Reaper meters "red light" > 0 dBFS

[bezusheist]

yes, i agree with leaving a little "headroom". i generally use anywhere from -3 to -0.5 dBFS, depending on the release medium.
i was just posting a funny example of why being anywhere even close to zero may not be a good idea. at least when dealing with sample peak meters.
that pic shows that Reaper's red light isn't going on (YEAH!)...but the audio file playing has a true peak of +7.5 dBFS...(OUCH!)

[lachrimae]

You shouldn't ever touch your Master fader. Leave it a 0dB
Put a Volume JS on the first slot on your master and adjust it's gain fader instead.


1) Turn off Sticky Clip Indicators
2) Turn on Reset meter peak indicators on play/seek
3) Set Track default fader gain to -6dB. If you're still clipping on a regular basis (enough to be annoyed by the red clip light), set it to -10dB (offset the lower Master level using the gain fader on the Master, if needed).
4) Optionally, turn off pre-fader metering and use a toggle to check it when needed. If you choose to leave it on, no problem. You are not gain staging properly if you are anywhere near clipping.
5) Optionally, change Meter Max. Value to -5dB or similar so that you're less inclined to mix so close to 0dB on anything but the Master.

You should not be clipping with any regularity. If so, your inputs, items and/or VSTi are too hot and improperly gain-staged.
-If items are causing clipping, create a short-cut for the SWS action "Normalize loudness of selected items to -23 LUFS" in order to quickly set a good starting point for proper gain staging.
-If VSTi are causing clipping, turn it's output down.
-If Inputs are causing clipping, turn down your interface inputs.

There should be no need for limiters or resetting of clip lights on tracks.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

You should be limiting to a level lower than that anyway, -.001 is a ludicrous ceiling. It should be more like -0.5 dB (at max -.2) anyway to avoid ISPs AND still achieve commercial loudness so I must be misunderstanding what you are saying. I totally agree that you want 0=0 with the indicator but from any practical mixing/mastering perspective, -0.001 isn't a ceiling anyone should be using. If we hit that and it fools us that we clipped that's one thing but that should never occur when we master to the correct ceiling which is far lower.

First article I found searching for "peak clip light indicator" says this.

"The meters show signal levels in dBFS (decibels below full scale), where a level of 0 dB is the maximum amplitude possible before clipping occurs. Yellow peak indicators remain for 1.5 seconds so you can easily determine peak amplitude.

If amplitude is too low, sound quality is reduced; if amplitude is too high, clipping occurs and produces distortion. The red clip‑indicator to the right of the meters lights up when levels exceed the maximum of 0 dB."

A yellow "caution" light that remains for 1.5 seconds and a red clip indicator that only happens when levels exceed 0db is exactly how I would prefer it to work.

I don't think hitting right at or below 0db is too hot, and is the way I've worked with audio since the mid 70s. Zero or below is not a clip.

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[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by lachrimae

1) Turn off Sticky Clip Indicators

Is there a setting like this for tracks?

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[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by bezusheist

that pic shows that Reaper's red light isn't going on (YEAH!)...but the audio file playing has a true peak of +7.5 dBFS...(OUCH!)

Gotcha but not sure how that could happen. You guys are keeping me busy.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

I don't think hitting right at or below 0db is too hot.

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It isn't technically but it is as a mixing practice in a DAW, as I showed it doesn't actually clip but overall you shouldn't be running peaks above roughly -6 or so, or some margin lower than you are now; if you were following that, we wouldn't be having this conversation, you wouldn't be putting limiters on which by their very nature distort the waveform if they invoke and if they weren't being invoked they don't need to be there to begin with - and.... your mixes would be just fine if not better. Even if it doesn't actually clip you can use that meter to say "I'm mixing too loud" because you are from a practical perspective.

Consider this, if you did all of this in analog you would already be at the top of the scale and you'd rightfully adjust accordingly but via reduction instead of addition (generally speaking). What you are actually doing is ignoring all that and filling up the headroom simply because it is there, there is tons of headroom, leave some so you can do your work, that is what it is for and doing so does not result in near clipping, not sure how else I can explain that while being both sincere and helpful.

I think most with ITB technical knowledge will tell you this (I see someone else just did). Select all those faders and pull everything down a few dB or follow lachrimae's suggestions.

If amplitude is too low, sound quality is reduced; if amplitude is too high, clipping occurs and produces distortion.

In your situation ^this is wrong or better stated "too low" is nowhere remotely close to where you are going to end up by reducing your track levels by a handful of dB. You can find and trust many of the users here, (smarter than me) to sufficiently explain why you should not be using that statement as a reason to mix the way you are mixing under your present set of conditions and not need to google various explanations that may or may not be correct or apply to you.

[bezusheist]

as much as i hate the word, i guess i have to use it...
inter sample peaks...aka true peaks.
the file was clipped to -0.001 dBFS, but the "analog" waveform interpolation shows the (approximated) real story...

the white dots are the samples, the blue line is the interpolated waveform.



there is a slight chance that that file may clip some DACs.

on a side note...Reaper has the new sinc interpolation waveform view, which is pretty nice to have, but imo you should now have the option to switch the meters to "true peak" meters because now your waveform view doesn't coincide with your meters...:P

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by bezusheist

as much as i hate the word, i guess i have to use it...
inter sample peaks...aka true peaks.
the file was clipped to -0.001 dBFS, but the "analog" waveform interpolation shows the (approximated) real story...

Which is where the technical advice for using a -0.5 dB ceiling comes from, to give a small amount of headroom for ISPs. I know you understand but just so everyone knows. I agree it would be cool if Reaper could include ISPs on the master.

[haervo]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

...
If amplitude is too low, sound quality is reduced;
...

-

Thats by far not true with 64bit floating point internal processing. May have a little bit of truth to it when you had only 16bit fixed processing.

Edit: I quoted before reading the whole thread. Karbo adressed this already.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by haervo

Thats by far not true with 64bit floating point internal processing. May have a little bit of truth to it when you had only 16bit fixed processing.

Exactly. Thank you.

[karbomusic]

This just in...

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

It isn't technically but it is as a mixing practice in a DAW, as I showed it doesn't actually clip but overall you shouldn't be running peaks above roughly -6 or so, or some margin lower than you are now; if you were following that, we wouldn't be having this conversation, you wouldn't be putting limiters on which by their very nature distort the waveform if they invoke and if they weren't being invoked they don't need to be there to begin with - and.... your mixes would be just fine if not better. Even if it doesn't actually clip you can use that meter to say "I'm mixing too loud" because you are from a practical perspective.

So I've spent the last hour and a half trying my current project with no W1 limiters on anything. I've finally got the levels re-balanced so the mix is essentially what it was before, and the first thing I am noticing is that the punch is lacking from what I originally had. Drums sound like they aren't being smacked any more, as if I were a light and breezy jazz player, and the bass sounds like it is lightly being plucked, even though I was really picking it hard with one of those big triangular Fender heavy picks. I can't pick bass strings worth a crap with my fingers.

The other attribute I'm noticing is that the definition seems lacking now, like it is a soft and out of focus sound, where before it was tight, and distinct. Things sound run together, like when I do a fast roll down the four toms, it's more of a blur than distinct individual hits.

On a positive note, the banjo part I play at the very start of the song that is all by itself before any other parts come in, sounds nice and clear.

I'm going to experiment some more with it. Everybody got a problem with me using the new Waves DBX compressor I just bought on a lot of the tracks? Hehe, it was already being used on bass, guitars, and drums, and I'm keeping it, so don't answer that last question!!! <g>

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[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

So I've spent the last hour and a half trying my current project with no W1 limiters on anything. I've finally got the levels re-balanced so the mix is essentially what it was before, and the first thing I am noticing is that the punch is lacking from what I originally had. Drums sound like they aren't being smacked any more, as if I were a light and breezy jazz player, and the bass sounds like it is lightly being plucked, even though I was really picking it hard with one of those big triangular Fender heavy picks. I can't pick bass strings worth a crap with my fingers.

The other attribute I'm noticing is that the definition seems lacking now, like it is a soft and out of focus sound, where before it was tight, and distinct. Things sound run together, like when I do a fast roll down the four toms, it's more of a blur than distinct individual hits.

All things being equal, bringing the faders down alone won't change the sound in that way, the exception is any sends and potential routing/folders etc may be affected. And/or if the limiters were limiting enough you'd notice that. Probably better if you just try your next song/mix that way from the getgo and see where you end up instead of trying to convert your existing mix.

I'm going to experiment some more with it. Everybody got a problem with me using the new Waves DBX compressor I just bought on a lot of the tracks? Hehe, it was already being used on bass, guitars, and drums, and I'm keeping it, so don't answer that last question!!! <g>

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OK, I won't. Actually, to be fair, my complaint about the limiters was only about using them on every track for no other reason than to not see the peak light because peak light bad, if you are getting a sonic benefit from them or any other VST, then use whatever the heck you want.

Actually I'm not understanding how those limiters on inserts of tracks have any chance of stopping those track's peak lights from illuminating when raising faders, they are pre fader and the volume knob has no effect on limiting because it's after the limiter (the item volume knob does though). I'm starting to wonder if these limiters were doing more sonically and less visually than I thought they were.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

All things being equal, bringing the faders down alone won't change the sound in that way, the exception is any sends and potential routing/folders etc may be affected. And/or if the limiters were limiting enough you'd notice that. Probably better if you just try your next song/mix that way from the get go and see where you end up instead of trying to convert your existing mix.



OK, I won't. Actually, to be fair, my complaint about the limiters was only about using them on every track for no other reason than to not see the peak light because peak light bad, if you are getting a sonic benefit from them or any other VST, then use whatever the heck you want.

Actually I'm not understanding how those limiters on inserts of tracks have any chance of stopping those tracks from peaking when raising faders, they are pre fader and the volume knob has no effect of limiting because its after the limiter (the item volume knob does though).

The limiters were letting me push the mix a little harder, giving it more pressure. Something I note also and have known for a long time is that with drums especially, the more compression or limiting they go through, the more the ambience stands out. I think it is because they have such a fast attack and decay that what follows (which is room and the ring of the heads) gets boosted. To a certain degree, that is a desirable sound for me.

A snare drum that goes "bap... bap... bap..." vs one that goes "prang! prang! prang!" is about the best way I can describe it in words. One sounds kind of like you are hitting a cardboard box, and the other is animated and full of life. I believe the same is true, although less obvious with other instruments.

I bought that Waves DBX160 while it was on sale last month, primarily because I used to own the real hardware when I had my 1" Ampex AG440B-8 studio. That little box could make vocals bark and drums jump out of the speakers. I actually had two instances where people who had recorded demos in my studio, insisted that I be present to produce them when they paid the big bucks to go into a 2" 24-Track studio. The engineers hated it when the bass player asked me to tell him what that thing was I ran his Rickenbacker through at my studio. He was referring to the DBX160. :-)

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[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Actually I'm not understanding how those limiters on inserts of tracks have any chance of stopping those track's peak lights from illuminating when raising faders, they are pre fader and the volume knob has no effect on limiting because it's after the limiter (the item volume knob does though). I'm starting to wonder if these limiters were doing more sonically and less visually than I thought they were.

They don't. Just like the 24x8x2 mixer I used in my 1" 8-Track analog studio, I always set the channel volumes to 0db and work higher up the chain to balance the mix. Trim control, compression, and limiting is how I've done my mixes for the last 40+ years. I only ever used individual track volumes to duck parts while making a 2-Track master. I use envelopes now to achieve the same thing. Everything is at unity gain at the start of a song, but as it rolls, ducking will happen to allow various parts to take the spotlight for a moment. Prolly not the digital recording institute's approved way of doing things, but that's how I roll. <g>

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[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Actually I'm not understanding how those limiters on inserts of tracks have any chance of stopping those tracks from peaking when raising faders, they are pre fader and the volume knob has no effect on limiting because it's after the limiter (the item volume knob does though).

Pre-Fader Metering. I can't imagine why anybody would ever want or need that, but apparently...

I actually can't believe I read this whole thread, but there were a couple things I wanted to comment on:

---I am kind of surprised that the red light comes on below exactly 0dbfs. Never noticed it before now. That should probably be fixed, though it has honestly never really bothered me. I think I would prefer have it come on at 0, rather >0, but again, don't think it much matters.

---Can somebody please tell me what the hell they think the difference is between -0dbfs and +0dbfs? 0 is 0 and really neither positive nor negative.

---Look at this picture again:


Notice how Display offset, Display gain, and Red threshold are all inside that box labeled "RMS metering settings". Pretty sure that means it only applies to the RMS meters and therefor has nothing at all to do with the subject of this thread.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Pre-Fader Metering.

Yea but I thought glennbo has been doing it this way forever not just recently? [never mind, he's using item gain]

I actually can't believe I read this whole thread, but there were a couple things I wanted to comment on:

Congrats.

---Can somebody please tell me what the hell they think the difference is between -0dbfs and +0dbfs? 0 is 0 and really neither positive nor negative.

If memory serves, the only thing I know of is there is no such thing as >0dBFS in digital so many apps decide to peak at zero. A different flavor of this subject goes back to 2008:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=26596

---Look at this picture again:

Ah, yes, thank you for pointing that out.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

---Can somebody please tell me what the hell they think the difference is between -0dbfs and +0dbfs? 0 is 0 and really neither positive nor negative.

It's the little symbol before the numeral zero!!!

What is 20 times -0 ???

Well, it's obviously less than 20 times +0, isn't it? <GGG>

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[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

Trim control, compression, and limiting is how I've done my mixes for the last 40+ years.

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^That's fine, doesn't hurt to know that though.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Yea but I thought glennbo has been doing it this way forever not just recently?

If I open my current project, with the W1 limiters, and disable them, this is what I see. The red stuff never goes away until I stop playback. Also, it is post fader metering in my project, because turning a track's volume to zero, results in a meter reading of zero.



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[Judders]

Wow, who would have thought that 1/1000th of a dB could provide so much heated debate!?

@Glennbo: You're thinking like you're still using analogue gear. You're not! As Karbo said, any loss of punch to your mix is due to those limiters, not because of the reduction in level (as long as you turn your monitors up to compensate). If you like the sound of every channel being limited, then go for it, but you can safely set the threshold or output gain much lower and get the same sound as long as you gain stage it right. You can slam and smash compressors and limiters all day without ever going anywhere near 0dBFS in digital, that "pressure" has nothing to do with level in digital.

@kevinwayne: You're mixing too hot because you're gain staging is all messed up. My advice is to use item gain or a gain plugin to create your "static mix" ("static" because there's no automation yet, and not using the faders yet because they have most throw range for automation at unity gain). With your master fader at unity gain (0.0dB) you should shoot for having the highest peak well below 0dBFS (I usually go for between -8dB to -14dB) - this is on your master output channel, the channels feeding it will be considerably lower.

Really, -0.001dBFS is so close to +0.001dBFS as not to matter at all.

[kevinwayne]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

And yet I posted the exact same info earlier and it was inadvertently ignored

[kevinwayne]

Originally Posted by Judders

@kevinwayne: You're mixing too hot because you're gain staging is all messed up. My advice is to use item gain or a gain plugin to create your "static mix" ("static" because there's no automation yet, and not using the faders yet because they have most throw range for automation at unity gain). With your master fader at unity gain (0.0dB) you should shoot for having the highest peak well below 0dBFS (I usually go for between -8dB to -14dB) - this is on your master output channel, the channels feeding it will be considerably lower

Wait a minute... How is it you're assuming that I'm using the Faders on the tracks themselves and not using the Item Gain or the Gain on the plugins or Airwindows Purest Gain? [Shameless plug from a supporter ]

Is that what I'm hearing you say? Because the way I get the input sources that are happening "Pre-Fader" turned down so they aren't peaking is to ...turn them down. In fact, I'm also bypassing ALL the Efx to check if the item input itself isn't showing red without the Efx providing a gate [if they are, I pull them down further.]

I try not to even bother with the track fader until I do all the other stuff, and then I check the VST's to make sure they are getting enough input to matter [for example, is the compressor getting a hot enough signal to actually compress?] Then I use the Track Faders themselves to adjust the levels in the mix.

So Idk if that's what you thought I was doing or not, but I wanted to be sure we're on the same page, here

[bezusheist]

Using 24 bit integer as an example....
(Range of values)

-8,388,607 to 8,388,607 = -0 dBFS
-8,388,608 to 8,388,607 = 0 dBFS

The difference is "symmetry"

[kevinwayne]

Originally Posted by lachrimae

You shouldn't ever touch your Master fader. Leave it a 0dB
Put a Volume JS on the first slot on your master and adjust it's gain fader instead.


1) Turn off Sticky Clip Indicators
2) Turn on Reset meter peak indicators on play/seek
3) Set Track default fader gain to -6dB. If you're still clipping on a regular basis (enough to be annoyed by the red clip light), set it to -10dB (offset the lower Master level using the gain fader on the Master, if needed).
4) Optionally, turn off pre-fader metering and use a toggle to check it when needed. If you choose to leave it on, no problem. You are not gain staging properly if you are anywhere near clipping.
5) Optionally, change Meter Max. Value to -5dB or similar so that you're less inclined to mix so close to 0dB on anything but the Master.

You should not be clipping with any regularity. If so, your inputs, items and/or VSTi are too hot and improperly gain-staged.
-If items are causing clipping, create a short-cut for the SWS action "Normalize loudness of selected items to -23 LUFS" in order to quickly set a good starting point for proper gain staging.
-If VSTi are causing clipping, turn it's output down.
-If Inputs are causing clipping, turn down your interface inputs.

There should be no need for limiters or resetting of clip lights on tracks.

Okay thanks for all of that, I have a couple of questions:

Set Track default fader gain to -6dB

Are you talking about "Volume Pan Faders - Volume Fader Range" Under "Options > Preferences > Track control panel settings?" That's not allowing me to set it lower than +0.

change Meter Max. Value to -5dB or similar

Is that under same location, "VU Meters - Max value (dB)? That was already set to -10~! 0.o

Again thanks, I just wanted to be sure I was looking at the same things you were.

[haervo]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

... but it isn't like she's ripping her clothes off or anything.

That would be an awkward thing over an electric circuit, wouldnt it?

[bezusheist]

Originally Posted by Judders

Wow, who would have thought that 1/1000th of a dB could provide so much heated debate!?

just wait until you see the reaction when i show everyone that Reaper's auto-mute is actually 0.001 picoseconds off...

[kevinwayne]

Just wanted to mention that doing this:

Originally Posted by lachrimae

"Normalize loudness of selected items to -23 LUFS" in order to quickly set a good starting point for proper gain staging

Caused all of my levels to boost really LOUD. I suspect that wasn't the goal of what you were aiming at? Yeah and I went through & turned off the Efx on individual tracks to check the levels, and Lo & Behold many of 'em were Bangin' Red again~! 0.o

I have had that custom Right-Click Menu option for a while now, and I've never known it to always lower thing like it is apparently assumed.

Fortunately I saved it as a separate project so I could get back to where things were easily enough. I started going through trying to re-set the levels on the items to get them back to not clipping, and the adjustments I had to make were so stark that I just gave up & went back to the older project where they weren't clipping! lol

[Judders]

Originally Posted by kevinwayne

Wait a minute... How is it you're assuming that I'm using the Faders on the tracks themselves and not using the Item Gain or the Gain on the plugins or Airwindows Purest Gain? [Shameless plug from a supporter ]

Is that what I'm hearing you say? Because the way I get the input sources that are happening "Pre-Fader" turned down so they aren't peaking is to ...turn them down. In fact, I'm also bypassing ALL the Efx to check if the item input itself isn't showing red without the Efx providing a gate [if they are, I pull them down further.]

I try not to even bother with the track fader until I do all the other stuff, and then I check the VST's to make sure they are getting enough input to matter [for example, is the compressor getting a hot enough signal to actually compress?] Then I use the Track Faders themselves to adjust the levels in the mix.

So Idk if that's what you thought I was doing or not, but I wanted to be sure we're on the same page, here

Chill man, I wasn't presuming anything, just trying to give thorough information, even if some of it was redundant to you, for the benefit of others who might read the thread

Why are you using pre-fader metering? There is no difference between that and bypassing all fx. Once you have fx instantiated, or use a fader, it doesn't make sense to me to use pre-fader metering.

As for feeding level-dependant plugins, such as compressors, I can't think of any that don't have input gain controls, and almost all of them have output gain controls as well. If you are using one that doesn't, then you still have the option of attenuating with a gain plugin afterwards.

Somewhere in your gain staging, something ain't right: you're getting clip warnings; Q.E.D.

Even if it isn't affecting the audio, what with floating point integers and all, it certainly seems to be pissing you off visually! So, I promise you, it is easy to solve, and you need nothing more than simple peak meters, no need for LUFS or any of that fancy stuff

[kevinwayne]

Originally Posted by Judders

Chill man, I wasn't presuming anything, just trying to give thorough information, even if some of it was redundant to you, for the benefit of others who might read the thread

Why are you using pre-fader metering? There is no difference between that and bypassing all fx. Once you have fx instantiated, or use a fader, it doesn't make sense to me to use pre-fader metering.

As for feeding level-dependant plugins, such as compressors, I can't think of any that don't have input gain controls, and almost all of them have output gain controls as well. If you are using one that doesn't, then you still have the option of attenuating with a gain plugin afterwards.

Somewhere in your gain staging, something ain't right: you're getting clip warnings; Q.E.D.

Even if it isn't affecting the audio, what with floating point integers and all, it certainly seems to be pissing you off visually! So, I promise you, it is easy to solve, and you need nothing more than simple peak meters, no need for LUFS or any of that fancy stuff

AFAICS, Pre-Fader metering shows me where the audio actually is "at", rather than what it would be Post-Fader, which would be where I'd be mixing if there wasn't Pre-Fader metering.

Right now it seems everything is where it should be as far as the individual tracks go. Where I'm getting peak warnings is on the Master channel. Even when SPAN is showing levels quite a bit lower. From where I sit, it's something Cockos needs to address and fix the issue.

[kevinwayne]

Originally Posted by Judders

Also, didn't mean to come off like I was upset or anything, just was trying to make sure I didn't communicate something that was confusing people earlier.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by kevinwayne

AFAICS, Pre-Fader metering shows me where the audio actually is "at", rather than what it would be Post-Fader, which would be where I'd be mixing if there wasn't Pre-Fader metering.

Right now it seems everything is where it should be as far as the individual tracks go. Where I'm getting peak warnings is on the Master channel. Even when SPAN is showing levels quite a bit lower. From where I sit, it's something Cockos needs to address and fix the issue.

Post fader metering shows you what is being fed to your master bus. Seeing as that is clipping, it would make sense to have your meters show it.

Cold you post a screenshot of SPAN next to your master meter?

[Judders]

Originally Posted by kevinwayne

Also, didn't mean to come off like I was upset or anything, just was trying to make sure I didn't communicate something that was confusing people earlier.

No problem

[lachrimae]

Originally Posted by kevinwayne

Are you talking about "Volume Pan Faders - Volume Fader Range" Under "Options > Preferences > Track control panel settings?" That's not allowing me to set it lower than +0.

No, this one is over in the Track/Send defaults:

Originally Posted by kevinwayne

Is that under same location, "VU Meters - Max value (dB)? That was already set to -10~! 0.o

Hmm, that is very strange. I'm pretty sure the default value there is +6dB

Originally Posted by kevinwayne

Just wanted to mention that doing this caused all of my levels to boost really LOUD. I suspect that wasn't the goal of what you were aiming at?

Damn, my apologies... I thought that command set to Momentary LUFS and not Integrated, but I was wrong.
So... I made what I thought was going to be a short video to explain that (for quick/rough gain staging) you may be better off using "Xenakios/SWS: Normalize selected takes to dB value...", set to somewhere between -6dB & -9dB.

https://youtu.be/MVZjj5LHCZw

This is a rambling musician's perspective on gain staging so I'm expecting some cringing at my butchering of terminology & facts. Take what I say with a grain of salt

[kevinwayne]

Originally Posted by lachrimae

you may be better off using "Xenakios/SWS: Normalize selected takes to dB value...", set to somewhere between -6dB & -9dB

Is that something I need to add to the Right-click menu, or is it found somewhere already? Thanks for the tip.

[kevinwayne]

Originally Posted by lachrimae

you may be better off using "Xenakios/SWS: Normalize selected takes to dB value...", set to somewhere between -6dB & -9dB

Okay so I found the item under the Actions Menu, and placed it in the main Edit menu up top. Thanks for that, I had understood there was no way of setting your normalizing to a specific level.

Just in running an experiment on it using -7.50 as a halfway point ["somewhere between -6dB & -9dB" lol] I see some things are lowered, but quite a few things are raised also. Does that mean I need to g ahead and make the new level change and work from there, or what exactly?

[lachrimae]

I hope I'm not leading you down the wrong path here, but the main reason for suggesting the use of an Action is to make it as easy as possible to get into the ballpark of good gain staging (if it's easy, it's more likely to get done).

This is not a guideline by any means, but it is one possible way of doing things:
1) Set your items to a max peak of -6dB using "Xenakios/SWS: Normalize selected takes to dB value..."
2) Grab Sleepy Time Stereo Channel VU and place an instance on each track.
- If the level rises above +1dB VU, bring it down
- If the level doesn't rise to 0dB VU, leave it as is

Your items are now set to a max of -6dBfs (digital peak), and a max of +1dB VU, a good pre-FX starting point.

Now you can start adding EQ/Comp/FX and then balance out the tracks using faders and envelopes.

[Judders]

I really think it's a lot easier to select all items then pull the item gain knob down until you've got a good amount of headroom on your master. Then use the item gain knobs to get your static balance (or instrument output for software instruments).

It's literally a second or two of "work".

[karbomusic]

It's zero seconds if you record at the sound card's nominal level because it will already be in the right spot, have plenty of headroom for plugins and sort of just works. There is the exception where you don't have a choice such as few of my pres don't have output controls so in order to push them a little I end up having to pull the item gain down as soon as the recording stops to get the headroom back. As soon as I buy or build an external attenuator, that won't be an issue anymore though. Also some cheap SC instrument inputs are calibrated poorly but all is fixed by pulling them back down at the item level.

I know you know just sharing academically.

[kevinwayne]

Originally Posted by Judders

I really think it's a lot easier to select all items then pull the item gain knob down until you've got a good amount of headroom on your master. Then use the item gain knobs to get your static balance (or instrument output for software instruments).

It's literally a second or two of "work".

If only there wasn't Months and Months of "work" that preceded that...