latency with plug ins

[chris-m]

hi everyone

new reaper user here

im having some issues with latency in the plug in GUIs and also plug in automation

for example, the GUI will lag behind whats coming out of the speakers, eg. the GR meter on a compressor will be showing at the wrong time, or Freq. analyser in the fabfilter ProQ2 will be lagging behind (i presume its lagging behind and not looking ahead somehow)

Also more importantly, when i automate bypass on a plug in filter, there will be clicks/low end pops as the filter kicks in. If i test this several times it will be slightly different every time, occasionally ill get a smooth transition

Also when i render Addictive drums, it might skip the first beat or so of the bar, only "kicking in" and playing the samples after this time

I have and RME interface using RME ASIO and a fast computer, this seems to happen whatever the buffer settings are

any ideas please?

chris

[ivansc]

Two. What else do you have going on while you are doing music? Could be causing bottlenecks.
And of course what GFX are you using and is THAT getting a workout at the same time?
Running a DAW should never be that heavy on resources in terms of GFX ue, but its always better to cover ll bases.
Have you run resplendence.com's latency checker and seen what it has to say when you are running Reaper?

Incidentally whilst you don't sound like a newb, you ARE here, so welcome to the forums!

Assume you already found the free user guide and all the excellent video tutorials?

Oh and the stupid obvious one! RME = great performance. I have 2. But you ARE using ASIO and setting the ASIO buffer setting within the RME settings window to a decent buffer, arent you?

[ashcat_lt]

What process are you using when rendering?

I had a similar problem with EZDrummer once when I tried to use the render queue. It seems like every time it goes to a new step in the queue, it reopens the project file, but then EZD needs to load all those samples into memory again, but Reaper just takes off rendering before it's done. You'll hear the individual drums come into the mix one by one as they get loaded, just like if you opened the project and immediately hit play.

Don't know for sure if that's what you've got going on. I understand that Reaper knows how to wait for plugins to load samples before starting to render, but only if the plugin tells Reaper it should, and some plugs don't do that correctly. This shouldn't happen with most other ways of rendering, though, as long as you let the plugin get itself ready before starting the render.

[chris-m]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Two. What else do you have going on while you are doing music? Could be causing bottlenecks.
And of course what GFX are you using and is THAT getting a workout at the same time?
Running a DAW should never be that heavy on resources in terms of GFX ue, but its always better to cover ll bases.
Have you run resplendence.com's latency checker and seen what it has to say when you are running Reaper?

Incidentally whilst you don't sound like a newb, you ARE here, so welcome to the forums!

Assume you already found the free user guide and all the excellent video tutorials?

Oh and the stupid obvious one! RME = great performance. I have 2. But you ARE using ASIO and setting the ASIO buffer setting within the RME settings window to a decent buffer, arent you?

hi mate. thanks for your replies

Nothing else going on in the background apart from your usual windows processes

Im away from home now and i cant remember the name of the graphics card - its a few years old but a good one - the PC is about 4 years old but was a beast when i bought it - was built for gamers really. 6 cores, loads of ram, liquid cooled etc

I havent tried that latency checker but will do that when i get home. I did have similar problems in cubase to be fair, but it just seems more pronounced now. Especially with the GUI lagging behind sometimes and the problems with bypass automation on the plug ins (automating a filter to switch on, then filter sweep HP low to high)

perhaps that will give me some useful info? Anymore ideas?

Yes to ASIO and good size buffer settings. 512 or 1024 as standard. I experimented with shorter ones but didnt make much difference.

cheers geezer! I like Reaper so far Goodbye steinberg

[chris-m]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

What process are you using when rendering?

I had a similar problem with EZDrummer once when I tried to use the render queue. It seems like every time it goes to a new step in the queue, it reopens the project file, but then EZD needs to load all those samples into memory again, but Reaper just takes off rendering before it's done. You'll hear the individual drums come into the mix one by one as they get loaded, just like if you opened the project and immediately hit play.

Don't know for sure if that's what you've got going on. I understand that Reaper knows how to wait for plugins to load samples before starting to render, but only if the plugin tells Reaper it should, and some plugs don't do that correctly. This shouldn't happen with most other ways of rendering, though, as long as you let the plugin get itself ready before starting the render.

that does sound like what is happening. Im just using the standard render to file function, whole mix, I think ive tried online too. Is that what made the difference for you, doing it online at normal speed?

cheers for your replies

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by chris-m

that does sound like what is happening. Im just using the standard render to file function, whole mix, I think ive tried online too. Is that what made the difference for you, doing it online at normal speed?

cheers for your replies

Well, no. The "fix" for me was to never use the render queue. A lot of other people use Online Render, but you said that's not helping. Do you actually have the project open long enough to load the samples before you start rendering? That should fix it. Else, try rendering the drum tracks themselves using the Render/Freeze options and then render the project. Assuming the Render/Freeze works correctly, the project render won't need the samples at all. If that doesn't work, then you might have to actually record the output of those drum tracks (right-click the record arm button, choose one of the output options) and THEN render the project. You still have to wait for the samples to load before recording, though.

Edit - I'm pretty sure there's an option in Preferences something like "inform plugins of offline status" or something. I thought it was on by default, but you might double check.

[chris-m]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Well, no. The "fix" for me was to never use the render queue. A lot of other people use Online Render, but you said that's not helping. Do you actually have the project open long enough to load the samples before you start rendering? That should fix it. Else, try rendering the drum tracks themselves using the Render/Freeze options and then render the project. Assuming the Render/Freeze works correctly, the project render won't need the samples at all. If that doesn't work, then you might have to actually record the output of those drum tracks (right-click the record arm button, choose one of the output options) and THEN render the project. You still have to wait for the samples to load before recording, though.

Edit - I'm pretty sure there's an option in Preferences something like "inform plugins of offline status" or something. I thought it was on by default, but you might double check.

ill try that. Always knew i could try freezing the tracks, and if that doesnt work of course bounce it as audio

thanks for your reply

my biggest problem is really

1) clicks when automating bypass on filter plug in on drum bus (cant think of an obvious workaround right now)

2) lagging GUI for certain plug ins. Its a bit disconcerting. I will check my latency when im home

Any more ideas anymone?

thanks

Chris

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by chris-m

1) clicks when automating bypass on filter plug in on drum bus (cant think of an obvious workaround right now)

You could try to automate the wet/dry mix with a quick ramp rather than the sudden jump of the bypass.

[ChristopherT]

Clicks when automating bypass on plug ins happen in every other DAW I have ever used when do so during audiofile playback.
ProTools does this too - and has done it for decades.
Ramping automation is the only way, and the safest way to work with sudden automation moves.


A sudden mute or fx bypass move during audio playback is the same as butting 2 files together that have extreme differences in audio - they will click unless you do a crossfade - or a fade out and in.
Same problem with sudden automation moves like a hard bypass during audio playback.


The way I work is it's ok to do sudden automation moves during silent parts of audio.
Whenever an audio file is playing and a sudden automation move is required, I use a extremely quick volume ramp out and in and then never have any clicks.
For example, say a EQ needs to be used in the middle of a vocal phrase, then automating a sudden bypass has to include a click.
The only way is to automate the eq move with a ramped automation of whatever eq boosts or cuts required.

And as far as Mutes, any mute that has to happen during a piece of audio playing, I ramp a volume change up and down to do the same job as a mute.

Sometimes I will record a mute pass, and then visually check through to find any 90 degree mutes that happen during a audio file playing something, and replace that mute section with a quick ramped volume automation

I've been working this way for decades, as I mix professionally and cannot ever have any 90 degree automation clicks during audiofile playback.

In professional recording studio situations, this ramping automation process is 100% imperative.
When mixing and you hear any clicks, one has to be totally sure that the click is not happening from automation moves during playback, so that the click can be looked for elsewhere - for EG clocking errors make clicks too.

It is a little tedious, but its a required process.

[chris-m]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

You could try to automate the wet/dry mix with a quick ramp rather than the sudden jump of the bypass.

thats a really good idea. Of course because reaper has a wt/dry mix on all plug ins as standard

[chris-m]

Originally Posted by ChristopherT

Clicks when automating bypass on plug ins happen in every other DAW I have ever used when do so during audiofile playback.
ProTools does this too - and has done it for decades.
Ramping automation is the only way, and the safest way to work with sudden automation moves.


A sudden mute or fx bypass move during audio playback is the same as butting 2 files together that have extreme differences in audio - they will click unless you do a crossfade - or a fade out and in.
Same problem with sudden automation moves like a hard bypass during audio playback.


The way I work is it's ok to do sudden automation moves during silent parts of audio.
Whenever an audio file is playing and a sudden automation move is required, I use a extremely quick volume ramp out and in and then never have any clicks.
For example, say a EQ needs to be used in the middle of a vocal phrase, then automating a sudden bypass has to include a click.
The only way is to automate the eq move with a ramped automation of whatever eq boosts or cuts required.

And as far as Mutes, any mute that has to happen during a piece of audio playing, I ramp a volume change up and down to do the same job as a mute.

Sometimes I will record a mute pass, and then visually check through to find any 90 degree mutes that happen during a audio file playing something, and replace that mute section with a quick ramped volume automation

I've been working this way for decades, as I mix professionally and cannot ever have any 90 degree automation clicks during audiofile playback.

In professional recording studio situations, this ramping automation process is 100% imperative.
When mixing and you hear any clicks, one has to be totally sure that the click is not happening from automation moves during playback, so that the click can be looked for elsewhere - for EG clocking errors make clicks too.

It is a little tedious, but its a required process.

thanks for the post. I seemed to get away with it much more in cubase but i will take this into consideration.

Any ideas about the plug in GUI lagging anyone? then im all good really. Will do the latency test when im back home after christmas

[ericzang]

Concerning bypass without clicks (soft bypass), you may also be interested in this just for auditioning/comparison purposes (not for automation), you can download these commands written by spk77 to allow you to toggle the Wet knob via MIDI controller or computer keyboard:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nL...rLMAikIDqncO_t

The commands are:
spk77_Adjust wet parameter of floating and focused track FX - only works via MIDI (assign it a midi command in the Action List)

spk77_Adjust wet parameter of floating and focused track FX to min & max (my own simple mod) - can be used as a toggle via computer keyboard when put in a cycle action (included as Wet Toggle.INI - import this in the Cycle Action editor, then assign it a key in the Action List)

Another option is to use Heda's excellent Track Inspector, which has soft bypass.
https://reaper.hector-corcin.com/app/track-inspector
Lots of great features worth learning how to use.


About GUI lag, I also often use buffer size 1024, and may have high latency inducing plugins adding to this. I do experience gui lag. A simple workaround that usually works is to enable Record on the track. Remember to disable Record when you're finished, because it may use more cpu when enabled.

Those of you that do not experience gui lag, do you still have good gui sync even at high latency and with high latency plugs (in a dense project if that makes any difference)?