Old 10-19-2018, 11:19 AM   #1
3buddhas
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Default audio & midi from single keyboard take

​Greetings. A newbie here, glad to get on the forum.
Day nine of evaluation. Digging Reaper. Seeing the power of it. Intermittently flummoxed by its complexity, as with this question: How to record audio and midi from a single keyboard take? I'm halfway there. Have successfully recorded audio. No midi yet.
Profuse apologies for the newbie mistakes I'm likely making, including but not limited to posting this in the wrong place and asking a question's been answered so many times everybody on the forum's sick of it.
Cast of characters:
Roland FP-4 88-key midi keyboard (here called "Roland")
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 interface (here called "Scarlett")
Reaper (here called "The Bible & The Koran." No, let's just call it "Reaper")
Approaching this like menage-a-trois, two-couples therapy.
Couple 1, Roland & Scarlett
Couple 2, Scarlett & Reaper
Happily, in both couples the partners ARE talking to each other. But clearly they've got issues.
The config
• Two 1/4" from Roland L/R Outs to Scarlett 1/4" frontface Ins. Roland volume about 35%, Scarlett preamps gain each 50%
• One 5-pin MIDI from Roland MIDI Out to Scarlett MIDI In
• Roland's internal MIDI transmit channel of the Upper tone set to Channel 1, Lower tone set to Channel 2 (I don't yet understand this upper/lower tone/zone thing. This is a blind guess.)
• Scarlett is giving Roland a little green front-panel MIDI light, so would seem she's willing, somewhat.
• Reaper track 1.
• Record Monitoring On
• Input Stereo | Input 1 / Input 2
• Master send ticked
• Parent channels 1-2
• Track channels 2
• Audio Hardware Outputs | Hardware Output 1 / Hardware Output 2 (I don't yet understand the purpose of output setup. And as I double-check and triple-check this setting it seems Reaper is changing the label from Ouput to Channel to Output ... ???)
• Reaper track 2.
• Record Monitoring On
• Input MIDI | Focusrite USB MIDI | All Channels
• Master send ticked
• Parent channels 1-2
• Track channels 2
• MIDI Hardware Outputs | Focusrite USB MIDI |Send to original channels (Still, I don't yet understand output setup.)

So, digging Reaper. Felt deceived by Focusrite selling me on Pro Tools First add-in to Scarlett, only to find on installing Pro Tools that I get exactly three projects. That those projects apparently have to live on Avid's cloud. That the software is wrapped in multiple layers of, some apparently third-party, licensing protection. Sensing the Reaper community has a different approach. To borrow from John Mellencamp, I need a DAW that won't drive me crazy, and a provider that knows the meaning of "hey, hit the highway." Your as-sensed-by-me knowledge and patience and libertarian spirit are appreciated in advance of any replies.
cheers
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:29 PM   #2
ernzo
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I've got no clue:
But if the MIDI LED is going Blink-Blink on her, the main suspect might be Miss Scarlett's relationship with Reaper,
or why not the Upper/Lower tone thing..

Also it would be convenient to clarify if Mr Roland and Miss Scarlett speak the same language, bed-business you know..

In any case this might qualify for the "Best New User of the Month" awards.


PS: Just stick around, lightning is sure to strike.

Last edited by ernzo; 10-19-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:02 PM   #3
ashcat_lt
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We usually don't need Hardware Outputs (audio or midi) on individual tracks like that.

The audio should flow up through the Master track and that should usually (automatically) have a Hardware Output going to your main interface outputs. The HWO from the individual track bypasses the Master itself, goes straight to the interface output, but in this case it mixes with what's coming from the Master. It is redundant, unnecessary, and unwanted for this usage.

The MIDI HWO is maybe debatable. You only need that if you want to send the MIDI back to your keyboard in order to use its sounds rather than a VSTi or other plugin instrument. You're already recording the audio from the keyboard, so unless you want to later change the sound or maybe edit the MIDI and then rerecord the audio or stuff like that you don't need the HWO. To do that, though, you'd need a 5 pin MIDI cable from the Scarlette's Midi Out to the Roland's Midi In. And then you'd have to be a little careful about MIDI feedback.

None of that will stop anything from recording or even really hurt anything, but it's not helping, kind of wasting your time to set up and will almost certainly cause confusion at some point down the line. If/when you need a HWO on a track, it will be pretty obvious. Until/unless that day comes, just don't bother.

But it actually seems to me like things should be recording just fine, except that you don't actually mention Arming the tracks for record. It says "Record Monitoring On", but are they both actually armed to record? Can't really think of any other reason it wouldn't work. Maybe show us some screenshots of like the TCP, MCP, and the Preferences|MIDI|Device screen?
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Old 10-19-2018, 08:00 PM   #4
SonicAxiom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3buddhas View Post

​Cast of characters:
Roland FP-4 88-key midi keyboard (here called "Roland")
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 interface (here called "Scarlett")
Reaper (here called "The Bible & The Koran." No, let's just call it "Reaper")
Approaching this like menage-a-trois, two-couples therapy.
Couple 1, Roland & Scarlett
Couple 2, Scarlett & Reaper
Happily, in both couples the partners ARE talking to each other. But clearly they've got issues.
The config
• Two 1/4" from Roland L/R Outs to Scarlett 1/4" frontface Ins. Roland volume about 35%, Scarlett preamps gain each 50%
• One 5-pin MIDI from Roland MIDI Out to Scarlett MIDI In
• Roland's internal MIDI transmit channel of the Upper tone set to Channel 1, Lower tone set to Channel 2 (I don't yet understand this upper/lower tone/zone thing. This is a blind guess.)
• Scarlett is giving Roland a little green front-panel MIDI light, so would seem she's willing, somewhat.
• Reaper track 1.
• Record Monitoring On
• Input Stereo | Input 1 / Input 2
• Master send ticked
• Parent channels 1-2
• Track channels 2
• Audio Hardware Outputs | Hardware Output 1 / Hardware Output 2 (I don't yet understand the purpose of output setup. And as I double-check and triple-check this setting it seems Reaper is changing the label from Ouput to Channel to Output ... ???)
• Reaper track 2.
• Record Monitoring On
• Input MIDI | Focusrite USB MIDI | All Channels
• Master send ticked
• Parent channels 1-2
• Track channels 2
• MIDI Hardware Outputs | Focusrite USB MIDI |Send to original channels (Still, I don't yet understand output setup.)
1. connect both MIDI in and out on the Roland and the Scarlett with two MIDI cables (Roland MIDI out -> Scarlett MIDI in and vica versa).

2. enable Scarlett MIDI in and out in Reaper preferences -> MIDI devices. Also make sure to enable receiving controller data on the Scarlett's MIDI input.

3. make sure to have all of Scarlett's audio inputs and outputs enabled in Reaper preferences -> audio device setup page.

4. you already connected the Roland's audio outs to two of the Scarlett's audio ins. Set the output volume on the Roland as high as possible without overloading the Scarlett's input (causing red flashing). A golden rule is to provide as much gain as possible at the outputs of audio devices. By this, you are able to leave the input gain of the following device as low as possible, avoiding adding more noise to the signal. A gain knob amplifies more as you turn it up more but it also adds more noise the more you crank it up. Only if the input is clipping even with the Scarlett's gain knob turned completely down, reduce the output of the sending device until no clipping occurs and until you get a signal level of around -10 dB for the loudest parts.

5. the keyboard and the interface are now ready to operate. Next, launch Reaper. You can record the audio or the MIDI data of the Roland (or both). Best option is to record MIDI at first because MIDI data has special editing options that audio doesn't offer. To record MIDI, create a new track, set its input to something like "Scarlett MIDI in", record-arm the track and enable input monitoring. You should now see MIDI activity on the track's meters when you press some keys on the Roland. You won't probably hear any sound, though, because MIDI data itself can't be heard. You have to select the Scarlett as the hardware MIDI output of the track. This routes the incoming MIDI data back to the Scarlett and from there back into the Roland. Now the Roland should create sound. To listen to this sound, create another track and set its input to Stereo Scarlett In 1/2 (provided that you have the Roland's audio output connected to those). Record-arm the track and enable input monitoring. No need to define a hardware audio output! Ausio will run through Reaper's master track and will be output to the Scarlett where you can listen to this signal via headphones or feed it to a paor of monitors.

It's important to understand how the MIDI data travels through your system in contrast to the audio. When you press a key on a keyboard that has inbuilt sound generators, MIDI data telegrams are created and are immediately sent to the keyboards internal sound generator and then the generated sound is output through the corresponding audio outputs at the rear of the keyboard while the MIDI data packets are also output via the MIDI or USB connector. In the scenario described above, the MIDI data arrived at the track input in Reaper and was immediately output through a MIDI hardware output (Scarlett), returning it to the keyboard where the same MIDI data had already been sent to the internal sound generator directly when a key got pressed, thus the same note arrived a second time (with a very small amount of delay/latency) probably causing some sort of "doubled sound".

In case you are connecting a keyboard to a computer/daw that is not only receiving but also passing through the MIDI data back to the same keyboard, you have to make sure to set this keyboard to a special mode called "local off" (in its MIDI menu). This means that the normal, direct MIDI connection between the keyboard's keys and its own internal sound generator will get switched off temporarily. This is not bad at all but rather desirable because the MIDI data still gets sent out via the USB or MIDI output, arrives at the daw, can be sent back to the keyboard and will then actually create the sound (while input-monitoring when playing live or while playing back recorded MIDI data). Instead of travelling directly from the pressed key to the keyboard's sound generator, the MIDI data simply travels a slightly bigger "loop" through the daw before it comes back (virtually immediately) to the keyboard to produce the desired sound. When you are using the keyboard without the computer (and Reaper), you might wanna set z back to "Local on" to get sound while you press keys as the MIDI data now cannot travel the "loop" through the daw and come back into the keyboard to produce the sound. "Local on" simply re-establishes the direct wiring between the keys and the internal sound generator.

Apparently, your keyboard is set up in a way to produce MIDI data on MIDI channel 1 when you press keys in the lower half of the keyboard and data on MIDI channel 2 if you press keys in the upper half (this is calles keyboard split). This is usually not desirable and you should change that in the Roland's MIDI menu/setup so that it always outputs MIDI data on MIDI channel 1 for all keys.

Please ask if anything wasn't phrased in understandable words

.
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:03 AM   #5
3buddhas
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ashcat_lt, ernzo, SonicAxiom,
effing brilliant. I'm not worthy!
OK, to cases.
"We usually don't need Hardware Outputs (audio or midi) on individual tracks like that." Happy to hear it.
"...except that you don't actually mention Arming the tracks for record." Didn't mention it, but did do it. Thanks for checking.
"1. connect both MIDI in and out on the Roland and the Scarlett with two MIDI cables (Roland MIDI out -> Scarlett MIDI in and vica versa)." Writing my question post, I thought 'no need for MIDI back in' so took it out. Now it's back in, per your suggestion. Many thanks for detailing the spaghetti reasoning (further down in #5), which now makes perfect sense to me.
"2. enable Scarlett MIDI in and out in Reaper preferences -> MIDI devices." I've set Input: MIDI -> Focusrite USB MIDI -> All Channels
"Also make sure to enable receiving controller data on the Scarlett's MIDI input." I've got Reaper Preferences -> MIDI Devices -> MIDI inputs to make available -> Focusrite USB MIDI Enabled+Control ID:0. Also MIDI outputs to make available -> Focusrite USB MIDI Enabled ID:1 Below that all boxes ticked except Stop/stopped seek. Much of that to me at this point GREEK. As it should be. I Ching Hexagram 3 "Difficulty At The Beginning." Just part of being new to a thing.
"3. make sure to have all of Scarlett's audio inputs and outputs enabled in Reaper preferences -> audio device setup page." It would be helpful for me to give a screen shot, no? But I've never done a screen shot! That'll be a different thread, I suspect, a different newbie training. Here in Tech-English. Reaper Preferences -> Audio device settings -> Audio system ASIO -> ASIO Driver: Focusrite USB ASIO -> Enable inputs: first1:Input1, last2:Input2 -> Output range: first1:Output1, last2:Output2 -> Request sample rate ticked 44100, Request block size ticked 512. Below these all boxes ticked except Ignore ASIO reset messages.
"4..." being SonicAxiom's much-appreciated-by-me patient lesson in setting input levels. What you advise makes sense to me and I've set the Roland much hotter. Even fully hot. Just yesterday I heard on YouTube that -18 dB corresponds to 0 dB on the old VU meters,, so constitutes a kind of sweet spot. Your advice would put the "hottest spots" a bit higher than that, at -10 bB, so most of the signal would come in around that sweet spot, if I understand. Makes sense.
"5. the keyboard and the interface are now ready to operate. Next, launch Reaper. You can record the audio or the MIDI data of the Roland (or both). Best option is to record MIDI at first because MIDI data has special editing options that audio doesn't offer. To record MIDI, create a new track, set its input to something like "Scarlett MIDI in", record-arm the track and enable input monitoring. You should now see MIDI activity on the track's meters when you press some keys on the Roland." NO ACTIVITY ON THE MIDI TRACK'S METERS. If I arm the audio track I get activity on the meters. I just thought maybe my MIDI cables aren't right, so checked that Roland MIDI Out is going to Scarlett MIDI In and it is. Scarlett MIDI Out to Roland MIDI In, and it is.
Further under 5., SonicAxiom's remarkably clear explanation of MIDI signal routing, "you have to make sure to set this keyboard to a special mode called "local off"." I've now done that, and understand the reason for it. Before turning it off the Roland keys were sounding through the Roland backside speaker. Now they're not sounding. Toggled local control back on, keys sound. This with the Reaper track armed. Seems the MIDI signal's not getting all the way round back to the Roland, huh?
"... you should change that [upper/lower tone] in the Roland's MIDI menu/setup so that it always outputs MIDI data on MIDI channel 1 for all keys." Sweet tip. So I've set upper AND lower to Channel 1. Same result. No activity at armed Reaper track monitors. No sound at Roland keyboard.
But it feels like this is GONNA work. It wants to. There's still some little box not ticked somewhere.
Grateful you've taken such time and trouble,
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:46 AM   #6
ernzo
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This should be very Simple.

No need to mess with Audio if it's workin,
or with Scarlett's MIDI Out we're not gonna use yet.


Roland Midi Out > Scarlett Midi in; Scarlett > Reaper

(Make Sure Scarlett is Enabled as a MIDI Device in Reaper Preferences Menu)

New Track,
Select Scarlett as the Midi Input, (All Channels, or Channel 1?)
Enable Monitoring,
Arm for Recording..
Done.


If this is not working, but Scarlett's MIDI LED is blinking,
I say something is being lost along the way between Scarlett and Reaper.

Maybe some hidden menu in Scarlett's configuration is avoiding MIDI data to be routed from the MIDI-In to the USB-Out?

Maybe some hidden menu in Reaper's configuration is making Reaper to not acknowdelge/route incoming MIDI signals from Scarlett?

I've never used old-school MIDI on an audio interface,
so maybe I'm missing out something Basic tho..


The other solution is simply to connect the Roland directly to the computer through USB,
but ofc this could have more Latency, or a more Inconsistent latency in comparison.
(quality of drivers is a factor here..)

Have you tried going Direct USB?

Or do you really need using the MIDI system?


In any case I'm sure it's a matter of time before a real informed Answer comes along..

PS:
Have you been successful using this set-up with any DAW other than Reaper?

Last edited by ernzo; 10-20-2018 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:50 AM   #7
SonicAxiom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3buddhas View Post
ashcat_lt, ernzo, SonicAxiom,
effing brilliant. I'm not worthy!
OK, to cases.
"We usually don't need Hardware Outputs (audio or midi) on individual tracks like that." Happy to hear it.
"...except that you don't actually mention Arming the tracks for record." Didn't mention it, but did do it. Thanks for checking.
"1. connect both MIDI in and out on the Roland and the Scarlett with two MIDI cables (Roland MIDI out -> Scarlett MIDI in and vica versa)." Writing my question post, I thought 'no need for MIDI back in' so took it out. Now it's back in, per your suggestion. Many thanks for detailing the spaghetti reasoning (further down in #5), which now makes perfect sense to me.
"2. enable Scarlett MIDI in and out in Reaper preferences -> MIDI devices." I've set Input: MIDI -> Focusrite USB MIDI -> All Channels
"Also make sure to enable receiving controller data on the Scarlett's MIDI input." I've got Reaper Preferences -> MIDI Devices -> MIDI inputs to make available -> Focusrite USB MIDI Enabled+Control ID:0. Also MIDI outputs to make available -> Focusrite USB MIDI Enabled ID:1 Below that all boxes ticked except Stop/stopped seek. Much of that to me at this point GREEK. As it should be. I Ching Hexagram 3 "Difficulty At The Beginning." Just part of being new to a thing.
"3. make sure to have all of Scarlett's audio inputs and outputs enabled in Reaper preferences -> audio device setup page." It would be helpful for me to give a screen shot, no? But I've never done a screen shot! That'll be a different thread, I suspect, a different newbie training. Here in Tech-English. Reaper Preferences -> Audio device settings -> Audio system ASIO -> ASIO Driver: Focusrite USB ASIO -> Enable inputs: first1:Input1, last2:Input2 -> Output range: first1:Output1, last2:Output2 -> Request sample rate ticked 44100, Request block size ticked 512. Below these all boxes ticked except Ignore ASIO reset messages.
"4..." being SonicAxiom's much-appreciated-by-me patient lesson in setting input levels. What you advise makes sense to me and I've set the Roland much hotter. Even fully hot. Just yesterday I heard on YouTube that -18 dB corresponds to 0 dB on the old VU meters,, so constitutes a kind of sweet spot. Your advice would put the "hottest spots" a bit higher than that, at -10 bB, so most of the signal would come in around that sweet spot, if I understand. Makes sense.
"5. the keyboard and the interface are now ready to operate. Next, launch Reaper. You can record the audio or the MIDI data of the Roland (or both). Best option is to record MIDI at first because MIDI data has special editing options that audio doesn't offer. To record MIDI, create a new track, set its input to something like "Scarlett MIDI in", record-arm the track and enable input monitoring. You should now see MIDI activity on the track's meters when you press some keys on the Roland." NO ACTIVITY ON THE MIDI TRACK'S METERS. If I arm the audio track I get activity on the meters. I just thought maybe my MIDI cables aren't right, so checked that Roland MIDI Out is going to Scarlett MIDI In and it is. Scarlett MIDI Out to Roland MIDI In, and it is.
Further under 5., SonicAxiom's remarkably clear explanation of MIDI signal routing, "you have to make sure to set this keyboard to a special mode called "local off"." I've now done that, and understand the reason for it. Before turning it off the Roland keys were sounding through the Roland backside speaker. Now they're not sounding. Toggled local control back on, keys sound. This with the Reaper track armed. Seems the MIDI signal's not getting all the way round back to the Roland, huh?
"... you should change that [upper/lower tone] in the Roland's MIDI menu/setup so that it always outputs MIDI data on MIDI channel 1 for all keys." Sweet tip. So I've set upper AND lower to Channel 1. Same result. No activity at armed Reaper track monitors. No sound at Roland keyboard.
But it feels like this is GONNA work. It wants to. There's still some little box not ticked somewhere.
Grateful you've taken such time and trouble,
glad you could already tweak a few of your settings even though you got no MIDI coming through yet. I think we'll fix that soon

By the way, please make yourself familiar with the quoting system of this forum. Your latest reply is extremely hard to read It's virtually impossible to discern what you quoted from another post and what are your comments to it. I'm sure there must be a forum help somewhere that explains this.

Now, back to the topic. I have the impression that your cabling is ok. Does the Scarlett come with some kind of control panel to edit its settings? If yes, can it be accessed by hitting the "ASIO configuration" button in Reaper prefs -> Audio -> Device? Make sure that the interface is set to your preferred Sample rate (like 44100 Hz) and that you also choose this sample rate on the Reaper audio prefs page and in project properties. Sample rates must match at all three locations!

In one post you stated that some led would flash green if you hitted keys on the Roland. Was that an led on the Scarlett which shows MIDI activity going on? To correctly enable Scarlett's MIDI input including controller messages, double-click the entry "Scarlett" and have the first two check-marks checked:



Scarlett's MIDI output has to be enabled, too, but only a single check-mark is necessary. That's all, basically. You should now be able to receive MIDI from the Roland and if you have a track configured to receive from the Scarlett MIDI port (all channels), have it record-armed and its input monitor enabled, you should see MIDI activity on the track's meter.

Next thing is to route this MIDI back out to the Roland to produce the actual sound from that MIDI data: Open the track's send/receives dialog and choose MIDI Hardware output "Scarlett MIDI" and "Send original channels" and the MIDI should return to the Roland, producing sound. Does this work on your side?

.
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Old 10-20-2018, 02:59 PM   #8
3buddhas
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Again, many thanks for your attention to this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
Your latest reply is extremely hard to read
I do hope this is more readable. Nice emoji. Like smiling through gritted, keyboard teeth. Apologies, thanks for the correction. Please do lemme know where I'm being too amateur for tolerance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
Make sure that the interface is set to your preferred Sample rate (like 44100 Hz) and that you also choose this sample rate on the Reaper audio prefs page and in project properties. Sample rates must match at all three locations!
Got it. See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
In one post you stated that some led would flash green if you hitted keys on the Roland. Was that an led on the Scarlett which shows MIDI activity going on?
Steady green, yeah. Scarlett user guide (only 16 pages pdf) says this means Scarlett is receiving MIDI signal. In Reaper prefs clicking ASIO Configuration button gets that little side-dialog with sample and buffer. I find no more elaborate Scarlett control panel, but this screenshot seems to show that Reaper's prefs and ASIO's are agreed on sample rate, no?



If that's two of three, Project Settings below I think should make three of three conformed. Interesting to me that while Project Settings had the same 44.1Khz sample rate specified, the tick box in front of it, Project Sample Rate, was NOT ticked. So I ticked it. Doing that didn't solve this question though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
To correctly enable Scarlett's MIDI input including controller messages, double-click the entry "Scarlett" and have the first two check-marks checked:
OK, here's mine.



Of course as I'm going through these intelligent suggestions I'm asking myself what the answer really is. I don't yet know, but if I had to guess just now I'd surmise something to do with Mr. Roland. Some arcane setting there, buried. I have the hard copy manual and've been forcing myself to read the (possibly) relevant sections. Maybe more on that later. To continue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
Scarlett's MIDI output has to be enabled, too, but only a single check-mark is necessary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
You should now be able to receive MIDI from the Roland and if you have a track configured to receive from the Scarlett MIDI port (all channels), have it record-armed and its input monitor enabled, you should see MIDI activity on the track's meter.
No activity yet at the meters of Reaper's armed midi track set to receive Channel 1 from Scarlett. Previously I'd set track input to All Channels, but neither setting seems the cure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
Next thing is to route this MIDI back out to the Roland to produce the actual sound from that MIDI data: Open the track's send/receives dialog and choose MIDI Hardware output "Scarlett MIDI" and "Send original channels" and the MIDI should return to the Roland, producing sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
Does this work on your side?
Sadly, no. But this has been for me a very valuable master-class tutorial and I'm grateful for the help already offered. Any further ideas you might have are welcome.
cheers

.[/QUOTE]
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:18 PM   #9
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Wow! Great, structured and detailed post, 3buddhas! This is exactly how it's done
Will probably make it a lot easier to hunt down you issue. Unfortunately, I won't have the time to give further advice right now (after midnight in Germany) but will come back soon
Other folks might chime in to help in the meantime.
Cheers!

.
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:59 PM   #10
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maybe try loading ReaControlMIDI as an input FX on the MIDI track and "Show log" to see if there is any sort of MIDI data from the keyboard?

Edit:- and as Ernzo mentioned, it'd be interesting to see if it works with a MIDI USB port if your keyboard has one
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Old 10-20-2018, 05:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy View Post
maybe try loading ReaControlMIDI as an input FX on the MIDI track and "Show log" to see if there is any sort of MIDI data from the keyboard?
Good suggestion. I find no data in that log.

Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy View Post
Edit:- and as Ernzo mentioned, it'd be interesting to see if it works with a MIDI USB port if your keyboard has one
Yes, will do that experiment too before long. Will post results.

I'm wondering if the Scarlett user guide might be imprecise in saying the green MIDI light "Illuminates when MIDI data is received at the MIDI In port." Suppose it means only that Scarlett is PREPARED to receive MIDI data there. Then I'd want to look further at Roland's MIDI fertility. Whether he's actually sending signal. And your proposed USB experiment should tell me something about that.
cheers
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:50 AM   #12
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Suspecting the Roland FP-4 has not actually been sending MIDI signal to the Scarlett, despite Scarlett's frontpanel MIDI light being greenlit, following friendly forum suggestions ...
• I disconnected the 5-pin MIDI cables and connected Roland directly to one of the PC's USB 3 ports. The PC gave its four-tone sound indicating it saw the Roland, but the keyboard didn't appear in File Explorer.
• Following the Roland manual's advice in event of trouble, I downloaded the original driver and successfully installed it. The PC again sounded its recognition of the keyboard, but again the keyboard didn't appear in File Explorer.
• Reaper shows no special recognition of the keyboard. I chose as input All MIDI Inputs -> All Channels.
• In Reaper's MIDI Hardware Output my only choices were Focusrite USB MIDI and <no output>. I chose Focusrite USB MIDI.
• At the Roland, turned off Local Control, stopping keys from sounding locally. Set Upper Tone to Channel 1 and Lower Tone also to Channel 1. Setting to transmit Program Change data On. Driver to be used Original (as against Generic).
• Armed Reaper MIDI track, played keys, no activity at the track meter. Recorded a few bars, no activity in the ReaControl MIDI activity log. Audio track still showing activity at its meter.
As an aside from stewing about this I'm thinking it might be nice to see my copy of Reaper bring out its piano roll. I'm so new I haven't actually seen Reaper do that yet. Might there be a way to get a virus-free sample MIDI file, have Reaper open that? Any guidance how to do that would be welcome, along with any further thoughts how the Roland might be encouraged to send MIDI.
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:35 AM   #13
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• Reaper shows no special recognition of the keyboard. I chose as input All MIDI Inputs -> All Channels.
• In Reaper's MIDI Hardware Output my only choices were Focusrite USB MIDI and <no output>. I chose Focusrite USB MIDI.
Just to make sure, but have you checked that you actually have Roland available and enabled as a MIDI input device in MIDI hardware settings? We don't have to care about MIDI outputs as long as the problem is getting MIDI into Reaper.

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At the Roland, turned off Local Control, stopping keys from sounding locally.
Turning Local off might help sometimes when you want to play or control the MIDI device from some other device/daw. But if you want to use the Roland keys to send MIDI, this most probably has to be on.

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As an aside from stewing about this I'm thinking it might be nice to see my copy of Reaper bring out its piano roll. I'm so new I haven't actually seen Reaper do that yet. Might there be a way to get a virus-free sample MIDI file, have Reaper open that?
There's fairly easy way to make your own MIDI item and see it in the MIDI editor. Select a track, click somewhere on the arrange area if you want to set the cursor to a specific place. From the Insert menu, choose New MIDI item. This will create an empty one bar MIDI item. Now doubleclick on this item and it will open in the MIDI editor.
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:06 AM   #14
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Just to make sure, but have you checked that you actually have Roland available and enabled as a MIDI input device in MIDI hardware settings? We don't have to care about MIDI outputs as long as the problem is getting MIDI into Reaper.
OK, SUCCESS.
As you advised, xpander, I checked I actually had Roland available and enabled as MIDI input device, there it was in the nested lists, and also available as ouput. How had I missed these before? Maybe it just took time for Roland and Reaper to get talking? Maybe I had to restart my computer, relaunch Reaper? There's now activity at the Reaper MIDI track meter. Smile emoji, however you do that forum wizardry.
So I unplugged the USB connection, recabled Roland MIDI out to Scarlett MIDI In, Scarlett MIDI Out to Roland MIDI In. In Reaper chose the Focusrite USB MIDI input and output, again SUCCESS. Activity at the MIDI track meter.
Many thanks to forum contributors for getting me over these hurdles. I'll play with this tonight and give a report. At this point, I'm newly optimistic.
Thank you for the tip on how to open a MIDI sample file.
It's been a hair-pulling pleasure, forum-friends,
cheers
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:05 AM   #15
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... It's been a hair-pulling pleasure.
just another way to say "I'm having fun with my daw."

Great to hear that it's working now!
Now make some music

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Old 10-22-2018, 09:56 AM   #16
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After that flush of success... still trouble getting the Roland keyboard to show as MIDI device. Reaper's giving me messages that it can't find the device, though it knows the device's name.(I had to ask Reaper to stop that dialog, though it's helpful info—Reaper telling me it can't find this thing I want it to find.) Here's the preferences MIDI devices dialog.



I've relaunched Reaper, restarted the Roland keyboard. Checked the cabling and Roland MIDI settings as before. Do you suppose I have to restart my PC every time the Roland drops from the Reaper's MIDI inputs list? Help appreciated.
Is there a clue in all those exclamation points in front of the Roland piano input? What happens if I click reset MIDI devices? I should just do it, but afraid the world might end.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:56 AM   #17
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Isn't that message just telling you that the roland used to be plugged in with USB, but isn't any more? If you are not using it via the USB connection you can just remove it from the list.
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Old 10-22-2018, 12:07 PM   #18
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As domzy already mentioned above, the N/A (Not available) messages are for the USB Connections (of the Roland devices).

Since you mentioned that you connected the Roland via MIDI cables to the Scarlett, the Focusrite USB MIDI is the only USB MIDI device which needs to be enabled and used (as Track Input) - since this is the device directly connected to your computer in this case: Computer <--> [USB] Focusrite USB MIDI [MIDI] <--> Roland

Quote:
So I unplugged the USB connection, recabled Roland MIDI out to Scarlett MIDI In, Scarlett MIDI Out to Roland MIDI In. In Reaper chose the Focusrite USB MIDI input and output, again SUCCESS. Activity at the MIDI track meter.

EDIT: More info about the additional MIDI Device Management options introduced with Reaper 5.94/5.95 is shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xPR4xwEysE
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:39 AM   #19
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Yes, domzy and solger, I see what you're saying. That's correct. Thanks for taking the time.
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:59 AM   #20
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Forum friends,
Prostrate apologies for asking the SAME question as before, at least twice, in this thread I started. Why no MIDI activity at Reaper's meters?
Whenever y'all answer, Reaper shapes up and gives me MIDI activity at the meters. Really, there must be a better reason than that Reaper knows I'm talking about it in the forum.
So, no activity at the meters for this MIDI bass track.



I've restarted Reaper. Restarted the Roland MIDI device. Scarlett interface has frontpanel MIDI light greenlit. Here're the MIDI prefs.



Track in question is record-armed. As is a bass audio track above it. Bass audio track has meter activity. I've tried turning the Roland's Local Control on and off, no difference. Tried relaunching Reaper, THEN powering on keyboard. No luck yet.
Perplexed. Grateful for the forum. Enjoying Reaper. Enjoying digging deeper (having to) into its caverns. Its vast lexicon of shortcuts, for example. Very cool. Office Depot told me today their cheapest price for printing the 466-page user guide would be $75. About $.16 per side. I don't think I'll be doing that. Maybe if I can find $.05.
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:04 AM   #21
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Just looking at your screenshot, you have the (instrument) plugins currently inserted as Input FX.
So put them into the Track FX chain instead:

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Old 10-24-2018, 10:43 AM   #22
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Just looking at your screenshot, you have the (instrument) plugins currently inserted as Input FX.
So put them into the Track FX chain instead:

Thanks, solger. OK, I think I got that changed. Still no signal at MIDI track meter though. cheers

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Old 10-24-2018, 10:55 AM   #23
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Is your bass receiving on MIDI channel 2 (and the roland sending on ch 1)?
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:56 AM   #24
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Thanks, solger. OK, I think I got that changed. Still no signal at MIDI track meter though. cheers
OK. The other settings in the screenshots are looking good so far.


In addition to domzy's suggestion about checking for a possible MIDI channel mismatch: If necessary, you can use the Map Input to channel menu in your screenshot to map the Focusrite USB MIDI input to a different channel.


To check if any MIDI input from the Focusrite/Roland is reaching the Track, you can use a MIDI Logger as first plugin in the FX Chain. For instance, by inserting the ReaControlMIDI plugin and using its [Show log] window
Quote:
Tried relaunching Reaper, THEN powering on keyboard. No luck yet.
If you haven't already, some additional things you can try, in general:

- Powering on the keyboard before launching Reaper
- Or using the [Reset all MIDI devices] button at the bottom of the MIDI Preferences window


-----------------

Just as a side note:

You can also insert instrument plugins via the Insert or Track menu: Insert Virtual instrument on new Track ... which sets up some Track settings automatically (record arm & input monitor enabled, Track Input set to all MIDI channels). So if necessary, you'll basically only have to adjust the Input MIDI channel in this case. As shown here: https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php#BvSC-6qq1vs
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Old 10-24-2018, 11:41 AM   #25
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In addition to domzy's suggestion about checking for a possible MIDI channel mismatch:
Good tip. The Roland's defaults are Upper Channel 1 and Lower Channel 3. I've been changing Lower Channel to 1 per an earlier suggestion in this thread. Reaper's looking for All Channels from Focusrite. Does that rule out channel mismatch?

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If necessary, you can use the Map Input to channel menu in your screenshot to map the Focusrite USB MIDI input to a different channel.
OK. Changed the map input setting from Source Channel to Channel 1. No luck. Tried Channels 2 and 3, respectively. No luck.

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To check if any MIDI input from the Focusrite/Roland is reaching the Track, you can use a MIDI Logger as first plugin in the FX Chain. For instance, by inserting the ReaControlMIDI plugin and using its [Show log] window
Thanks. I think I have that set up. No activity in the log on playing the keyboard. The plugin, as I understand from your earlier post, goes in the Track FX chain, not the Input FX chain? I have it in the Track chain. Haven't got to this subject yet in my Reaper self-study, so flying a bit blind.

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Originally Posted by solger View Post
If you haven't already, some additional things you can try, in general: Powering on the keyboard before launching Reaper
Check. Results of experiment, no luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solger View Post
Or using the [Reset all MIDI devices] button at the bottom of the MIDI Preferences window
Check. Results, no luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solger View Post
You can also insert instrument plugins via the Insert or Track menu: Insert Virtual instrument on new Track ... which sets up some Track settings automatically (record arm & input monitor enabled, Track Input set to all MIDI channels). So if necessary, you'll basically only have to adjust the Input MIDI channel in this case. As shown here: https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php#BvSC-6qq1vs
Great tip. Tried this, got the virtual MIDI keyboard sounding its notes. Activity at track meter. Switched input to Focusrite All Channels, no signal.
Sanity requires I now leave this for a while, go ride my bike for a couple hours. Any further suggestions in the interim welcome.
cheers
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Old 10-24-2018, 11:48 AM   #26
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Good tip. The Roland's defaults are Upper Channel 1 and Lower Channel 3. I've been changing Lower Channel to 1 per an earlier suggestion in this thread.
Reaper's looking for All Channels from Focusrite. Does that rule out channel mismatch?
Not necessarily.

Although the Track can receive MIDI from all Focusrite channels, if the Roland transmits, as example, only on Channel 1, then Channel 1 is the one routed through to trigger the plugin.
So if the plugin only listens on Channel 2, you'd still have a channel mismatch.



By the way: which bass plugin are you using in this case?


Quote:
Thanks. I think I have that set up. No activity in the log on playing the keyboard...
If the Track is set up correctly (as shown in your screenshot - record armed & input monitor), then the ReaControlMIDI log window should show some activity (like which MIDI note on which MIDI channel was played, etc.).
If not, recheck the settings on the Roland (again).

Quote:
The plugin, as I understand from your earlier post, goes in the Track FX chain, not the Input FX chain? I have it in the Track chain.
Yes, for now using just the Track FX chain is sufficient. And as mentioned above, make sure that ReaControlMIDI is the only or first plugin in the Track FX Chain.
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:33 PM   #27
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The Roland's defaults are Upper Channel 1 and Lower Channel 3.
I just had a quick look at the Roland FP-4 manual and it looks like the important settings for a MIDI connection are the following:
  • MIDI Transmit Channels (for Upper and Lower tone)
  • Local set to OFF (if you only want to use it as MIDI keyboard) or ON (if you want to use the internal sound generator at the same time)
  • There's also a Program Change Transmit Switch setting ([Function] button > [Sound Control] button > while holding Sound Control button use [-][+] buttons to make the display indicate "PC". For now, try to set this PC setting to OFF.


Just in case for testing purposes:

Also try to set the Focusrite USB MIDI Input in Reaper's MIDI Preferences only to [Enable Input] by unchecking the second [Enable Input for control messages] option. So the Focusrite USB MIDI Input only shows [Enabled] in the Mode column of the list.



EDIT: I just wanted to mention that I haven't read through the first couple of (longer) posts in this thread, yet. So other users might have already mentioned some of these things there
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Old 10-25-2018, 06:51 AM   #28
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Although the Track can receive MIDI from all Focusrite channels, if the Roland transmits, as example, only on Channel 1, then Channel 1 is the one routed through to trigger the plugin.
So if the plugin only listens on Channel 2, you'd still have a channel mismatch. By the way: which bass plugin are you using in this case?
When I switch on the Roland it defaults to Upper Channel 1 and Lower Channel 3. For now I'm thinking I'll just leave those settings and Reaper-select All Channels as inputs. The other Roland settings:
• PC Off. Thanks for suggesting it.
• Out Off. I've tried this both Off and On, with no apparent difference. The Roland manual says the setting's to do with exporting a song recorded on / stored in the Roland.
• Local On. With this setting On, I get signal at the audio track in Reaper. Still nothing at the MIDI track. With this setting Off, I get no signal at either track, neither audio nor MIDI.
• I'm using a bass tone called Acoustic Bass, lives in the Roland's tone bank. So maybe not a plugin at all. I'm interested to learn how to assign a tone from Reaper, but not sure I have any plugins there to assign. The plugin called VSTi:ReaSampleOmatic5000 (Cockos) is tantalizing in prospect. Would that by chance be something lets a user select from 5000 Reaper-bundled samples? If Reaper offers a nice bass sample, I'll be happy to try it, use it, plug it in for this experiment.

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If the Track is set up correctly (as shown in your screenshot - record armed & input monitor), then the ReaControlMIDI log window should show some activity (like which MIDI note on which MIDI channel was played, etc.). If not, recheck the settings on the Roland (again).
Maybe the answer is still "The track is NOT set up correctly." Wish it were. No activity in the ReaControlMIDI log.

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Yes, for now using just the Track FX chain is sufficient. And as mentioned above, make sure that ReaControlMIDI is the only or first plugin in the Track FX Chain.
Check, ReaControlMIDI is the only plugin in the Track FX chain. The virtual MIDI keyboard track I inserted at your suggestion also has only ReaControlMIDI as plugin, and that track has nice hot signal when I play the virtual MIDI keyboard.
Now I'll drop down to your next post. It'll take me a few minutes to answer there too. Many thanks for the guidance and suggestions. I don't know how you forum friends find the time to help the helpless like you do.
cheers
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:04 AM   #29
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I just had a quick look at the Roland FP-4 manual and it looks like the important settings for a MIDI connection are the following:
  • MIDI Transmit Channels (for Upper and Lower tone)
  • Check.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solger View Post
  • Local set to OFF (if you only want to use it as MIDI keyboard) or ON (if you want to use the internal sound generator at the same time)
  • Check. On for now. Easy to choose Off, but then no audio signal at Reaper audio track. Why not???? Hm.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solger View Post
  • There's also a Program Change Transmit Switch setting ([Function] button > [Sound Control] button > while holding Sound Control button use [-][+] buttons to make the display indicate "PC". For now, try to set this PC setting to OFF.
  • Check. PC (Program Change) Off for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solger View Post
Just in case for testing purposes: Also try to set the Focusrite USB MIDI Input in Reaper's MIDI Preferences only to [Enable Input] by unchecking the second [Enable Input for control messages] option. So the Focusrite USB MIDI Input only shows [Enabled] in the Mode column of the list.
Check. Focusrite USB MIDI in Reaper's MIDI Preferences now shows only Enable and NOT Enable + Control

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Originally Posted by solger View Post
EDIT: I just wanted to mention that I haven't read through the first couple of (longer) posts in this thread, yet. So other users might have already mentioned some of these things there
No problem. Maybe you have other things to do besides fix newbie troubles.
Couple days ago, with lots of forum help, I had the Roland sending audio and MIDI and Reaper hearing both. What changed? I've heard where some audio-savvy sorts have elaborate procedures for switching on equipment, observing a strictly ordered sequence, in order to get devices talking to each other. I've tried several times turning on the keyboard THEN launching Reaper. This doesn't seem to be the solution. Still wondering.
thanks, cheers
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Old 10-25-2018, 08:00 AM   #30
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Couple days ago, with lots of forum help, I had the Roland sending audio and MIDI and Reaper hearing both. What changed? I've heard where some audio-savvy sorts have elaborate procedures for switching on equipment, observing a strictly ordered sequence, in order to get devices talking to each other. I've tried several times turning on the keyboard THEN launching Reaper. This doesn't seem to be the solution. Still wondering.
thanks, cheers
To answer my own question, What changed from a few days ago when I had this working—-audio and MIDI both recording in Reaper from a single Roland keyboard take—-I got that success following a forum suggestion to bypass the Scarlett interface and connect the Roland via USB directly to the computer. I downloaded and installed the original Roland drivers, and there was a restart of my computer. Doing that, the computer for the first time seemed to recognize the Roland drivers, and I was able to select those and record in Reaper both audio and MIDI from a single Roland take. Flushed with that success, I disconnected the Roland's USB and reconnected the Roland to the Scarlett via MIDI cables, Scarlett USB to computer. I don't think I rebooted the computer this time. This also was successful. I was able to record both audio and MIDI from a single Roland take. Next day, I'd lost the MIDI signal. Maybe somebody can see in this what might be at issue? Many thanks for this forum's expertise.
cheers
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Old 10-25-2018, 10:51 AM   #31
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This is not going to be satisfactory, but I'm going there anyway.

Are you low on USB ports? Cause you could just plug the Roland back in and go with that. Call it gremlins and wash your hands. You'll be rocking. Sure it'll bug you, and you'll try it every once in a while just to see, but at least you're making music. Like it seriously shouldn't be this hard and everything you've said tells me that something along the line is not working consistently. Like it's broken, and there just might not be anything you can do to fix it. Be thankful you have another viable option and move on with your life.

BUT

Are you confident in the midi cables themselves? You've swapped them around at least once?

Have you tried playing midi back to the Roland from Reaper to see if it works in that direction?
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:40 PM   #32
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As ashcat_lt mentioned above, checking the MIDI cables itself is probably the next best step (by swapping/trying different cables, checking the MIDI activity led on the Scarlett, etc.)

If this doesn't make any difference, I guess going back to connecting the Roland directly via the USB connection might probably be easier to troubleshoot.
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Old 10-26-2018, 07:05 AM   #33
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This is not going to be satisfactory, but I'm going there anyway... Call it gremlins and wash your hands.
Sage advice, forum benefactors. It's good to know when to throw in the towel, yes?

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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
You'll be rocking. ... Like it seriously shouldn't be this hard
I know!
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
...and everything you've said tells me that something along the line is not working consistently. Like it's broken, and there just might not be anything you can do to fix it. Be thankful you have another viable option and move on with your life.
But life is hard...

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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
BUT ... Are you confident in the midi cables themselves? You've swapped them around at least once?
I have just the one pair, new, Roland brand, about $13US each. So, no, not fully confident because I haven't tried any other cables. Today I'm bringing home a second MIDI device I can experiment with, a used Alesis Samplepad from Guitar Center. I'll see if I can't get Reaper talking to that through the Scarlett ... or through however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Have you tried playing midi back to the Roland from Reaper to see if it works in that direction?
Excellent tip. Just tried that, and amazed to find the Roland playing the notes I tap on Reaper's virtual MIDI keyboard. So things are working that direction. And in the Roland->Scarlett->Reaper direction Scarlett's front panel MIDI light went off when I switched the MIDI cables around at the Roland, came back on when I got the switch completed at the Scarlett. So maybe someday, if I bow to the gremlins today, practice a little humility, walk away, say my prayers at night, brush my teeth regularly, try to be kinder, get a life apart from geeking over MIDI--maybe someday this will come around, who knows? Thanks for the encouragement and support and expertise. Throughout this last week the writing / composing has been going well, lots of ideas, and that's certainly the more enjoyable matter.

Can I ask here a Reaper question I asked yesterday on another thread, but haven't got a reply to? Y'all directed me to Kenny Gioia's trove of training videos, and I'm eager to watch a number of those. But right off, after watching "How to Watch ..." and starting in with the intro to First MIDI Song I found myself in a pickle. Instead of getting a fresh project where I could mimic Kenny's moves and get the same results he was getting, Reaper was giving me a new project burdened with choices I'd made previously. Any way to get Reaper to give me a fresh project, like I've never been there before?
Many thanks,
cheers
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Old 10-26-2018, 07:06 AM   #34
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As ashcat_lt mentioned above, checking the MIDI cables itself is probably the next best step (by swapping/trying different cables, checking the MIDI activity led on the Scarlett, etc.)

If this doesn't make any difference, I guess going back to connecting the Roland directly via the USB connection might probably be easier to troubleshoot.
Many thanks, solger. Kindly, do see my reply to ashcat_lt, above.
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Old 10-26-2018, 07:41 AM   #35
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Can I ask here a Reaper question I asked yesterday on another thread, but haven't got a reply to? Y'all directed me to Kenny Gioia's trove of training videos, and I'm eager to watch a number of those. But right off, after watching "How to Watch ..." and starting in with the intro to First MIDI Song I found myself in a pickle. Instead of getting a fresh project where I could mimic Kenny's moves and get the same results he was getting, Reaper was giving me a new project burdened with choices I'd made previously. Any way to get Reaper to give me a fresh project, like I've never been there before?
Many thanks,
cheers
you can configure Reaper to always load a user-preconfigured default project on program startup and when wanna create a new project. It's most convenient to set up a desired default project once (tweaking project properties and other project features to your liking), then save that as a project template and tell Reaper to always load this one automatically (preferences -> Project). You may save other project templates which you have set up differently for different purposes. Those will all be easily accessible via the "open project template" menu list.

You can also configure Reaper to prompt for what project to load on program launch or when you select "new project".

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Old 10-27-2018, 10:20 AM   #36
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I can't say this relates directly to your problem, but I've found Windows 7 and later versions have problems with midi interfaces that use the default Windows midi driver. Things like: It works for a bit, then won't work on reboot. Or it doesn't work, then sometimes works after reboot, apparently depending on how much I've pissed off the universe lately. Or, some ports on a multiport interface work and some don't. The symptom is that the midi interface shows LED blink activity on a midi input, but the midi data never makes it into the PC.

I don't see these problems with manufacturer created midi drivers, only the generic Windows driver.

I've been disgusted enough to start experimenting with a Linux partition to run Reaper on, though that created new problems of its own.
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Tangent Studio - Philbo King
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