't seem to stand out enough for anyone like the respected Sound On Sound folks or any site that caters to mixers to mention. [...]
Imho that is a complete non-argument. There is no reason why the 'fader controllers' should be sending OSC natively (conversion to OSC is really trivial). Moreover, if they're controllers, they're not 'faders' - in that case, they're called sliders. You get to define their function, it is not dictated by the arbitrary form factor.

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[...]
I have tried everything..but I am no coder.

[...] I think someone with some basic scripting and a little math skillz {that leaves me out for now} could do full support conversion in a couple days. And Bome plans to add osc support..huh?huh?[...]
Indeed, it looks very possible to make this ourselves. Imho, the coding is not the hard part, it's figuring out the protocol (and atm I have about zero incentives to figure that out, since I don't own any EuCon hardware).

I still see nothing that EuCon can do that I can't do with much cheaper hardware using open protocols (OSC!). But I'm interested to find out what makes EuCon interesting? Is it such great hardware that it's worth every penny? Or is it just the fact that some people have already invested in it, and as such are trapped in a lock-in? What *unique* selling point(s) does it have, if any at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpressure View Post
What is the latest on this?

What is wrong with OSC?

Eucon to OSC middleware perhaps as a solution?

I want to help...
So indeed, wtf is wrong with OSC? EuCon <--> OSC middleware should be easy enough. If not, it probably is only the result of their proprietary protocol, imho a very good reason to *not* support it, but to simply build an adapter to an open protocol.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:42 PM   #52
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OSC<->EuCon, now that would be interesting. You could create a EuCon mapping in TouchOSC for example.


What makes EuCon unique I guess, are a combination of reasons. First is its speed, its support in the professional world and the available hardware. That's just how it is, so far at least. As frustrating as that may seem to some, EuCon is somewhere between profesional consoles and enthusiast/musicians. Nobody on this earth is likely to mix a series or films with anything but at least EuCon, Icon(own protocol and hardware) and/or large-format consoles, which includes Harrison, Euphonix, Neve to name a few.

Most mixers don't build this stuff, though quite a few of us are keen to customize what is there, but if nothing's there, it's likely to get less attention that more accessible paths do. Icons and Harrison are actually pretty easy to learn. No design necessary.
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
I still see nothing that EuCon can do that I can't do with much cheaper hardware using open protocols (OSC!).
But that's not the point, now is it? EuCon is supported by hardware that people want to use with Reaper. The fact that there is some other protocol (OSC) that a bunch of other controllers (cheaper stuff) use is completely irrelevant.

It's a bit like asking "Where can I buy this ATI graphics card model the cheapest?" and getting "OMG! ATI SUCKS! BUY NVIDIA!!!11" as a response
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:45 AM   #54
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Clearly Cakewalk did some work to get EUCON-support inside of Sonar, so why can't Cockos look into this? Or user-created, for that matter?

Cakewalk EUCON plugin: http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/20080104
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:09 AM   #55
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Cockos has already been in contact with Avid, and they've responded. I don't know what the current state of their implementation is, but AFAIK they're trying, and will show it to us when it's ready to be tested.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:59 AM   #56
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But that's not the point, now is it? EuCon is supported by hardware that people want to use with Reaper. The fact that there is some other protocol (OSC) that a bunch of other controllers (cheaper stuff) use is completely irrelevant.
To me it is completely relevant. I am interested to find out if there is any reason to invest in EuCon hardware, given the existing alternatives. If that is considered OT for this particular thread, I'm sorry for derailing it. But I'd argue that it also could be an important factor for the devs to decide if/when they would work on such a feature.

If there is nothing unique about EuCon, a simple OSC<-->EuCon conversion layer would suffice. And if would mainly serve to support 'legacy' investments (especially those of a relatively small number of users), it deserves a much lower priority than otherwise. (And may I also remind you that all the 'legacy' MIDI controller gear is still not supported bidirectionally either; I'd think that is way more important than EuCon in terms of the number of users that would benefit - but the same argument applies here: we can easily roll our own external conversion layer, so imho no urgency to ask Cockos for it).

So imho it is very much the point if there is anything unique about EuCon. If there isn't, I strongly favor creating an adapter over native support for a proprietary protocol. Preferably starting with a generic one that isn't tied specifically to REAPER, possibly also ending there.

I do understand the need for compatibility, and am quite willing to help achieve it where I can. Tell me how EuCon works exactly, and I may whip up an OSC<-->EuCon conversion thingie. But apparently nobody except Avid can (or, more likely, is allowed to) tell us that...

Quote:
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OSC<->EuCon, now that would be interesting.[...]
For (potential) owners of those devices, indeed. I'm pretty sure that the owners of the protocol feel slightly different. Which means that it makes a *lot* of sense for Avid to be stonewalling all of us. If they'd hire me as a business consultant, It's probably exactly what I'd advise them to do as well. NDA's for a select few, the mushroom treatment for everyone else. Classic monopoly exploitation 101 all the way.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:06 AM   #57
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Cockos has already been in contact with Avid, and they've responded. I don't know what the current state of their implementation is, but AFAIK they're trying, and will show it to us when it's ready to be tested.
That's good to know. I'll keep my hopes up - I'm guessing there is a license fee involved so a pro/con-evaluation is due at some point (by Cockos).

Quote:
If there is nothing unique about EuCon, a simple OSC<-->EuCon conversion layer would suffice.
I guess what's unique about it is it's support from major hardware manufacturers. While there might not be anything "magical" on the technical side, it's this point that is the only relevant bit. As long as Mackie, Yamaha etc. support EuCon but not OSC, that is what matters.

That said: I don't really care _how_ it's implemented (plugin, adapter/bridge software, whatever), as long as I can go to the store, buy any major-vendor control surface and have it work in Reaper with more than just PLAY/STOP.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:29 AM   #58
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I guess what's unique about it is it's support from major hardware manufacturers.
That support is completely unrelated from how EuCon is implemented from the DAW's side. It can be done with OSC<->EuCon conversion layer most definitely. So you should appreciate OSC because it's going to make EuCon work with Reaper, in due time.
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:27 AM   #59
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That support is completely unrelated from how EuCon is implemented from the DAW's side.
Again: technical implementation is irrelevant -- the only question is if I'm going to be able to use a EuCon-based controller with Reaper.
Quote:
It can be done with OSC<->EuCon conversion layer most definitely. So you should appreciate OSC because it's going to make EuCon work with Reaper, in due time.
Which is exactly what I said above.

I guess there are so many OSC-soapboxes around here that it's hard to make the point, so here it goes again: I don't have anything against OSC, but saying "OSC is better!" is an invalid point if we are discussing EuCon-based controllers, in the same way that saying "I really like italian white wine" if we're at Burger King serves no purpose. Sure, it's not untrue, but it doesn't help us in the slightest
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:31 AM   #60
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We can only do one thing and that's let the Cockos folks figure this out.
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:41 AM   #61
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Quote:
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[...] saying "OSC is better!" is an invalid point if we are discussing EuCon-based controllers, in the same way that saying "I really like italian white wine" if we're at Burger King serves no purpose. Sure, it's not untrue, but it doesn't help us in the slightest
It's not an invalid point if we can hack up an adapter. Then OSC is about fixing you up with that bottle of great italian wine right there in the BK, for free.
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Old 04-13-2012, 09:38 AM   #62
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It's not an invalid point if we can hack up an adapter. Then OSC is about fixing you up with that bottle of great italian wine right there in the BK, for free.
I would like nothing better, but the state of things are as follows: the controllers use EuCon. Reaper doesn't support EuCon.

While it would be GREAT to have a way to turn EuCon <--> OSC, so that everything works and it's all puppies and sunshine and free champagne for everyone, that reality does not exist.

So, as I've stated repeatedly: the fact that something else exists is neither a solution to the problem, nor relevant.

Not that this stops you from pursuing buiding such a bridge, go right ahead!
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:35 AM   #63
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I am a new owner of an Avid Artist Mix and Transport. I would like to see any sort of implementation regarding the EuCon protocol with Reaper. Doing so would really make my life easier as I thought I would be able to use this in Reaper with the Mackie Control Emulation.
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:21 AM   #64
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Some folks have managed to get that MCU or HUI emulation going with Reaper.

Perhaps you'll find some information in this thread :

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=23260

AFAIK, Cockos is trying to get EuCon support going, but from my experience, they'll only show it to us when they're ready.
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:29 AM   #65
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Thanks for directing me to this...I'll check it out.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:51 AM   #66
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Enlighten me - people who own EuCon devices - on the full benefit. I mean, I can look at the $20k EuCon controller and clearly see the power of that device over most any USB midi controller but do most people here actually own that high level of hardware?

Is this mostly just about making the Artist Series controllers fully useful? That I understand, if the MCU emulation isn't taking full advantage of that device.

The resolution thing has always been a bit iffy for me given that you can manually get 0.1 db changes with automation and similar but I assume with EuCon you'd potentially get much smaller physical fader movements?

Thanks. Don't own anything EuCon so consider me mostly uneducated... as relates to actual use.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:59 AM   #67
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Quote:
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Enlighten me - people who own EuCon devices - on the full benefit. I mean, I can look at the $20k EuCon controller and clearly see the power of that device over most any USB midi controller but do most people here actually own that high level of hardware?

Is this mostly just about making the Artist Series controllers fully useful? That I understand, if the MCU emulation isn't taking full advantage of that device.

The resolution thing has always been a bit iffy for me given that you can manually get 0.1 db changes with automation and similar but I assume with EuCon you'd potentially get much smaller physical fader movements?

Thanks. Don't own anything EuCon so consider me mostly uneducated... as relates to actual use.
I'd love to hear more details about this as well, as I'm quite skeptical but hopefully still somewhat open-minded.

FWIW, the cheap BCF-2000 has 10 bit resolution on its motorized faders (i.e. 1024 steps). I currently use the BCR-2000's rotaries at 14 bits (i.e. 16383 steps resolution). Any marginal difference in resolution above that surely can not explain a $20K minus a hundred bucks price difference.

What is the (ballpark) price range of this Artist series, btw?
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:03 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Some folks have managed to get that MCU or HUI emulation going with Reaper.

Perhaps you'll find some information in this thread :

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=23260

AFAIK, Cockos is trying to get EuCon support going, but from my experience, they'll only show it to us when they're ready.
Guido did some digging and found this excellent documentation. After looking at it for a bit, I am pretty sure a HUI <--> OSC/REAPER conversion patch is quite doable. Just plain old MIDI all the way.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:05 AM   #69
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Well, the $20k device is a total controller. You won't find anything like it at Guitar Center for $1k. I mean, it can control multiple DAWs at the same time and I imagine the buttons on it are pretty expensive to build. I've watched various vids and it's ... nice.

It's a far, far class away from the Artist series, or any midi controller, from what I can tell.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:25 AM   #70
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In my dreams, after I make love to Halle Berry and her eyes roll back into her head just before she has a pleasure based seizure and buys me yet another Ferrari, I go mix on one of these... . Only $132k.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/System5MC-32/

The $20k part is just the middle section.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:05 AM   #71
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Quote:
the $20k EuCon controller
That number seems completely random. There are $1-2k controllers that _support the EuCon-protocol_, which is vastly more relevant.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:23 AM   #72
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That number seems completely random. There are $1-2k controllers that _support the EuCon-protocol_, which is vastly more relevant.
That still leaves a gap of $900 that I can't really explain in terms of differences in the features that the protocol supports over, say, REAPER's OSC support, some arbitrary conversion middleware, and some cheap ass generic (MIDI, etc.) controllers. Is it just about superior build quality and support? That seems a plausible explanation on its own, given that they are targeted at the high end of the market, where such qualities are well appreciated and gladly paid for.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:54 AM   #73
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It's features out of the box.

The user doesn't have to do anything to get the basic functionality beyond double-clicking an installer and picking the controller in the host.

There's lots of customization with EuCon, since it's like a universal application controller as well. It can send key commands to apps so it's good for more than direct host support, change what it does depending on which application is in focus, automatically works with multiple controllers of different types.

It's pre-built you might say, with customization options to boot. I'd love to have a $15000 MC5 Pro module, or even just an Artist Control with it's configurable soft-key touchscreen.

Granted you could build a lot of this with OSC, but it takes specialized knowledge and time to develop, setup and use. There's no easy customization here as it is with EuCon where everything has been designed to be easy for the user to setup as well. The learning curve includes very little in terms of making use of the hardware. The methods to setup custom softkeys is straightforward and requires no API and knowledge of a command structure or text file editing.

And that's worth a lot of time and thus inconvenience and thus money.

And it's the reason Icons are good controllers too, never mind that they're designed for just one DAW though.

Should Reaper get automation features, I may try to use an iPad or Android tablet and setup OSC with that, because it is the ultimate in flexibility, but I get almost all I need from an Artist Control and Mix in combination with Protools 10 that I need to mix a show, right now.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:16 PM   #74
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That still leaves a gap of $900 that I can't really explain in terms of differences in the features that the protocol supports over, say, REAPER's OSC support, some arbitrary conversion middleware, and some cheap ass generic (MIDI, etc.) controllers.
It's usually not just a controller, but a fully-fledged mixer unit/FireWire soundcard. Also -- again -- it's about the support for the protocol that's important as well. You seem to keep insisting that EuCon is a ripoff, but yet you refuse to acknowledge any of it's platform support, which is the whole point

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Is it just about superior build quality and support?
The ancient plastic Behringer-thing is probably of a lower build-quality than a $1000 Yamaha firewire mixer, yes.
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Old 06-13-2012, 12:39 PM   #75
peterpressure
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Any updates on this topic?
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:46 PM   #76
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No talk yet. Cockos usually jumps out from behind the tree and yells "TRY THIS!", and all of a sudden we have EuCon support.

So hang back and see what happens is all I ever do when it comes to managing my expectations. Of course you have to jump in and test it like a banshee when it does pop up.
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:16 PM   #77
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I voted on the other page but I wanted to leave evidence here that I would be thrilled to have eucon support. I use logic 9 for most of my own work and pt10 for projects that come in on pt. I have a setup of artist series that I have gotten extremely used to in workflow. I have been demoing reaper and am extremely impressed- in that I would consider making it my main daw if it had eucon. Until it has eucon I cannot seriously consider it. Avid crippled the mackie support in the current eucon build so I cannot even get fader moves in reaper.

So count this as my vote and a potential license sold!
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:58 AM   #78
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Hoping this is still alive? I have reaper sitting there ready to go but wont give up the workflow of Eucon or the artist controllers i have. would love to see this fully implemented someday
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:34 AM   #79
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It's alive. Cockos has talked to Avid about the EuCon SDK. We don't know when they'll have anything to show us.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:15 AM   #80
Geoff Waddington
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Hmmmm...

Quote:
Audio Engineering Society
Convention Paper
Presented at the 121st Convention
2006 October 5–8 San Francisco, CA, USA

EuCon: An Object-Oriented Protocol for
Connecting Control Surfaces to Software
Applications

Just read the EuConn AES presentation, I hope they have improved the spec since then, although they do say this:

Quote:
The protocol has been deployed since October 2005 and can
currently control a wide variety of commercial
applications.
As a software professional, I'd like to have seen more flexibility.


As an example:

Quote:
Physical control surface text displays come in a variety
of text widths. Because of this, EuCon’s string value
type consists of three separate strings - a short string for
display on four character physical displays; a medium
length string for eight character displays; and a long
string for longer length displays such as those found on
active matrix screens. This allows the string to be
properly displayed on a variety of control surface text
displays.
What if you have a 6 character display ?
Why only 3 string types?

Perhaps they should have done the folloqwing:

Allow for N string types.
Allow each type to set a maximum.


Everyone keeps harping on the 127 bit limitation of MIDI.

EVERY implementation I know of (including the Reaper stock one, Klinke's, and mine) uses 14 bit resolution (16,384 in decimal) for faders -- using 2 MIDI messages.

NO implementation I know of restricts the rotaries to 127 bit, here's why:

A rotary is basically 2 switches, one in the plus direction and one in the minus direction, there is NO IMPLIED RESOLUTION, it is up to the software.
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Last edited by Geoff Waddington; 01-29-2013 at 05:48 AM.
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