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Old 12-08-2017, 05:46 AM   #1
kodebode
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Default A whole new world - time to reinvent audio processing architecture

Hi Justin and Team,

Strictly speaking this is not a Reaper feature request, but a proposal for an upheaval of the plugin architecture, to enable a lot more than is possible today, to lead, rather than follow.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/13005052-post17.html

At the thread/post in the link above, while giving feedback to a wonderful plugin manufacturer. it occurred to me that, with all due respect to the amazing advances in audio technologies, and those such as you and your team who have been at the forefront of these advancements, we might have exhausted the architectural limits of the current plugin architecture and going any further may need a fairly drastic re-think.

At the end of the post - which aims to rearchitect audio processing to make it easier for suppliers and consumers to focus on areas of strengths, rather than the current model where everyone(especially on the supplier side) is trying to do everything, code, user interface, user experience, user support, distribute, integrate, and obviously not excelling at everything - I propose a new model, of audio service providers and consumers, with a lot more flexible potential for integration between them.

There is not really anything that out of the ordinary about this concept, it just needs those with the ability to bring it to pass - technically, and some others to provide conceptual contributions and whatever else is needed.

I give an example - of this need, many plugins come with their own display for level, frequency, stereo spread, etc, and while I love the features of one plugin, I might prefer how audio is displayed in another plugin, which needs me to run both of them, consuming resources, my divided attention - as well as setup these plugins in the right sequence, - screen estate, CPU. at the least some of this is redundant, should I need the best of both worlds. How wonderful it would be to be able to have audio components that could provide services to one another, letting each focus on what they do best.

I give another example - your Reaper product has one excellent distinction, in-built wet/dry mixing - per plugin. Yet lots of plugins duplicate these same functions, or similarly the bypass feature, which the host also includes and as I have discovered, the bypass function is improperly implemented in some plugins. With a new standard, these common features need not be implemented in each plugin, as they are available as common services.

I know that you already have your hands full, with the Reaper product and ecosystem, but I consider from your antecedents that as a person of vision and execution, as I also am, we could take what you have already achieved and rather than follow - establish a whole new better world of audio processing by extending the current plugin paradigm, with a more extensible one with possibilities even we cannot yet imagine.

Especially as you have been the most successful at creating an extensible ecosystem to your DAW, and via the Jesusonic scripting language also provided a "plugin" for audio code, I am certain, this new world is well within your grasp and potential.

I do hope you will find the time to read all of the above and the summary in the link referred to, and it would be wonderful to hear back from you, and better still work with you to define, refine and bring some of this to pass, ultimately handing it on to others to continue evolving the opportunity.

In conclusion, it's really about - how do we recreate the - "plug - in", allowing a more flexible association between plugins and hosts - with plugins also being able to be elevated consumers kinda like hosts.

Benefits - from an end user perspective, as an example, I would not have to learn every plugins varying method of displaying frequency, but can choose my preferred supplier of frequency display, and much more - should someone else come up with some other display I prefer, change this and apply it to all plugins.

We could have console emulation as a service, applied to only specific tracks, or plugins.

Oversampling can be a service that one plugin provides to another, not something that needs to be hard coded, or included per plugin.

There's more - sample rate conversion as a plugin service, so users or plugin makers can choose, and stay in step with any inventions/developments/options in sample rate conversion, without having to touch a single line of their own code, if the option to delegate this exists.

Of course, the new world will integrate with what we have today, but take us much further than the constraints of what is fundamentally a wonderful but fairly consistent VST model, and hopefully take these concepts beyond the control/constraints of one well worn ecosystem.

If we build the new world, they will come.

We could do the same for video.

Enough said, I am sure you get the drift. I await your further contact.

Regards

Olakunle Odebode

(google will have enough information about me, which you can look up)

Last edited by kodebode; 12-08-2017 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 12-08-2017, 05:57 AM   #2
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I seem to post this often recently.








Cockos actually did make some extensions to VST standard. Guess who adopted them? Perhaps just one developer, apart from Cockos itself. Unfortunately Cockos doesn't have enough pull in the market. Hell, even Steinberg, inventors of VST, don't have enough pull to get ALL developers onboard with VST3, you still see majority of VST2 plugins being released these days. VST3 exists for nearly a decade, and it had THIS bad uptake!


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Old 12-08-2017, 06:44 AM   #3
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New or extended standards only make sense it either the existing doesn't work for a certain situation (see VST->ARA), or if an official standardizing organization sets it.

As chances are very high that a "new standard" is lacking a whole lot of definitions, the process of defining and documenting it is a very tedious task.

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Old 12-08-2017, 09:23 AM   #4
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I don't expect this to happen, but I guess the only chance for a new standard would be one that is governed by a body of "major" DAW makers.

Ideally Steinberg would donate VST3 as a basis for something that's "really cool" and well-documented.

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Old 12-10-2017, 10:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynaud View Post
Steinberg's VST3 SDK is open source: https://github.com/steinbergmedia/vst3sdk
Open source for projects that use the GPL license, which very few audio developers are going to use because it forces to release all source code to the public also under the GPL license.
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Old 12-10-2017, 10:53 PM   #6
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??? there are lots of closed source VST 3 plugin products ???

-Michael
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynaud View Post
Steinberg's VST3 SDK is open source: https://github.com/steinbergmedia/vst3sdk
I know.

With donation I meant to give up the control over the format. Now anyone may implement a VST3 plugin, but there is no organization that is steering the format.

Open source is not the same as open standard. Open source means that you can see and use the source code free of charge (yet you have mind the *very* different licening terms!), open standard means that you can adhere to standard and implement software without paying licening fees.

I wish there would be something like HTML/CSS/JavaScript in terms of an audio plugin format. Something that the bigger and smaller DAW manufacturers agree on and develop further together. VST is Steinberg's brainchild and therefore limited to their ideas, needs and means to extends it further.

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Old 12-11-2017, 01:40 AM   #8
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[QUOTE=mschnell;1923967]??? there are lots of closed source VST 3 plugin products ???/QUOTE]
The standard is open, and the SDK. The SDK is dually licensed. Only the GPL forces you to have your own code also open-sourced. The usual way is to choose Steinberg's licencse for closed-source plugins.

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Old 12-11-2017, 03:39 AM   #9
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Well, you say you would like a totally customizable plugin controller that would consolidate function and provide a particular means of display, what you've said in a roundabout way is you want a control surface, see link to thread in my sig that describes exactly what you want I believe.

Note that the first version is MIDI based, but there are plans to add OSC, Web, and whatever else comes along.

That means there could easily be a software only version that allows you to hook your personally designed interface to Reaper/VST functionality, a sort of Reaper UI replacement for specific use cases / workflows.
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:12 AM   #10
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Nice.

Its hard work but very wise because I suppose that it would make possible to vustomize ultimate audio processing tools combining all strengths of individuals into one.

I am.not a programmer but am.able to understand that this is extremely hard to do... if its possible to make this work without every developer being involved then it could happen.

Lets see but yournidea is wise and visionary
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masi View Post
dually licensed.
OK: so it is open source, as everybody can see the source code when looking at the GPLed download, but when doing a closed source pulgin, you need to register with Steinberg.

-Michael
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:47 AM   #12
kodebode
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Thanks to everyone who responded. I acknowledge that wishes are a just that - things that we would love to have. We have to wait until others also see what you also see. Sometimes that never happens, nevertheless, thanks. The good thing is that at least I have a forum to share thoughts, and see what others think. That is absolutely fantastic.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:01 PM   #13
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yes.changes are welcomed.new thnkng is needed-expansions of existing abilities maybe well considered.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:20 PM   #14
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It's a nice idea in theory, but I highly doubt commercial plugin developers are going to be interested in that. It may be essential in order to keep their algorithms secret that they release their plugins as monolithic pieces of software where the user can't pick and choose what parts to use or combine them with parts from other developers.

So IMHO it's more a business problem than a technical problem. A couple of competent audio developers could design and prototype the system pretty quickly.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:37 PM   #15
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Most viable first change for the DAW/plugin infrastructure: everything based on Linux !

-Michael
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Most viable first change for the DAW/plugin infrastructure: everything based on Linux
How would that solve the business problem? Developers may get interested if they have something to gain from being involved, I don't really think the operating system comes into play with that.
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