Old 12-29-2017, 09:23 AM   #1
tompad
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fjugesta, Sweden
Posts: 811
Default De-verb in Reaper?

Hi!

I viewed a youtube-clip with Simon Larkin talking about an
interesting method to remove reverb from a recorded track
with just Reaper plugins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c57YnS7ppA

I liked it and thought about making this without doing a
duplicate of the track. If I make 2 sends from the recorded
track like this:

Send 1 (Audio 1+2->Audio 1+2)
Send 2 (Audio 1+2->Audio 3+4)

Both sends go to a bus called De-Verb with Master send Checked.
(the recorded tracks Master send is unchecked)

Now when I phaseshift the Send 2 the sound will be canceled out....
I thought....but no, the recorded track plays thru.

If this could work my next step would be to put a compressor
on the insert on the De-Verb-bus and let the sound from 3+4
go thru it and let it manipulate the sound just like Simons
example.

However until I manage the cancelation after phaseshift it will not work.
Anyone have any idea why cancelation not work? It should...or?

Regards
TompaD
__________________
ToDoList Obliques MusicMath Donation Some of mine and my friends music projects on Spotify
tompad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2017, 10:06 AM   #2
pepe44
Human being with feelings
 
pepe44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Portugal
Posts: 1,827
Default

they cancel if you set both send and receivers to 1+2...
what is missing there is, insert the compressor on the submix track, set the detector to Auxilary L+R and there you have your receiving 3+4 from send 2
pepe44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2017, 11:28 AM   #3
Jason Lyon
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
Default

Cleanest way I can think of is:

Leave Master send on.
Make new track, call it Deverb Buss and send to it.
Flip the phase of either the receive or the track itself - no sound. Add the fast-attack compressor.
Then you can switch your Deverb Buss in and out by just muting the track.

It's a cute trick, but I think it's only really useful as an emergency rescue measure.
Jason Lyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2017, 12:20 PM   #4
tompad
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fjugesta, Sweden
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lyon View Post
Cleanest way I can think of is:

Leave Master send on.
Make new track, call it Deverb Buss and send to it.
Flip the phase of either the receive or the track itself - no sound.
I think there is something wrong...because I got sound, its much less volume
but it still sounds.
__________________
ToDoList Obliques MusicMath Donation Some of mine and my friends music projects on Spotify
tompad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2017, 12:23 PM   #5
tompad
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fjugesta, Sweden
Posts: 811
Default

Nevermind! I changed send to Pre-FX and now its no sound.

Thanks pepe44 and Jason! I go with Jasons example - nice and clean!
__________________
ToDoList Obliques MusicMath Donation Some of mine and my friends music projects on Spotify
tompad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2017, 03:04 PM   #6
Jason Lyon
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tompad View Post
Nevermind! I changed send to Pre-FX and now its no sound.

Thanks pepe44 and Jason! I go with Jasons example - nice and clean!
Better to use the standard Post-Fader Post-Pan send/receive setting. You just have to keep the fader on the buss track exactly at unity to get the phase cancellation.

With a Post-Post send/receive the Deverb buss will get everything you do to the original track.

For instance, with a Pre-FX send if you decide to add EQ or compression to the original track, it will play that altered version but the Deverb version will be using the uneffected version - so you won't get proper phase cancellation. The two waveforms have to be totally identical.

Actually. pepe's approach might be more flexible for use with multiple "deverbs" on different tracks.
Jason Lyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2017, 04:19 PM   #7
tompad
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fjugesta, Sweden
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lyon View Post
Better to use the standard Post-Fader Post-Pan send/receive setting. You just have to keep the fader on the buss track exactly at unity to get the phase cancellation.
...but when using Post-Fader the sound didnīt get canceled, I checked that faders was set to 0.00 on every place!
__________________
ToDoList Obliques MusicMath Donation Some of mine and my friends music projects on Spotify
tompad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2017, 06:25 AM   #8
Jason Lyon
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tompad View Post
...but when using Post-Fader the sound didnīt get canceled, I checked that faders was set to 0.00 on every place!
It works fine at this end. Try checking through your settings:
Master send on for both original track and deverb buss track.
Phase reversed on either the deverb buss track or the receive to it (not both).
Fader on deverb buss track set to unity.
Jason Lyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2017, 02:53 AM   #9
tompad
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fjugesta, Sweden
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lyon View Post
It works fine at this end. Try checking through your settings:
Master send on for both original track and deverb buss track.
Check!
Quote:
Phase reversed on either the deverb buss track or the receive to it (not both).
Check!
Quote:
Fader on deverb buss track set to unity.
Check!

...and I get decrease in volume only - no total cancelation. (With Post-Fader)

With Pre-Fader(Post FX) and Pre-Fader it works....

Itīs very strange - the laws of fysics dont apply to Post-Fader!
__________________
ToDoList Obliques MusicMath Donation Some of mine and my friends music projects on Spotify
tompad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2017, 03:37 AM   #10
pepe44
Human being with feelings
 
pepe44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Portugal
Posts: 1,827
Default

send us you rpp file...no need for other stuff in the session, just the rpp
pepe44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2017, 06:40 AM   #11
tompad
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fjugesta, Sweden
Posts: 811
Default

Ok Pepe44, here is my .rpp
__________________
ToDoList Obliques MusicMath Donation Some of mine and my friends music projects on Spotify

Last edited by tompad; 11-12-2019 at 12:00 PM.
tompad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2018, 09:15 PM   #12
chriscomfort
Human being with feelings
 
chriscomfort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,805
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
they cancel if you set both send and receivers to 1+2...
what is missing there is, insert the compressor on the submix track, set the detector to Auxilary L+R and there you have your receiving 3+4 from send 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompad View Post
Check!
Check!
Check!

...and I get decrease in volume only - no total cancelation. (With Post-Fader)

With Pre-Fader(Post FX) and Pre-Fader it works....

Itīs very strange - the laws of fysics dont apply to Post-Fader!
You skipped right over pepe44's first reply. The answer is in there.

Basically, it's easier if you just follow the video. Duplicate the track and put the compressor on the second, out of phase, track.
__________________
http://chriscomfortmusic.com
chriscomfort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2018, 10:12 PM   #13
robgb
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 373
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tompad View Post
Ok Pepe44, here is my .rpp
You can get SPL Deverb for $19 at Plug-in Alliance right now. Save a lot of effort.
robgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2018, 10:27 AM   #14
tompad
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fjugesta, Sweden
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscomfort View Post
You skipped right over pepe44's first reply. The answer is in there.
I got it working with Jason Lyons example, I will test pepe44's example also.
But before that I wanna know why there is no cancelation using Post-Fader,
only when using Pre-Fader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscomfort View Post
Basically, it's easier if you just follow the video. Duplicate the track and put the compressor on the second, out of phase, track.
Yes maybe its easier following the video and duplicate the track,
BUT my intention was to see if it was possible to do without duplicated track.
__________________
ToDoList Obliques MusicMath Donation Some of mine and my friends music projects on Spotify
tompad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2018, 10:34 AM   #15
tompad
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fjugesta, Sweden
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robgb View Post
You can get SPL Deverb for $19 at Plug-in Alliance right now. Save a lot of effort.
Sure, but I wanted to test this effect with the plugins I already have.
And it worked - the question right now is why a track that I send to another
phaseshifted track (without FX) dont get fully canceled when I use Post-Fader
(but fully canceled when using Pre-Fader)
__________________
ToDoList Obliques MusicMath Donation Some of mine and my friends music projects on Spotify
tompad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2018, 10:52 AM   #16
Jason Lyon
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
Default

Does the attached help?
Whack a media item on the "Blah" track and try it out. There's a compressor on the "Dvb of Blah" track, but it's default-set, so success should mean total phase cancellation - ie silence.

If it doesn't work, I think there must be something going on with your preference settings.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tbw0ulzv8c...%20Eg.rpp?dl=0

Last edited by Jason Lyon; 01-02-2018 at 10:57 AM.
Jason Lyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2018, 11:15 AM   #17
tompad
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fjugesta, Sweden
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lyon View Post
Does the attached help?
Whack a media item on the "Blah" track and try it out. There's a compressor on the "Dvb of Blah" track, but it's default-set, so success should mean total phase cancellation - ie silence.

If it doesn't work, I think there must be something going on with your preference settings.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tbw0ulzv8c...%20Eg.rpp?dl=0
Thanks Jason!

This works - very strange, because I have set up my channels exactly the
same way!

One other thing I feel is strange is that the meter on track Blah show -0.1
and the meter on track DVb of Blah show +1.4 - shouldn't both show -0.1??
(This is then I turn of the compressor and only checking the cancelation)
__________________
ToDoList Obliques MusicMath Donation Some of mine and my friends music projects on Spotify
tompad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2018, 11:35 AM   #18
Jason Lyon
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tompad View Post
Thanks Jason!

This works - very strange, because I have set up my channels exactly the
same way!

One other thing I feel is strange is that the meter on track Blah show -0.1
and the meter on track DVb of Blah show +1.4 - shouldn't both show -0.1??
(This is then I turn of the compressor and only checking the cancelation)
Ah good. Dunno about the metering issue - afaic, if you don't hear anything, it basically works. Plus, I haven't really played around much with the compressor settings to test the practical effectiveness of the idea.

As I said above, I think pepe's approach might be more useful if you want the flexibility to use multiple "Deverbs" with different comp settings on separate tracks. Probably worth exploring because you won't want the crispy attack/release you'd use on drums to apply to vocals or strings.

But if you just want a blanket approach to drain the soupiness out of one track or an entire mix, you can just buss it all into one like this.

Either way, transients are funny beasts - this is a useful idea, but it isn't a silver bullet...

As far as possible, I'd stick with the old wisdom - you can't unring a bell.

Last edited by Jason Lyon; 01-02-2018 at 01:40 PM.
Jason Lyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.