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Old 05-28-2020, 05:45 AM   #81
Reno.thestraws
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In my opinion, if it's not a bug and area selection is designed like that, it will be very limited.



reaper time selection allows to do hundreds of things, it works and we know it well. Why not simply "boost" its possibilities in terms of selection rather than adding another object that still behaves differently?
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:47 AM   #82
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Area just have to be some kind of "multiple time selection" and work like normal time selection.
Totally agree.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:51 AM   #83
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A clear and concrete example of the problematic of the area as an object different from time selection; the action: remove stretch marker in time selection ...
you assign a keyboard shortcut, which you have used for years. you create an area on several items and ... nope ... it doesn't work ...

The logic must be kept, that it responds to the editing behavior that we know and the editing options (trim content, item always mix, move cursor to start of time selection, MOUSE MODIFIERS ...) otherwise, I fear it’s just one more feature that will only be used on a few occasions
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:54 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
The logic must be kept, that it responds to the editing behavior that we know and the editing options (trim content, item always mix, move cursor to start of time selection, ...) otherwise, I fear it’s just one more feature that will only be used on a few occasions
Golden words!
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:06 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
Area just have to be some kind of "multiple time selection" and work like normal time selection.
Reno is right! I am sure that most of the users will use AS as the main tool.And they expect the same logic as in the TS + marquee.

The same goes for set AS. It still jumps to the previous grid divdision not like TS. It is very uncomfortable.Please make set AS start to closest grid divdsion!


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Old 05-28-2020, 06:12 AM   #86
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In short, here's how i see things :

Add an option

[]Allow user to draw multiple and discontinued time selection

If multiple time selection are drawn
[]link loop to the first you draw
[]link loop to the start of the first and the end of the last

Add mouse modifiers to existing context
; set time selection keeping current time selection
; remove area of time selection
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:19 AM   #87
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edit...

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Old 05-28-2020, 06:35 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
Some consolidated FR:
I don't think all of this should be presented to devs as feature requests. In my humble opinion, it is better to rethink the time selection by giving it the possibility of being multiplied and discontinuous (in the verticality) ... basically, to have a time selection which behaves like the current AR
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:35 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
2. Option to quickly swap time selection with Area Selection
8. TS actions obey Area selection
I'd like to elaborate on this. In my opinion, time selection should be replaced by area selection. So time selection would be just contiguous area selection for all tracks and should stay after clicking in arrange view.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:48 AM   #90
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I believe automation items still don't respond like normal items when on a folder track. Please can this be changed? The example shows you'd expect all selected items in the selection to follow and move.

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Old 05-28-2020, 06:50 AM   #91
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I believe automation items still don't respond like normal items when on a folder track. Please can this be changed? The example shows you'd expect all selected items in the selection to follow and move.
You don't use area selection on the gif.
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Old 05-28-2020, 07:21 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
You don't use area selection on the gif.
No I don't, but I do show the issue/problem I was talking about, is that still valid? Regardless of how items are selected, automation items don't currently respond to being moved on folder tracks. I think this should change. I only just remembered this hadn't been discussed that much so maybe see what others think.

I'd expect an automation item to move along with everything else (including if it is on a folder track) if the user highlights it and tries to drag it. If this isn't the appropriate place then so be it.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:20 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Embass View Post
(bunch of gifs)
These gifs are very useful, thank you!
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:55 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
I'd like to elaborate on this. In my opinion, time selection should be replaced by area selection. So time selection would be just contiguous area selection for all tracks and should stay after clicking in arrange view.
I think that's a bit drastic and I don't think this is going to happen, because the devs never sacrafice a feature for another, because it breaks existing workflows.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:05 AM   #95
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I think that's a bit drastic and I don't think this is going to happen, because the devs never sacrafice a feature for another, because it breaks existing workflows.
But it will look and behave the same (in my perfect world). Is it possible now to make area selection for all tracks, if their number is big enough?
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:18 AM   #96
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I could be way off base here, but the intent of this design seems to be:

1. Keep time selection as-is

2. Add area selection for the use-cases where where time selection left gaps in the product (like being able to copy/paste entire sections of songs with automation using no AI's)

While I personally think the ideal state of selection wouldn't distinguish between the two types, I'm not sure that's even up for consideration at this point. Probably best to just focus on the area selection bugs at this time.

Maybe best case is: start small on area selection, get it working as expected for the use cases that address #2 above, and build on it over time so that some day we've got enough AS actions and features that users can eventually chose to replace the legacy time selection with the new Area Selection.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:27 AM   #97
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There are always going to be use cases for time selection distinct from area selection. Just as on the flip side there are use cases for area selection not covered by time selection - hence the whole reason for the feature. Rather than "redefine" what time selection is/should be, why don't we worry about trying to get Area Selection right first? If we find they greatly overlap or users are using one and not the other it can be dealt with then.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:38 AM   #98
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I don't think it should just fill gaps where Time Selection is lacking...there's a strong case to be made to keep Time Selection as-is, but matching every function Time Selection gives us with Area Selection, as well as all the added benefits we get.

ex: Currently Area Selection is just a duplication/deletion tool. Will Area Selection eventually allow Envelope trim/skew/compress/expand (ala Area51/Ableton/Cubase)? We currently have Trim using Time Selection, but this is made infinitely better if added to Area Selection. In an orchestral template, if you want to lower the volume of the entire String section for example...Area Select all the relevent CC1 lanes, trim the envelope down. A perfect use case, and a COLOSSAL time saver.

It's already incredible as-is, but would be a tremendous missed opportunity if there wasn't effort put towards at least Matching the functionality of Time Selection with Area Selection.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:40 AM   #99
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Quote:
I believe automation items still don't respond like normal items when on a folder track. Please can this be changed? The example shows you'd expect all selected items in the selection to follow and move.
When AI and items are selected, AI should be moved with media items (whatever if "envelope points move with media items" is enabled or not)...

It's illogical to see a selected thing which doesn't move when we want to move it. And if we have selected the item and the automation item, it's because we want move both.

Or it would be nice to have a new mouse modifier selection "item & automation item" and be able to chose the behavior when AI and item are selected.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:45 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
It's illogical to see a selected thing which doesn't move when we want to move it. And if we have selected the item and the automation item, it's because we want move both.
Exactly my point, doesn't seem right AI won't respond on folder tracks as you want it to - when trying to move all selected items.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:10 AM   #101
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I'll echo again what someone said earlier... instead of attaching A.S to time selection, why not make A.S mimic ITEM selection?

Yes a lot of the things we used time selection for we will now use A.S, totally agree, I actually suggested the same thing as you earlier on, but after some thought I think that time selection is still a separate tool with it's own distinct uses.

If A.S worked so that any items under the currently drawn A.S were seen by Reaper as selected, and as soon as you execute any kind of destructive action then it just autosplits at the boundaries (just like when we duplicate/delete an A.S now), then we wouldn't need ANY new shortcuts, and time selection can still be time selection.

This feels more elegant to me although maybe it's asking too much from a coding perspective (I wouldn't know).
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:10 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by nappies View Post
The same goes for set AS. It still jumps to the previous grid divdision not like TS. It is very uncomfortable.Please make set AS start to closest grid divdsion!


+1

This is annoying.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:00 PM   #103
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It would be so nice if we could draw AS on each lane of the overlapping items.

Right now this behavior doesn't make sense as shown in the following gif.
I want to split those 2 items and move them below their first half part. But it's impossible to do this since AS is selecting all the track height



If we were able to draw AS independently on each item lane, it would be so useful for editing when using overlapping items.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:17 PM   #104
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I can't disable "show overlapping items in lanes". Does someone else experience this?
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:21 PM   #105
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Hey Devs,

Congrats on including Area Selection (AS)!!

First of all... fantastic job. I don't want to even think what a ton of work this has been to get AS to the level of functionality you have already introduced. You guys never cease to amaze!!

That said, since you are still working on this, I wanted to bring up some things before it's too late.

I've gone through this thread... and read the posts and opinions... and am familiar with the Area 51 thread with all its discussions. Keeping that in mind...

Here are my observations:

1) There seems to be a complaints about laggy behavior
2) It's too easy to commit to a incorrect destination of the AS.
3) There's a lot of static about Envelope functionality.



And if I may be so bold...
Here are my suggested solutions:


1) Ghost copies -- moving the Area Selection without pasting on tracks WHILE being dragged.
2) Must be able to see destination without committing (so click a "Paste" key command when done)
3) An option to Move Area Selection Envelope Points to different lanes and just pasting the Value and not the associated parameter.
4) Include a Left-Mouse drag option (this would solve issues for Mac users).



So let's break this down:

#1 Ghost Copies:
This is a graphical solution to avoid the lagginess of having to iterate pasting on to tracks while dragging the AS.

#2 See Destination before committing:
This is important because once you tediously make your immaculate selection, and you accidentally release the mouse on the wrong grid setting or simply release the mouse in the wrong place… you’ve committed. It may be better to be able to (even have multiple sections and) “Paste” (with some key command) the final destination of the AS. Also you could then conceivably easily paste to different destinations without having to reselect an AS.

#3 Moving Envelopes:
With MIDI plugins and host automation, it is very desirable to be able to paste Envelope values only (without their parameter — say Freq Gain 1 to a Distortion Amount) to different lane/s without keeping the parameter data. Maybe there is a way to do this with a Key Command option. Additionally, this may make it easier to copy several lanes of Envelope point to new unrelated lanes at the same time without the tedium of having to do it one-at-a-time.

#4 Left Mouse Drag:
For Mac users, a left-drag would be almost mandatory. Not for me particularly because I have a Logitec mouse, but for those who don’t and for those who use a track pad.



Anyway… I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m being an ingrate. I’m just trying to cut through the static and hopefully provide some a relevant perspective.

Cheers,

Andrew K
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Last edited by Thonex; 05-28-2020 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:35 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
I can't disable "show overlapping items in lanes". Does someone else experience this?
No, I can disable it here.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:49 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
I can't disable "show overlapping items in lanes". Does someone else experience this?
This (post #5)?
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=171911
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:50 PM   #108
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Do Mac users not just map Control to emulate Right-Mouse? This has been working for me brilliantly for years...instead of Option-Right-Drag for AS it's just Control-Option-Drag.

Just feels like a Left-Drag option would require a whole new mode, as left-click is so deeply integrated into a million other default actions...
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:52 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagelis View Post
No, I can disable it here.
Thanks for checking. It was my fault. I had a different mode set for new recorded material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Yes, that was it. Thank you!

Sorry for the off-topic, gents.
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:07 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Just feels like a Left-Drag option would require a whole new mode, as left-click is so deeply integrated into a million other default actions...
Don't think this is an issue, it draws like any other thing and it has its own click/drag context, it would not break or make any thing worse.

You have marequee on left drag mid drag right drag, this one is nothing special
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:26 PM   #111
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Sexan this is true, I just fear that a person will accidentally engage slip-edit when Left-Dragging rather than creating an Area. Solution to that is to have active zones that engage Area Selection vs slip-edit (ie, it's Area Selection if you drag top-half, slip-edit if you drag bottom), but then that's a new layer of complexity and inaccuracy when quickly trying to drag an area.

But you might be right...just, right now it being a totally different mouse button keeps it totally clean from any of these other daily-used functions.
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:29 PM   #112
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That's the intended behavior in general, it's not affected by the trim-behind preference. If you have an area that contains empty space and you move it somewhere, that means you want empty space there. There are mouse modifiers to move the area selection without moving the contents, which would just move the frame not affect anything else.
What's the rationale for not having area selection edits follow the trim-behind preference? I think it confusing that way and I assumed it was a bug until I read your post. Trim behind is an editing preference, so it should apply to all edits regardless of how the content being edited is selected. I know I'm not alone in hoping to replace most of what I've been doing with time and item selections with area selection, but that can't happen if all the same preferences and options don't apply. Instead I'll be left with an even more complex mish-mash of selection methods than before. Really hope you'll consider making the trim behind behavior apply to area selections

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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Regarding whether area selection should always remove content behind empty space: there is an area selection left-click behavior "split media items at all area selections," and the next built will also have "copy media items at all area selections," which you can map to something like shift+click. So if you don't want the remove-content behavior, create the area, shift+click, then drag.
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Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
this ended up being a slick way to handle that FR. thank you!
I mean, it works for some cases, but I certainly wouldn't call it slick. Having to first run an action before I can click and drag feels awkward and a little slow compared to being able to do the whole thing with one click and drag motion. This method also doesn't work in cases where I want to preserve the empty space at the start/end of an area selection for snapping purposes or if I want to preserve automation data in the empty spaces of an area.
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:30 PM   #113
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Sexan this is true, I just fear that a person will accidentally engage slip-edit when Left-Dragging rather than creating an Area.
That is not possible since that are two different context. Can you do this mistake with time selection?

Problem here is that factory modifiers are not ideal. For example you cannot make selection over items (which you expect you can do), you need to modify defaults to do that
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:33 PM   #114
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Don't think this is an issue, it draws like any other thing and it has its own click/drag context, it would not break or make any thing worse.

You have marequee on left drag mid drag right drag, this one is nothing special
Agree on that. About left drag, devs should consider the case for drawing and moving the AS with the same modifier. For example if there's an empty area it should draw a new AS and with the same modifier when the mouse is over a selection, to move the AS.

This not only will save some space to the modifiers (because some users would like to use it as default modifier for track context, or another case, when you have someother action as default modifier, it wouldn't be nice to have different modifier to draw AS and another one to move it) but it would also make the editing easier/faster.

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Old 05-28-2020, 02:38 PM   #115
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Snapping when creating area selections isn't working for me. I can snap the edge of the selection to grid lines, but not to items edges, markers or the cursor.
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:52 PM   #116
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Can we lose (or at least have an option to suppress) this error message that pops up if you run the split items at at area/time selection action without having a selection active:


I'd like to make a "smart split" action that either splits at the selection or splits selected items at the cursor depending on context. This can be done pretty easily right now by stacking the split at area/time action with one of the split items at cursor actions in a custom action, except I have to click through that error message every time I want to split items at the cursor.

I really don't think the error message is necessary. If there's no selection when you run the action, then nothing should happen, no harm no foul, we don't need a warning about it.

Last edited by RobinGShore; 05-28-2020 at 02:53 PM. Reason: added image and fixed a typo
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:29 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Do Mac users not just map Control to emulate Right-Mouse? This has been working for me brilliantly for years...instead of Option-Right-Drag for AS it's just Control-Option-Drag.

Just feels like a Left-Drag option would require a whole new mode, as left-click is so deeply integrated into a million other default actions...
Left-drag for Area selection. Not left-click.

Currently the default action for Left-Drag is create Time Selection, and can’t be changed. Which I believe AS will be used most of time by most users compared to TS. Thus, we could just assign TS with modifiers.

Control-Option-Drag for AS?

So if you want to select multiple selection it would be Shift-Control-Option-Drag?
Man... that’s so much button to push for such a simple, used most of the time task.
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:40 PM   #118
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Something I think would be very useful is an option in the Area Selection mouse modifiers to pass through to the underlying context. For instance, this could make it easy to set things up so that if I l click on on an item that's currently underneath an area selection, it not only clears the selection, but also selects the underlying item and moves the edit cursor.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:01 PM   #119
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Currently the default action for Left-Drag is create Time Selection, and can’t be changed.
Sure it can…

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Old 05-28-2020, 06:06 PM   #120
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know I'm not alone in hoping to replace most of what I've been doing with time and item selections with area selection, but that can't happen if all the same preferences and options don't apply.
Even if it were to be adapted so that when 'trim behind...' is off, then items copy on top of each other like you are suggesting, it still wouldn't behave like time selection when 'trim behind' is on, because it still needs to copy the empty space, without that function available it's not really A.S IMO.

The copying of empty space is a super important part of what A.S brings to the table for a few reasons, mainly because you don't need to worry about tidying up the spot you're copying to and preparing it in any way for a copy, you just grab the area and copy it where it needs to go. Currently, even with 'trim behind' on, if you copy section A on top of section B using time selection, any items in section B that are not also in section A will be left behind, poking through.

The general consensus is that this is not correct behaviour for A.S, and I agree. The area you are copying should look exactly the same when pasted, no matter where you paste it.
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