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Old 01-11-2019, 08:01 AM   #1
The Bunker
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Default Seriously considering dumping Reaper for good

I have been a long time enthusiastic Reaper user and have been getting deeper and deeper with the software spending many hours customising it to work with my workflow. But I am finding it sooo buggy these days when it comes to its compatibility with VSTs that I amseriously considering moving onto something else. I really don't want to be doing this and want to keep using Reaper but I have gotten to a point where I just don't know how to get it to work anymore.

For example I am just starting a project, I haven't even gotten much content into the project yet a couple of synth and drum machine tracks and I have gone and created all my BUSSES and FX Return tracks, loaded a few reverbs, EQs, Comps and so on and now it has just gotten to a point where everytime I try to load another VST its like Russian Roulette whether it loads or not. I usually have to unload another VST before it will load the next one. And I have no idea why this is happening and its been very frustrating constantly trying to fix something in reaper. I have a mixture of VST2 and VST3 plugins loaded majority of which are 64bit with maybe 1 or 2 32bit plugins here and there.

Would gladly shoot the project file along to someone to have a look at to see if they can see something I am not seeing but if I can't work this one out I am really considering trying something else.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:11 AM   #2
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VSTs are sometimes problematic. Once you know what VSTs you can rely on you will be much happier. Feel free to post the project to dropbox with any specific issues please. Reaper is the best in my world by large measure to the competitors so as long as I delete crappy vsts I'm very happy overall.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:14 AM   #3
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Set the option to start each plug-in in its own process (Plug-ins/Compatibility/VST bridging/In dedicate process per-plugin).
If REAPER still crash: replace your computer or audio interface.
If REAPER no longer crash: find the plug-in which is crashing and visit corresponding forum/support.

Sure, you have other options. Like replacing the DAW.
* some DAWs will not allow you to load 32bit plug-ins at all, except throw some external wrapper
* most other DAWs will not allow you to identify problematic plug-ins
* for reduced price of REAPER, other DAWs can limit you in number of tracks or effects. Or you can start with some "free" DAW, they will allow everything but in case of problems you can paint corresponding complains on your own wall.
Sure, that will help you with your original problem
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:17 AM   #4
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@aslow3, would setting it to Only Native (disable bridging) on my 64 bit Windows 7 only allow 64 bit plugs ?
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:30 AM   #5
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Hi guys,

Thanks for the quick replies. Yea I am actually not meaning to be crapping on Reaper at all, my experience has been that Reaper has been my favourite DAW to use for years and I would be very reluctant to shit to another DAW. I stil sometimes use Pro Tools and by no means prefer it over Reaper.

After writing that first post I have actually started reading some online discussions on various forums about the FLS limit of Windows 10 and I am thinking considering how Reaper has been behaving that this might actually have something to do with what is happening. Because as soon as I think I am finding the supposedly "bad plugin" and removing it and loading another, the next plugin I come to load after that seems to not want to load which is making me think I am hitting some sort of invisible ceiling with regards to how many instances of plugins I am allowed to have at any given time and that I am wrongly blaming this behaviour on the DAW or some rogue plugin.

How can I test this theory though? Anyone have any idea?
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:38 AM   #6
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Ok after reading this thread (https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...68608&start=15), I am 100% certain this FLS limit is what I am up against.

Specially this section:

"In my case there is one other factor that caused me to hit the FLS limit much faster than most others. Within my setup I am using several Novation hardware devices to access each of my plugins with Automap software (using dedicated Automap profiles for each of my plugins). As a result, all my plugins are accessed through special Automap DLL files which then communicate with the corresponding plugin. But... I found that these Automap DLL files each need one additional FLS slot!! So in this situation, almost all plugins need at least 2 FLS slots... which makes the issue clearly worse (please note that all the FLS slot numbers I have given here above are the numbers without using Automap)."

The reason I say this is because there were times where if I closed an Automap version of a plugin that I thought was preventing me from loading another plugin and then opened its non-automap version all of a sudden I could load that particular plugin I thought I thought I couldn't. This falsely led me to believe there was just something wrong with Automap, but it seems that Automap just uses more FLS slots which explains why when I am near that limit unloading an Automaped plugin and loading its non-automaped version gives me an extra slot to play with.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:43 AM   #7
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My usual advice to newbs on this, which since you aren`t a newb I assume you already tried, is to do a portable install and add your plugin paths one by one till reaper starts playing up again.

At least that would narrow it down.
Another area worth looking at is the order of the locations in your plugin lists, just in case that is messing with 32 bit v 64 bit - another fave cause of this sort of behaviour.


Sorry I cant offer much more in the way of help at this stage, but FWIW I regularly get issues with plugins, since I do beta testing for several developers & also run the betas in three other DAWs, but Reaper in general is pretty robust, usually coping with nasty plugs at LEAST as well as Studio One, Sonar, Tracktion & MixBus.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:06 AM   #8
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News about FLS:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7281357

PS if relevant, what is the FLS limit in Windows 7?
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:22 AM   #9
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Can't elaborate on my phone, but there is an underlying windows limit that may affect this. I'll dig it up when I get home but should be the same as the FL issue darkstar linked.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:03 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
@aslow3, would setting it to Only Native (disable bridging) on my 64 bit Windows 7 only allow 64 bit plugs ?
Yes, 32bit plug-ins can not be loaded then. But you still will see them in the browser.
If you just want avoid adding 32bit plug-ins from the browser, you can set "NOT ( x86 )" in the Plug-ins/Only show FX matching filter string.

Quote:
For example I am just starting a project...
That was a bit misleading
Also it is a good idea to mention that you are using evil wrappers like Automap.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:45 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
News about FLS:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7281357

PS if relevant, what is the FLS limit in Windows 7?
Ah thanks for that link, very interesting (reading through it now.)

So basically going off the content in that link and the one I posted earlier there is two ways to approach this for now.

1. Wait for that Windows update and twiddle my thumbs until then...

or

2. In the meantime configure my plugins so that the heavy ones (ones using lots of FLS slots) are running in their own dedicated process and allocate the others according to the suggestions by the author in that thread so that I can get more instances on my machine until microsoft fixes this stuff up.

Assuming I proceed as per the second suggestion above, this brings up the next couple of questions:

1. Is there an easier way of navigating my plugins and allocating each to the appropriate process type than having to go through Reaper's FX browser window right clicking on each one individually to allocate them? Like is there some sort of app that lets me just see a list of all my plugins and tick boxes or something?

and

2. If I have a project with instances of a given plugin already open and then I change which process reaper allocates that plugin to, will the next time I open that project make Reaper use the new process type I have selected or will it revert to whatever way i had it when I first loaded that particular plugin into the project?

I hope all this makes sense and isn't confusing, I am not fully up to speed with a lot of this tech language as its getting a bit too nerdy for regular DAW/music making talk....
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:49 AM   #12
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Do I understand correctly from reading this that instances of bridged 32 bit plugins are limited? And that limit is OS related and beyond Reaper?
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:11 AM   #13
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Yea all this stuff is news to me... it is only fairly recently that I actually have a powerful enough computer that even lets me hit this FLS ceiling. Before it used to just be hitting the CPU or RAM ceiling. Now 20% CPU in and BAM no more plugins can be added to the project.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:17 AM   #14
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Maybe try the 32 bit version of Reaper instead if your main plugins are 32 bit?
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:02 PM   #15
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For those interested, there apparently exists a VST that gives you the actual FLS count:
http://planetnine.jp/wp/2018/03/25/fls-checker/

I found that from here:
https://audiosex.pro/threads/windows...-plugin.38275/
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:58 PM   #16
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That's interesting. If you are a beginner in DAWs and get such stupid malfunctions while trying to add vsts you would of course blame the DAW company.

And this thread is a great example of what evens out all those little nitpicking things in Reaper with ease. Its the community! You, The Bunker, got frustrated, posted your problem and solved/narrowed it within hours. This is more worth than a nice GUI or this or that feature Reaper lacks of.

Just amazing!
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:07 PM   #17
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Well to be precise I figured it our by reading another forum :P

But yes the DAW and the Community are definitely second to none...

If anyone has any answers to the specific questions I asked above I would greatly appreciate it.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:31 PM   #18
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Reaper will use settings on project load, so the bridging method is a global setting, not project specific. That is so for default and per plug-in selection.

But try to find problematic plug-in(s). There should not be many of them. That is why the problem is not common...
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:38 PM   #19
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Im not sure what you mean by “problematic plugins”. Every plugin is problematic because every plugin eats up FLS slots. Some use just more.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bunker View Post
Im not sure what you mean by “problematic plugins”. Every plugin is problematic because every plugin eats up FLS slots. Some use just more.
It's the ones that use more and it's about how the developers coded using the underlying library (some do this smarter than others). IOW, there are some well-known very good plugin developers, there are also a lot of not so good ones who may be very good at DSP but not so good with the big picture programming wise.

He's right though, I've seen this issue come up maybe three times here in 10 years. I've never, ever seen it in my setup and I sometimes run up to 250 plugins.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
It's the ones that use more and it's about how the developers coded using the underlying library (some do this smarter than others). IOW, there are some well-known very good plugin developers, there are also a lot of not so good ones who may be very good at DSP but not so good with the big picture programming wise.

He's right though, I've seen this issue come up maybe three times here in 10 years. I've never, ever seen it in my setup and I sometimes run up to 250 plugins.
Interesting. Ok do you by some chance know which plugins are worse than others? Or is there a way I can find out (apart from tedious trial and error?)

Also maybe I can send you this project, it literally barely has anything in it, but I am having difficulty loading the next SoundToys plugin. Can you see if you can load more plugins onto it?
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:59 PM   #22
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Also for what its worth I just confirmed that in this project if I go to add a plugin from SoundToys for example it wont load it. But then as soon as I tell Reaper to run that plugin as a separate process it loads it fine. So it really seems that the issue FLS related. Now to find an easy way of customising all my plugins so they run in the desired bridge mode.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bunker View Post
So it really seems that the issue FLS related. Now to find an easy way of customising all my plugins so they run in the desired bridge mode.
This should do it IIRC:

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Old 01-11-2019, 04:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
1. Wait for that Windows update and twiddle my thumbs until then...
Done:


This Windows 10 Update Will Let You Run Way MORE Plugins In Your DAW!

(ask.com, January 11)
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
This should do it IIRC:

Hey thanks for that suggestion.

To elaborate, as per the advice in that thread I linked, the author there suggests making that adjustment on a per-plugin basis rather than universally, that way I can do this based on my own preferences and the specifics of each plugin, allowing plugins that I use more instances of such as certain EQs to be treated as native and making it so that plugins that use more FLS slots can be used as separate processes and so on.

I am guessing the answer to this is no, but is there a quicker way of changing settings per-plugin than right clicking on every single plugin and changing the state from the drop down menu? Like is there some utility that will let me do this outside of Reaper. I remember a while ago there was this utility that for example allowed you to sort out your FX folders outside of Reaper thats the sort of thing I mean.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:04 PM   #26
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Um, that is not out yet...
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:03 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
Reaper will use settings on project load, so the bridging method is a global setting, not project specific. That is so for default and per plug-in selection.

It must not be true.

You can set default bridging method as you said, but you can also override it while selecting plugin to be loaded. Since then, this plugin will be bridged or not, depending on chosen option, instead on defaults. Until.... until you add another instance of the same plugin selecting different mode. After reload the project, all instances of this plugin will be loaded with bridging mode valid for recently added instance.

This is how I found it work, at least for recent version of Reaper. A bit strange, that the bridging mode is not maintained for each plugin instance separately.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the bunker
Um, that is not out yet...
It will.


Isn't that a good news ?
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:43 PM   #29
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Anybody know how many FLS Slots windows 7 pro has available?

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Old 01-11-2019, 09:55 PM   #30
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You can check it yourself by downloading the FLS Checker VST Fabian linked to in post #15.

Right now I have 118 slots available on fresh start of Reaper, Win10. The number will go down 1 or more slots per each new plugin, but new instances of the same plugin or depending on the case, even other plugins from the same manufacturer, don't necessarily take any new slots.

Another thing is that even if you have no plugins in your current project, the slots are still reserved by the plugins of previous projects, if you had them open on the same Reaper session. Afaik, you'll have to close Reaper to clear all those slots.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:30 PM   #31
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Win7 Home Premium, right after launching REAPER...
ASIO: 112
WASPI: 114
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
News about FLS:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7281357

PS if relevant, what is the FLS limit in Windows 7?

Wow !!! This is something that I was
never aware of in the past.

I had no idea that there was a limit.
Thank you for the great information.

I'm using Windows 7 Professional (64 bit).

This is all good information.
I have learned something new today.
Thank you for sharing.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:12 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
Win7 Home Premium, right after launching REAPER...
ASIO: 112
WASPI: 114
I use drivers that come
factory created for my interfaces.

I use ASIO and Windows 7 Professional (64 bit).

I see that you tested ASIO
and got a result of 112 limit for
Home Premium. I'm guessing that
this would be the same number as
Win 7 Pro. This is interesting.

I have always used Windows 7 Pro 64bit
and have many multiple hard copy
back-ups of this Operating System
stored away (duplicates) in many
locations on optical media (M-Disc)
that is rated to last for 1000 years
in storage. I hope that I never hit
the plugin limit in a project.

I have found Win 7 Pro 64bit to be
the very best OS ever made by Microsoft
(my personal opinion from experience)
for DAW use (REAPER).

However, I did not know there was a plugin
limit for Windows in regards to DAW use.

Thank you everyone for the great information.
Much appreciated.
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Last edited by SMM; 01-11-2019 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:06 AM   #34
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Sorry I thought one of you may have known this offhand...
I had downloaded the program just not always keen on installing that which I am not accustomed to.
I have just had a torrid month with my computer windows UAD and Reaper
I am a bit shell shocked what can I say!

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Old 01-12-2019, 01:38 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMM View Post
I have found Win 7 Pro 64bit to be the very best OS ever made by Microsoft (my personal opinion from experience) for DAW use (REAPER).
Seems reasonable (for my live setup I'm on Win 7, as well) but hard to do for the average DAW user.

It would be great if somebody (Cocos ? ) would offer a dedicated Reaper-Windows installation "disk" that installs only what is necessary for you DAW (no internet !!!! ) in a boot-selectable partion of the disk. This could be based on Win 7 OEM/"embedded". Of course they need to charge you for the Microsoft registration fee. (-> $100 Windows + $60 Reaper + $40 added value = $200).

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Old 01-12-2019, 06:18 AM   #36
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It must not be true.

You can set default bridging method as you said, but you can also override it while selecting plugin to be loaded. Since then, this plugin will be bridged or not, depending on chosen option, instead on defaults. Until.... until you add another instance of the same plugin selecting different mode. After reload the project, all instances of this plugin will be loaded with bridging mode valid for recently added instance.

This is how I found it work, at least for recent version of Reaper. A bit strange, that the bridging mode is not maintained for each plugin instance separately.
So if I understand what you are saying correctly. If I currently have a project with Plugin A running in Native mode, and then I change the way that plugin loads to say Dedicated mode, and then I close the project and open it again the Project will still be using the original plugin in Native mode BUT if I then add a new instance of that plugin, Save, Exit and re-open the project all instances in the project will be run as a dedicated process or will I still have the original version being run native and the new version being run in a dedicated process. Is this correct?
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:20 AM   #37
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Also for some reason I have noticed that when I add some plugins they will take up a FLS slot but when I take that plugin off I will not get that FLS slot back. Anyone else notice anything like this? I am guessing its just bad plugin coding?
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:24 AM   #38
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So if I understand what you are saying correctly. If I currently have a project with Plugin A running in Native mode, and then I change the way that plugin loads to say Dedicated mode, and then I close the project and open it again the Project will still be using the original plugin in Native mode BUT if I then add a new instance of that plugin, Save, Exit and re-open the project all instances in the project will be run as a dedicated process or will I still have the original version being run native and the new version being run in a dedicated process. Is this correct?
Tbh imo there is no way to changie the bridging mode for already added plugins. If you know one, please share it.

However, if you have lets say synth1 in native mode on some track, then add another track with synth1, this time loaded in dedicated mode, then close and reopen project, both instances of synth1 will run in dedicated mode.
I don't know if it is a bug or intention. I reported it but with no responce so far.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:38 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
Tbh imo there is no way to changie the bridging mode for already added plugins. If you know one, please share it.

However, if you have lets say synth1 in native mode on some track, then add another track with synth1, this time loaded in dedicated mode, then close and reopen project, both instances of synth1 will run in dedicated mode.
I don't know if it is a bug or intention. I reported it but with no responce so far.
Oh ok, thats good to know. So I could use this method to "force" my project to adapt the new bridging mode for the plugins I already have loaded. Do you know if I have to save the new project? I guess I can just try and see...
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:59 PM   #40
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Oh ok, thats good to know. So I could use this method to "force" my project to adapt the new bridging mode for the plugins I already have loaded. Do you know if I have to save the new project? I guess I can just try and see...
No, you don't have to save the project to a new file.
And, yes, this is good way how to change mode of existing plugins without taking care about their settings. otherwise you would need to store settings to a preset prior to replacing the plugin.
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