A midi keyboard octave has 12 equal tones. I want to make a total of 53 tones (microtonal). Each full pitch (C-D, etc.) is 9 notes, each semi-tone (E-F, B-C) is 4 notes. How can I convert my Reaper midi sound and keyboard to microtonal measures?
A midi keyboard octave has 12 equal tones. I want to make a total of 53 tones (microtonal). Each full pitch (C-D, etc.) is 9 notes, each semi-tone (E-F, B-C) is 4 notes. How can I convert my Reaper midi sound and keyboard to microtonal measures?
There is a coma sound called Bb2 (https://ibb.co/2gsj6VC) in our music. This sound may not have the same effect in every instrument. Perfect for clarinet, violin and other middle eastern musical instruments, for example. I know some plugins(ETHNAUDIO) have microtonal feature. Having such a feature in the new version of Reaper can be considered revolutionary. I will use the other ways you mentioned. Thank you for your information.
I don't see what a DAW such as Reaper could do about this issue. It needs to stick to the Midi standard.
Of course played midi-Notes can be interpreted in a non-standard way by an instrument or a midi preprocessor plugin (in fact I did a "quartertone" plugin that uses keyswitches to have certain notes be lowered by a quartertone and does this by sending to two differently channels to be received by differently tuned instrument plugin instancess.
Do you think the Reaper Midi editor should be re-invented to allow for editing such content ?
It also offers a plugin you can put in front of MPE compatible instruments. It will send appropriate pitch-bend information to match the desired tuning.
I don't think you can change they layout of the piano roll, but there's a way you can add your own color markers like this
You need to set the midi editor to one for the whole project. Then add a piano roll markers track where you add items in the colors you want.
In the midi editor set the note colors to items, make the marker track visible and lock it. Then you can add new midi items where the colored markers are visible in the background.
Here's a video that explains this concept for Bitwig:
A midi keyboard octave has 12 equal tones. I want to make a total of 53 tones (microtonal). Each full pitch (C-D, etc.) is 9 notes, each semi-tone (E-F, B-C) is 4 notes. How can I convert my Reaper midi sound and keyboard to microtonal measures?
Thank you.
This was covered in a different thread, but it is unlikely that you will need 53 tones for any given piece. Most songs with microtonalities don't modulate keys, though they will change a few notes here and there. There are few instruments that actually do this in a chordal fashion, think about a piano with four hundred keys. There are a few lutes that cover a narrow range. There are instruments with continuous scales like violins and erhu. Chinese flute players keep a stack of twelve dizi to change keys.
There are plugins that make extensive use of the pitch wheel, others accommodate different tunings and or program changes.
I would map the pitches of a few notes to a knob, whallah.
For a microtonal tune let us say without big modulations, 12 pitches should be enough, 8 notes for the normal scale, or 7, plus 4 (or 5) more pitches for variation pitches, if available. For most use cases this should work already.
Of course, we won't need 53 notes at once. However, the needs of our ears are changing day by day. Traditional music will create increasingly rich emotions with various cultures. It may not matter to the Reaper right now, but if it does, it will make the Reaper the preferred choice for many people. That's it for me... (:
I can make microtonal songs without using any extra plugins, but it's a bit of a hassle. For example, I extract the note (Bb) that I want to be microtonal in the song (custom action-deselect.....) and then I pitch them in a separate channel with Reatune.
Michael is correct, assuming that you are referring to the REAPER piano roll. Reaper can only send out notes according to the MIDI standard, which for MIDI 1.0 is designed around the western 12 semitones per octave standard. Any microtonal interpretation of MIDI notes must be done by the instrument, or by some sort of hack as Michael suggests earlier.
If you do have an instrument that interprets MIDI notes as a microtonal scale, and you don't want the piano roll to show the western 12 tone note names and piano key graphics, you can already label the keys to your own liking. But you still only have 128 notes to play with.
I still don't see what exactly you for this goal might expect from the Reaper DAW itself.
DAW itself could load a scala file (.scl) then the 12 pitches of midi editor would be based on those frequencies for example? Now you know it.
Midi editor GUI could be done in different forms.
a) GUI exactly same, only output notes would contain additional pitchbend events for example.
b) GUI note heights would reflect the pitch distance as well. (This would be too much expected from the devs I guess. So lets stick to case a above).
DAW itself could load a scala file (.scl) then the 12 pitches of midi editor would be based on those frequencies for example?
Sorry but no. The DAW does not know how Midi notes are interpreted by an instrument plugin. Hence it only has the options to stick to standard Midi definition. Moreover there AFAIK, is no point in the DAW where it shows a frequency of a Midi Note, nor has it a functionality that creates such frequency to make it audible.
Where dos the Midi editor handles any "pitches" ?
AFAIK, Sibelius is not a DAW but a Notation editor. And I don't know what exactly it does regarding Pitches. Maybe other than Reaper (or any "DAW") it does has a built-in sound engine
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE
a) GUI exactly same, only output notes would contain additional pitchbend events for example.
b) GUI note heights would reflect the pitch distance as well. (This would be too much expected from the devs I guess. So lets stick to case a above).
a) Even Pitchbend (i.e MPE) does not help much, as the Midi standard does not define, how many cent a certain pitchbend value is assiciated to.
b) seems extremely fiddly
Sorry but no. The DAW dos not know how Midi notes are interpreted by an instrument plugin. Hence it only has the options to stick to standard Midi definition. Moreover there AFAIK, is no point in the DAW where it shows a frequency of a Midi Note, nor has it a functionality that creates such frequency to make it audible.
Implementing MTS-ESP inside a DAW could actually be quite interesting. It could automatically adapt the piano roll based on the tuning.
Reaper is a great DAW for microtonality. It is the VST plugins/instruments you use INSIDE reaper that must give you the ability to play microtones. Let reaper simply be the DAW where the microtonality takes place, as opposed to the thing that creates microtonality for you.
Method 1 - Pitch shift plugins: the method below is much better than this one, but I thought I'd share this too. These pitch-shift plugins are placed first in the chain of plugins you have in a track, or in the master track, and they pitch shift the natural tuning (which is always 12 tone equal temperament) to whatever tuning the plugin lets you decide. Examples are Microtoner by taqs.im, MTS-ESP by Oddsound, and Infinitone by Infinity Music. These have a drawback, however, because they change the tuning AFTER it is released by the instrument. This after-the-fact tuning method creates artifacts sometimes. Basically, the sound won't necessarily always be as clean as the original sound of the instrument.
Method 2 - VST Instruments/plugins that have built-in microtuning: this is the BEST method. You can do retuning INSIDE the instrument itself. Examples of how to do microtuning in popular VST plugins:
Kontakt: load an instrument in Kontakt. Click the wrench/tool inside the instrument. Click Script Editor. You'll notice that there are 5 script tabs. Find one that is Empty, click it. Inside the empty tab, click the highest "Preset" button on the top left; it has an arrow beside it. Click Factory > Tuning and now you can pick Microtuning which will let you change the 12 notes to anything you want...or you can click notes-per-octave which will let you specify specific divisions of the octave, like 53. Choosing the latter means you will end up with all 53 tones of 53 edo, so if you never need more than 12 then pick the Microtuning option.
Other popular synths/vst plugins can be tuned from within; they allow you to load tuning files from within the instrument itself. These tuning files are usually, the most popular, in the format of (.scl) and (.tun). Serum for example uses (.tun).
You can create these tuning files from this amazing website: https://sevish.com/scaleworkshop
it lets you create any tuning that you desire and then export its tuning file in a number of formats, for whatever your software or hardware synth needs.
If the plugin you are using doesn't have built-in microtuning and you rallyyy want to use it then use method 1, otherwise just replace the instrument with one that lets you do it from within.
Alright? So find out what kind of instruments you want to use, then figure out how they can be retuned, and apply the methods I suggested.
You guys are a bit late to the party. It's true that MIDI is limited to 127 notes, BUT you have 16 channels in the DAW...so you technically have 127 * 16 notes. This is great for using LARGE tuning systems...like 53. It means that you will have access to all the octaves you need, because otherwise you will max out of octaves very soon with only 127 notes. This tuning via multiple channels method is in fact what we microtonalists use to get around this issue. This is important because you don't necessarily want to use only twelve tones of 53-edo, maybe you want access to all of them at once. MTS-ESP lets you do this microtuning multi-channel routing work, which is a hassle for sure regardless.
Once you have that setup going, the problem then becomes the frustratingly small piano roll in a single midi editor window. I don't want to switch to another midi editor window just to access higher octaves/higher tones.
I really don't see why we can't have a LONGER/LARGER PIANO ROLL. It would have to understand that there is a larger tuning in a multi-channel output that is in play, and then become large enough to accommodate it all while making sure that each subsequent 127 keys release the sound from the appropriate channel.
Example would be: prompting the user to select how many keys they want in the piano roll...and/or prompting them to select whether they want a standard piano roll layout OR a larger/longer MULTI CHANNEL layout. Wouldn't that be cool?
One vst instrument that lets you do this from within is Pianoteq. In the tuning section you select keyboard layout/mapping, then multi channel layout. It will send all the other notes to the rest of the channels. Then you have to figure out how to work within your DAW to create a setup/workflow that is comfortable. Multiple child tracks of Pianoteq, each one receives from a particular channel is an example. Or...one track only and then selecting any midi note you want, right click and select channel, then pick the channel that has the right octave you want.
Also, I said 127 keys, but I guess it's 128 technically? My bad if I got that wrong!
No problem, you forgot only pitch 0, but the idea is same. Only during implementation such details are important. Keep up your sharing of ideas and do not take negative direction comments (like from mschnell) too seriously. His comments or questions are not any reference for anything.
Imo best would be probably a microtonal jsfx, not sure if such thing exists already. Its feature requirements could be something like:
- import scala (.scl) files for defining allowed pitches (see various available .scl examples)
- its output should be same as generated from jsfx pitch-follower, but instead of following incoming audio it should generate based on incoming midi, then applying the .scl ratios to those midi notes (i.e. the output frequency needs to be calculated from input midi note pitch + nearest .scl ratio)
- setting for pitchbend range (as available in jsfx pitch-follower, e.g. if you set to 2 semi-tones, your following fx should use same setting for pitch range)
That's it, more is not necessary I guess. Now mschnell can write his tales why this is not possible, makes no sense, not supported by MIDI standard and so on...
What I wrote above is for monophonic case. For polyphonic uses it needs to be extended, removing the trouble cases, e.g. as mentioned above, using midi channels, but Reaper has multiple ports per track as well, even if those would not be enough, another track could be used. So there are ways to solve this.
Also Yutani by master saike added recently proper pitch-bend range setting, so it can be used after jsfx pitch-follower. Its jsfx code can be used as well how it could be implemented for generating such output events. Maybe another experimentation field for Leonardo for their jsfx experiments on Youtube?
Of course, we won't need 53 notes at once. However, the needs of our ears are changing day by day. Traditional music will create increasingly rich emotions with various cultures. It may not matter to the Reaper right now, but if it does, it will make the Reaper the preferred choice for many people. That's it for me... (:
I can make microtonal songs without using any extra plugins, but it's a bit of a hassle. For example, I extract the note (Bb) that I want to be microtonal in the song (custom action-deselect.....) and then I pitch them in a separate channel with Reatune.
Why don't rich cultures that are supposedly good at software engineering produce more microtonal software plugins?
The Micro Tuner allows the exploration of many unique and interesting temperaments, both modern and classical. It also allows ethnic instruments to be played in their natural tuning.
For this example we’re going to create an instance of Falcon in 12-tone Pythagorean temperament with C4 at 256 Hz. Pythagorean tuning is based on a stack of intervals called perfect fifths, each tuned in the ratio 3:2 and creates exceptional harmonics.
Navigate to the Tree tab, right-click the Master node and select Add Event Processor > Micro Tuner. Placing the Micro Tuner at the Master level means that all parts in Falcon will be effected, this is a great way to ensure that any and all instruments loaded or created from here on out will be in tune.
The Micro Tuner allows the exploration of many unique and interesting temperaments, both modern and classical. It also allows ethnic instruments to be played in their natural tuning.
For this example we’re going to create an instance of Falcon in 12-tone Pythagorean temperament with C4 at 256 Hz. Pythagorean tuning is based on a stack of intervals called perfect fifths, each tuned in the ratio 3:2 and creates exceptional harmonics.
Navigate to the Tree tab, right-click the Master node and select Add Event Processor > Micro Tuner. Placing the Micro Tuner at the Master level means that all parts in Falcon will be effected, this is a great way to ensure that any and all instruments loaded or created from here on out will be in tune.
What I wrote in my first reply is all that is needed to figure out the how to tune things in Reaper or any DAW. In fact, what I wrote should be stickied somewhere so that further questions about tuning can be directed to it.
What you suggested, Falcon by UVI, is a good suggestion. It's an example of what I referred to as Method 2, plugins that have built-in functionality to support microtuning. Same thing with your other suggestion, Omnisphere. Serum also has microtuning functionality, so does Pigments, and many many other synths.
Another plugin I forgot to mention, as part of what I referred to as Method 1, is Entonal Studio: https://entonal.studio/
all of these can tune ANY of your plugins to any tuning you desire.
Okay? so honestly please just sticky my answers somewhere. It's depressing watching you guys make suggestions and solutions to problems that have already been dealt with. It's really not fair to any of you...every few months there is probably a post about "how do I do microtuning?". Just make a sticky thread somewhere. Orrr...make a microtuning thread in the forum and sticky some basic stuff at the top. We can't have people running in circles and others posting the same answers over and over again.
You guys are a bit late to the party. It's true that MIDI is limited to 127 notes, BUT you have 16 channels in the DAW...so you technically have 127 * 16 notes. This is great for using LARGE tuning systems...like 53...
...I really don't see why we can't have a LONGER/LARGER PIANO ROLL.
Sure, it's possible to do this (Michael said he has already implemented this method), but it is not a standard methodology used by all microtonal VST's. So you are asking that the developers go to a lot of trouble to modify the piano roll to support a non standard system.
Imo best would be probably a microtonal jsfx, not sure if such thing exists already.
It seems this exists already: Key Tuner. https://sites.google.com/site/octaro...ools/key-tuner
It should be included with Reaper I guess. You need to read the instructions above, only how to use it properly, did not test myself yet. But worth trying. Looks promising. Thanks for the developer octarone from here!
What I wrote in my first reply is all that is needed to figure out the how to tune things in Reaper or any DAW. In fact, what I wrote should be stickied somewhere so that further questions about tuning can be directed to it.
What you suggested, Falcon by UVI, is a good suggestion. It's an example of what I referred to as Method 2, plugins that have built-in functionality to support microtuning. Same thing with your other suggestion, Omnisphere. Serum also has microtuning functionality, so does Pigments, and many many other synths.
Another plugin I forgot to mention, as part of what I referred to as Method 1, is Entonal Studio: https://entonal.studio/
all of these can tune ANY of your plugins to any tuning you desire.
Okay? so honestly please just sticky my answers somewhere. It's depressing watching you guys make suggestions and solutions to problems that have already been dealt with. It's really not fair to any of you...every few months there is probably a post about "how do I do microtuning?". Just make a sticky thread somewhere. Orrr...make a microtuning thread in the forum and sticky some basic stuff at the top. We can't have people running in circles and others posting the same answers over and over again.
It's depressing that you didn't see my post about Etonal near the top of the page. Talk about running in circles! :P
It really seems like the most comprehensive solution if someone is serious about microtonal music and want to be able to use any instrument plugin.
Better name would be maybe something like "Microtonal_like_Scala.jsfx"
It would contain the word "microtonal" and scala, as its text file format is almost same as the famous scala (.scl) files, you can copy paste the scala numbers directly from any .scl only adding on top a few lines. So one can say it is identical to scala files, if we ignore the header part of few lines.
So Reaper users and community should know you can freely experiment with microtonal scales, with scala .scl (scala definitions in text form), at least for monophonic microtonal music. It has support for splitting into multiple channels and so on as well, for those who want to experiment further. Hope this post is useful to any future microtonal interested Reaper users, in 5 years or so. Have fun with Reaper, friends.
There are many Makam songs and sitar pieces that sound very good for my western ears.
-Michael
I like alot of the Native American music. It is based on a continuum idea. Lots of very narrow intervals. Almost like Vital's detuned Unison voice settings. I guess you could think of it like nanotunings. How close can they sing together and still hear separate intervals.
I wish there were some "steel guitar" type synth instruments and input devices. Midi really is extremely limited in the real domain, at least most of the plugins I have seen, don't handle pitch envelopes on individual notes all that well whilst playing live, or otherwise.
However, I feel its a pretty fundamental physical limitation. Nothing is all that precise except maybe a standup bass or a Chinese GuQin. You need a really long scale to hit specific notes.
Tuning a piano to get those notes, woo takes forever with a tuning hammer.
That is the reason most microtonal music doesn't modulate keys, Indian music tunes their instruments by the seasons, it takes forever to tune those.
Get you a shrutti drone box plugin. Dial it to the scale you want off to the races.
Even if you stick to twelve notes per octave, there are a lot of interesting alternatives to 12TET (12 tone equal temperament) like just intonation or Pythagorean tuning, which sound great when you use them right. Standard 12TET tuning is actually slightly out of tune for all intervals except for the octave, and other tuning systems have more pure intervals at the cost of also more dissonant intervals.
And with MTS-ESP Master by oddsound, you can retune your instrument on the fly to adapt to your chord changes mitigating some of the dissonance.
Unfortunately, tuning systems are a very complex topic and I don't really know what I'm talking about either.
Considering how subjective all music is, this seems like a very silly question.
The answer is obviously 'it depends...'
Its also a big part of some forms music (and comes in many forms) and intrinsic to a large amount of cultures, to discount it all, would be quite silly Personally, Im not a huge microtonal fan, but I think its going to be a big part of popular music at some point. Altho I adore Horse Lords and they're microtonal based.
Didn't hear any microtonal chords and definitely no 54 tone microtonal chromatic scale.
Maybe you should learn pedal steel instead, they could use all of those notes...
Hey, erm. I'm just gonna say it, if you don't hear any microtonality (assuming that "microtonal"=not 12-equal) in that singing, it's not because it's not there. I'm hearing plenty of Maqam Rast and Maqam Hijaz in there, scale segments which have "quarter tone"-like intervals in them. Really masterful singing too.
Great pedal steel video though! I'd love to learn to play pedal steel one day, they're expensive though... and hard to find where I live. Oh well, one thing at a time.
A midi keyboard octave has 12 equal tones. I want to make a total of 53 tones (microtonal). Each full pitch (C-D, etc.) is 9 notes, each semi-tone (E-F, B-C) is 4 notes. How can I convert my Reaper midi sound and keyboard to microtonal measures?
Thank you.
Hello! I do this kind of thing every day, for reasons I imagine are similar to yours. From your mention of the 9-komma system I imagine you're into turkish makam tuning? I'm not expert in it, but studied arabic maqam a little, and older Scandinavian music (my home scene) has very similar intonation patterns, though the musical dialect is different.
I have two recommendations: If you're on Discord, come join the Surge server. We talk about a lot of stuff like this there.
Second: MTS-ESP is *fantastic* for makam-style playing. https://oddsound.com/mtsespsuite.php
It lets you switch what frequencies are produced by each key on your keyboard, in real-time while playing.
So for example, you can have a left-foot pedal which switches between rast, nahawand, bayati etc etc.
As a bonus, it will re-tune all instruments in the DAW at the same time, saving you the time and effort to re-tune every instance individually. That's the closest thing we have to the "microtonal DAW" experience right now, and it works great!