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11-19-2022, 06:38 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 613
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Favorite Nearfield monitors?
Over the past 20 years, I have been through several sets of nearfield monitors from alesis, tannoy, Yamaha, genelec, Adam, Neumann, focal, and others - currently using a pair of quested S6, which are quite good.
From my experience, while studio monitors are supposedly designed to be flat and neutral, the difference between any two given brands can be enormous - some are bright and edgy, and others are mellow and smooth, some have tight punchy low end while others are flabby and undefined.
Some people like exaggerated high end allowing them to hear lots of detail, but that often comes at the expense of ear fatigue. Likewise on the low end - punchy monitors can fool you into thinking you have nailed the bass and kick, only to find them sounding muddy when heard on other systems.
The largest single problem I have found with most monitors is in getting a good sense of what is going on in the low mids, and I haven’t yet found an answer to that.
What nearfield monitors do you use, and if you had some free money, what would you buy to replace them? Any additional thoughts are always appreciated.
Thanks.
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11-19-2022, 06:55 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 561
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I recently ended up picking up a pair of HS8 monitors from Yamaha. They were a massive upgrade from my old ESI Near05 units.
I believe Philbo was recommending to me the JBL 308P mkII as a good choice, but I was unable to source them anywhere in anything close to a reasonable timeline...
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11-19-2022, 07:01 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,195
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Sometimes (especially if your mix position is against a wall or control room window) the speakers get an artificial bass boost from the wall reflections. You might look into digital correction (perhaps a convolution IR EQ) of the extra bass if thus applies in your case. Freq response humps (but not dips) can be successfully treated by minimum phase filters.
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11-19-2022, 09:08 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Swiss Zürich
Posts: 805
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Monitors
Believe it or not, my favorit monitor speakers are the built in loudspeakers of this MacbookAir M1.
The Stereoimage is excellent and the sound clear and nice.
Of course I use a headphone for crosschecking details in bass or reverbs.
But for daily use the little computer is all I need.
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11-20-2022, 02:08 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Milan, Italy
Posts: 506
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ATC SCM20 ASL Pros here, since 2011. Recently traded in my 13 year old pair for the new Mk II version. Best nearfield monitors I've ever heard, work great in mid field too (I use mine 2.5m apart and sit 2.5m back). I'm about to add the SCS70 sub. I don't think there exists better, they are in a different league from all the other monitors mentioned here, IMO.
Last edited by Hermetech Mastering; 11-20-2022 at 01:40 PM.
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11-20-2022, 04:31 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Unity Audio The Rock IIs. I kept my old Tannoy NFM 6 Mk IIs but seldom use them any more. The Rocks are great for me, even as my hearing gets worse and worse with old age & playing bass next to drummers crash cymbals for years
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Ici on parles Franglais
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11-20-2022, 05:31 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman34
The largest single problem I have found with most monitors is in getting a good sense of what is going on in the low mids, and I haven’t yet found an answer to that.
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The answer probably is "room treatment". The Questeds are incredibly good speakers, it's unlikely they'd deliver a weak low mid representation. Another option, if your room is at least partially treated, is a digital room correction plugin like Sonarworks, ARC3, Dirac etc. Physics in theory say otherwise, but it helps unmasking some critical areas of your acoustic environment.
EDIT: I've just read an interesting review about the S6. Being a sealed cabinet of smallish size, I'm pretty sure you need a subwoofer in order to get an approriate resolution of low end / low mids.
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"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
Last edited by beingmf; 11-20-2022 at 07:31 AM.
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11-20-2022, 07:52 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 3,378
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if you can get used to them the old NS10 still works well and as a sealed box isn't that fussy about position and room nodes.
They don't sound particularly nice but they've got good transient and phase response.
I think you're quested's will be great with a pair of decent phones to check low end.
I'm a quested man here. Had the original 2108's for many years then upgraded to the now obsolete Active 3208's with stands and have been very happy with them.
M
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11-20-2022, 08:30 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 514
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Hi,
after acoustic room treatment Neumann KH 310. The smaller Neumann arent' that good in comparison to the 310.
If you don't want to spent the money: Behringer B2030A Truth plus Behringer DEQ 2496 Ultra-Curve for roomcompensation. If you don't believe: try them.
horst
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11-20-2022, 10:43 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMM
I have been happy using Mackie HR824 speakers.
Plus, I have a sub. The Mackie speakers have well
defined highs, mids, and lows in my opinion. However,
I like to activate my sub (on and off) during mixing also
to hear the deepest of lows there.
Everything paired together works nice for me.
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I have the exact same, but in a horrible sounding corner of my tiny setup. I was recently gifted a pair of old Maudio's and was surprised at the difference.
In conclusion; no matter the monitor you have to get to know them. Listening to my mixes and mastering I know what to watch out for. For my setup it's the highish mids. They tend to honk on other systems like the car. Then when I added the sub my bass disappeared on other systems so I had to compensate that. Pay attention, take notes, and use what you have. AND!!! Mastering in the same room you mix is not a good idea but I couldn't tell the difference from a cheapish (75$ per tune) mastering house, so proceed with caution.
Having one of my mixes mastered in an world class retail joint is on my bucket list.
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11-20-2022, 10:56 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 613
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Hermetech - yes, I have the SCM20 on my audition list, along with geithaine, Amphion, and psi.
Ivan - I suspect the unity monitors would be quite good, as they use drivers made by Elac. My audiophile neighbor has a very nice pair of elacs using those exact drivers, and they are wonderful (though it seems he only plays “kind of blue” over and over…)
Thanks for the comments about room correction - my space (17’x21’x8’) is moderately treated with 10 - 1’x4’ acoustic panels and 3” foam on ceiling above my piano. Better treatment would surely improve things, but my wife also uses our studio to teach flute lessons and has mirrors and framed stuff on walls where I would want more panels…. On the up-side, I record chamber and classical music mostly, so I don’t have to deal with low end issues in general.
Siehorst- I actually quite liked my Neumann KH80s - very clean and accurate, and offered an incredibly strong low end for such small speakers. I made lots of good mixes on those monitors.
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11-20-2022, 11:48 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,689
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I spent many hours listening to the ATC scm20 (non ASL), also the scm20T towers (floor standers) in the 1990s to early 2000s.
That said they were being used in a hi-fi system. Nothing to do with music production.
I've always liked closed speaker systems.
Good speakers. Easy to recommend for this game.
Funnily enough the Elac Jet was a nice sounding little speaker system too, and that's despite being ported.
I have DIY loudspeakers so no point banging on about them. Sealed systems again though.
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11-21-2022, 01:00 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman34
Ivan - I suspect the unity monitors would be quite good, as they use drivers made by Elac. My audiophile neighbor has a very nice pair of elacs using those exact drivers, and they are wonderful (though it seems he only plays “kind of blue” over and over…)
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When the Rock IIs first came out, they were nose-bleedingly expensive (£2700 a pair) but I bought them direct from the makers who are quite close to me for way less than that, after visiting several other companies and auditioning their kit. For me, the Rocks & the rest of their products were the best out there - at least those that I could actually afford!
Still love `em.
One other thought: Give some of the PMC stuff a listen. I could never afford the ATC stuff but YES they are super clean. A friend of mine in Nashville had the Treasure Isle studio & at one time had ATC in all the small rooms.
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Last edited by ivansc; 11-21-2022 at 01:07 PM.
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11-21-2022, 01:15 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Jupiter Island
Posts: 923
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Would I be besmirching this thread by mentioning JBL Control 5's ?
I have a pair with matching 4 x woofer sub, the sub cost me a few quid second hand but the tops were had for the princely sum of £5 (sheer luck)!!
They are friggin' loud (well, they're passive but can take a lot of cranking)... and incredibly bright (possibly due to the neodymium tweeters).
I'm not sure if I like them more than other monitors, having little to reference them against, except my vintage KEF Coda2's... which are strictly HI-Fi speakers and basically the opposite, being very mellow in the top end and "warm" sounding.
I do nearly everything thru a pair of Beyerdynamic DT990 headphones to be honest.
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11-22-2022, 06:06 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 2,056
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All I can say is that I really love my Adam Audio monitors. Coupled with Sennheiser phones, a nice combo. I find I can easily translate a mix on the phones to the monitors and back. Whether that's a good mix or not, at least I know I can use the strengths of each to work a mix ...
dB
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11-22-2022, 04:14 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 10,478
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In terms of value for money, hard to go wrong with JBL. They have been around for decades and sell anything from consumer grade boomboxes to high end studio reference monitors.
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11-23-2022, 01:31 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,814
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Interesting what folks use here. I've always been rather partial to monitors that do not present too harsh of a sound, yet retain enough detail to be useful in what I do. Much of my work in the 200x was done on Genelecs 1031 and Geithains. I was never a big fan of Genelecs but they work very well and last forever.
My first home setup was naturally a complete disaster from todays point of view, a $100 amp with two custom speakers built in a 70s that were good left overs from my dads stereo system. I wrote music on the Amiga with that and had a great time.
The first professional setup was the Bluesky System One 2.1. The two stereo speakers have been repaired twice and one needs repair again actually, which is why it's shamefully hiding in a corner beneath a cover. The sub actually ripped itself apart, and an enthusastic speaker builder put a new speaker membrane in a new chassis with the old Bluesky electronics(good stuff he assured me). Works great.
Today I use three Neumann (actually Klein&Hummel)KM120A, two KH80 and that sub.
I love 'em. There are probably far better speakers out there, such as the KM310 series, but I've had a great time with them, mixing somewhere in the vicinity of 500-600 shows on them, including several 5.1 films.
The speaker room at the local big music gear store (Justmusic.de) needs a visit again, which is how I know the KM310 are great iirc, but I need to check out more. You never know what you'll fall in love with.
Last edited by airon; 11-23-2022 at 04:34 PM.
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11-23-2022, 03:46 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman34
Siehorst- I actually quite liked my Neumann KH80s - very clean and accurate, and offered an incredibly strong low end for such small speakers. I made lots of good mixes on those monitors.
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I'm currently using LS3/5a'a for nearfield monitors but if I was buying again I would probably go for Neumann. I've used the KH120A for a couple of projects and heard that the KH80 are actually better in many respects so they must be well worth a look. It may also be worth trying the KH80 in conjunction with the KH750 sub which I have heard is a very impressive combination.
Neumann have the new KH150 coming out which are apparently very impressive too.
One non Neumann recommendation would be to also look at the KEF LS50. Phil Ward likes them in
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kef-ls50-wireless
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11-23-2022, 09:18 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 373
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Here is another idea.
Pick up a used AV Receiver with "Audyssey MultEQ®" room correction. It works wonders and can bring out the best from whatever speakers you got now.
I replaced my integrated 2ch Stereo Amplifier with one. It made my old late 80's JBL TLX-8 speakers sound amazing.
You can score an AVR like this for <$150.
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11-24-2022, 01:27 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-H
Here is another idea.
Pick up a used AV Receiver...
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Only one problem, which may or may not be an issue for you... Latency. With consumer home AV equipment I find it completely unusable, at least when playing while recording.
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11-24-2022, 01:35 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
There are probably far better speakers out there, such as the KM310 series [...] which is how I know the KM310 are great iirc, but I need to check out more.
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The 310s might be pleasant as HiFi speakers, but once you work with them, you'll realize they're too forgiving and "soft". Disclaimer: I'm a Tannoy guy.
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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11-24-2022, 02:23 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Agreed on the K&H/Neumann speakers. I had decided they would be the ones for me till I listened to them side by side with several other monitors. Hence the Rock IIs.
Also I am pleased to see no mention of Focals. Every bloody one I auditioned had issues. They look good but there is a hard-to-define issue in the midrange on just about every model I auditioned.
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Ici on parles Franglais
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11-24-2022, 04:18 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 3,378
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the thing with monitors is really what works for you, in your space.
It doesn't really matter what someone else likes, they're a reference, hence the full term 'reference monitors' , so if yo get used to a certain speaker , that will be your 'reference'
there are so many options now in all price ranges, we're spoilt for choice in some ways.
M
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11-24-2022, 06:13 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook
the thing with monitors is really what works for you, in your space.
It doesn't really matter what someone else likes, they're a reference, hence the full term 'reference monitors' , so if yo get used to a certain speaker , that will be your 'reference'
there are so many options now in all price ranges, we're spoilt for choice in some ways.
M
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This exactly ...My berhinger truth 2031a are about the cheapest 8 inch near fields available but they certainly have what I want from them, I have a sub woofer holding up the bottom end . I also have a high end surround sound system running neutral for the most part as it really shines for piano and synth vst's in performance mode. and useful for a comparison in mix mode . And dont forget headphones as well.
The low mids muddle is exactly where we want to fit things that all require that band . But lets say you have an ideal set of drivers with separate amps and you got the very best clarity that made you content , nobody will ever hear your work of perfection unless they are in your listening space which is what I try to do as Im not good enough to publish anything.. Eventually we wind up debating the loudness war with no result
Be careful buying secondhand as speakers and amps as the op would know ,can have faults that only show up at certain frequencies and power levels . This means making a lot of noise. This is also why people sell their high end monitors for a great price .A recorded piano scale (Played hard) all octaves pedal down is useful for testing .
Last edited by lizzard; 11-24-2022 at 06:23 PM.
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11-26-2022, 09:38 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,776
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I've never had anything spectacular for monitors, Tannoys, Truths, Mackie MR5 MkIIs, with ARC room correction but my monitors have been collecting dust since I got Slate VSX and don't foresee ever using monitors ever again.
Working at a home studio with less than ideal acoustics, and average speakers feels like a lost cause to me.
Much better to have dozens of virtual monitors, some the price of a car with the ability to work any time of day, anywhere with complete consistency.
It's the only Slate product I own so hardly a fan-boy, but I could've shaved years and endless wasted hours trying (and failing) to have my mixes translate. Now there's few surprises anywhere. Phone speaker, headphones, portable Bluetooth, the mix is the mix. My final test was playing on PK Sound at a festival still expecting the worst, everything sounded like it was supposed to.
I usually use virtual ATC SCM150s or Barefoot MM27s for a large percentage of mixing, and ns10s for the rest, with checks on a boombox/Auratone, and big monitors for the occasional treat.
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11-26-2022, 01:30 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,036
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11-27-2022, 04:07 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleC
Only one problem, which may or may not be an issue for you... Latency. With consumer home AV equipment I find it completely unusable, at least when playing while recording.
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No issue for me but interesting point.
How much latency is there?
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11-28-2022, 05:13 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
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Valid warning dont use spdif optic or digital inputs with home av systems as there is latency that is not in the manual. Just know that analogue inputs must be used for the fastest response.
one would think that digital should be the fastest but alas there is a re-conversion in every one I know of .
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11-28-2022, 07:50 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 479
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I use the KH80s, which are all I need (no sub necessary) as I only work with acoustic music that has little to no deep bass content and my room is pretty small. They're great monitors, but the Neumann MA 1 room calibration software is a disaster. I've tried it with a Windows laptop and two different Macs, more than 50 attempts, and have never gotten it to work. It sometimes recognizes one monitor, sometimes both monitors, but it never progresses to the calibration stage. I gave up and got Sonarworks.
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11-28-2022, 08:23 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizzard
Valid warning dont use spdif optic or digital inputs with home av systems as there is latency that is not in the manual. Just know that analogue inputs must be used for the fastest response.
one would think that digital should be the fastest but alas there is a re-conversion in every one I know of .
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Does anyone have any data on this?
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11-28-2022, 08:53 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 561
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I can only tell you my anecdotes. I've tried it with 3 separate AV receivers.
Many years ago, I had a class A/B analog amplifier, and that worked well. But all I had to do was plug the guitar preamp in to see that no matter what I did, the AV receivers all incurred a processing lag before what went in came out. And it was clear. 300ms of latency was about the minimum.
There's a reason that most current TVs have a setting buried inside the menus to adjust for sync issues between the audio and video. Mine calls it "AV Sync Adjustment".
The lowest you can get is when your amplifier does as little as possible - "Direct". And that's not great either. It's still taking a round trip through the audio engine.
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11-28-2022, 08:59 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizzard
...latency that is not in the manual
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Yep. It's not in the manual, because the use case for the amplifier does not include being in a time-sensitive audio recording chain. That's just not what it's for.
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11-28-2022, 09:15 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 561
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Interesting anecdote - at least for me!
Back in 1983 I had a single unit stereo - radio, cassette, record player all in one piece. I was 13 years old. I had a guitar, a Boss HM-2, and a small Yamaha amplifier. I was routing my guitar into that deck somehow into the line in jacks, and making recordings of my playing.
When I re-used cassettes, they were imperfectly erased - I could still hear the ghost of what was on it before. I brought it back to the store for repair, only to hear "no fault found". Finally I drew my whole audio chain on paper and brought it with me on the third attempt.
The tech looked at it and said, "That's not what this is for."
Turns out I was overdriving the analog input, and thus the recording heads.
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11-29-2022, 09:19 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 373
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The possible issue of signal delay in AVR receivers is interesting. It makes sense that there would be a delay when the DSP circuits (for room correction) is in use.
When I get some time I'll make an attempt to measure the lag. My AVR is an Onkyo TX-NR626 that I picket up for $50 at Goodwill. I had to buy the correct mic for the room correction calibration so just short of $100 in total.
There is a 'direct' mode that bypasses all circuits but the analog chain so if the line inputs are used there should be no lag at all if that use case is needed for live recordings for example.
The room correction can then be turned back on for mixing.
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12-05-2022, 01:26 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Island of Misfit Toys
Posts: 649
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+1 on the Unity Audio The Rock IIs, I use them for mastering
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12-05-2022, 02:24 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 1,349
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I love my closed back, powered Rokit 8's from 10 years ago. They are a bit large for my room, wish I'd got 5's but there ya go.
Incidentally, I have seen folks put them on their sides. Is that a bad idea? Tweeter on the outside...sort of oO.....Oo
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Windows 10 Pro. Intel i7 3400ghz. 16GB Ram. Focusrite Scarlett 8i6. Reaper 64.
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12-07-2022, 01:37 AM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucian
+1 on the Unity Audio The Rock IIs, I use them for mastering
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I love that I can get away with having mine a lot closer to the back wall than is usually recommended without getting any significant proximity effect-ness.
Plus my hearing is slowly but surely leaving, but even now I can hear way more from the Rocks than any of the other speakers I own.
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Ici on parles Franglais
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