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Old 06-24-2020, 02:31 PM   #41
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General question (because I don't want to start yet another thread):

how long does it take YOU to just decide you're done with a track, on average ? I mean I'm working on 2 songs at the moment, just 2, and I've been working on them since May. And I'm forcing myself to honor the deadline of July. But I'm just perpetually learning about new plugins, new methods, tweaking new things... I could go on another entire month no problem.
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Old 06-24-2020, 02:40 PM   #42
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Ok, I was kidding with @karbo in my previous post in this thread, but here's the real deal from my perspective -- 70's in Toronto was my heyday

Everyone had Neves, Studers, JBL 4350's etc. but very few pieces of outboard.

I don't think there was anyone who had, say, 2 LA2A's, 2 1176's and 2 Pultecs, unless you requested them as specials, even then I'm not sure, don't think we ever did that.

So, to the point -- there was less gear so the choices were somewhat easier because of the constraints.

You knew when the mix was ready when you had taken the tune and produced the most you could get out of it with all the tools at your disposal.

That does not necessarily mean sonic perfection -- a Steely Dan finished mix VERY different from a Stones finished mix -- they are both valid but VERY different.

Note that we are just speaking pure mixing here -- what others have said about musical craft, arrangement, room sonics, etc., etc., is a whole other bunch of layers that also must sum together in the final product.
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Old 06-24-2020, 02:59 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
Way back in the year 2000 (as seen on Conan)...

At the time I was giving up on the idea of running a recording studio, a friend of mine was doubling down the other way. He was re-recording tracks for his clients after they'd left, usually replacing most of the instruments and most of the vocals with his own tracks. Of course the clients attributed the "studio magic" to the technology and his mixing skill; they couldn't tell that the tracks were completely deleted and redone by a better musician.
The other guitarist in my band, stayed with it, he runs a successful home-based studio to this day, he does exactly ^that, plays the parts the others can't play for them. 90% of his work is that development area, there is nothing wrong with that in my eyes, especially once one knows the sheer amount of hit records where parts or much of the band didn't lay their tracks (see Tim Pierce's anthology for a small sample). He's just helping them live their dream and not just mixing which is really a big part of it all. I actually have a better studio than he does, but I don't have the interest to record others except for the rare exceptional talent or occasionally helping him with overflow.

I also don't have the magic he has on getting clients onboard with it the way he can. And he is very, very good at arranging sub-standard song arrangements brought in by clients, and convincing them as such, but if you do something for 40 years you get decent at doing it too. Which is falling on deaf ears in some of these threads.
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Old 06-24-2020, 02:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
General question (because I don't want to start yet another thread):

how long does it take YOU to just decide you're done with a track, on average ? I mean I'm working on 2 songs at the moment, just 2, and I've been working on them since May. And I'm forcing myself to honor the deadline of July. But I'm just perpetually learning about new plugins, new methods, tweaking new things... I could go on another entire month no problem.
Depends on the track -- at the risk of embarrassment, I'll post a couple from our "old guys" hobby band.

This first one is very dense towards the end -- lots of instruments -- almost Dixieland, took a while to get it to where you could hear every part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHXBK6pON38

The next one is a straight up Reggae, live off the floor feel, not a whole lot to do rhythm section wise -- put time into the vocals on this one, a lot easier to mix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWZOMpKQ07o
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Old 06-24-2020, 03:01 PM   #45
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The other guitarist in my band, stayed with it, he runs a successful home-based studio to this day, he does exactly ^that, plays the parts the others can't play for them. 90% of his work is that piece, there is nothing wrong with that in my eyes, especially once one knows the sheer amount of hit records where parts or much of the band didn't lay their tracks (see Tim Pierce's anthology for a small sample). He's just helping them live their dream and not just mixing which is really a big part of it all.

It's just I don't have the magic he has on getting clients onboard with it the way he can. And he is very, very good at arranging sub-standard song ideas brought in by clients but if you do something for 40 years you get decent at doing too.
Yeah, my studio is free -- if it wasn't it would be discrimination for me to accept some folks money, but not others

This way I get to make the call who gets to show up
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Old 06-24-2020, 03:12 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
This isn't about me or about taking a logic course online though (!). I'm genuinely asking the question about what differentiates the local Reaper user and the mega production studio..
That's what I think you keep missing, there is at least one platinum selling record engineer/producer, and/or others who have been at similar levels in the industry... and they are giving you direct advice in these very threads, yet you have created some illusion that people giving you advice here, don't know what they are talking about because it's the Reaper forum and it isn't what you want to hear. IOW, there is a huge pool of talent here that doesn't necessarily post in the collab forum or name drop.

That irony is somewhat astounding.
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Old 06-24-2020, 03:19 PM   #47
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This way I get to make the call who gets to show up
I know right? That's why I do respect those who can handle that part. I'm far too grouchy of an old bastard to deal with well, the level of green I had when I had it and wouldn't listen myself.
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Old 06-24-2020, 03:20 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Depends on the track -- at the risk of embarrassment, I'll post a couple from our "old guys" hobby band.

This first one is very dense towards the end -- lots of instruments -- almost Dixieland, took a while to get it to where you could hear every part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHXBK6pON38

The next one is a straight up Reggae, live off the floor feel, not a whole lot to do rhythm section wise -- put time into the vocals on this one, a lot easier to mix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWZOMpKQ07o
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Old 06-24-2020, 03:53 PM   #49
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How do pro studios know their mix is ready?
you can't know it beforehand imo.

but i'd say a solid bunch of sold copies, a decent amount of likes and hand clapping audience should tell it.
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
This isn't about me or about taking a logic course online though (!). I'm genuinely asking the question about what differentiates the local Reaper user and the mega production studio. If the answer is: nothing, then nothing it is.
It is. (Well, other than knowledge/experience and perhaps some room treatment.)

Sorry but you need to recognize these tendencies people can have, or you'll remain stuck with your misconceptions which can lead to unwanted consequences...





As for Linkin Park...that sort of "overproduced" sound isn't something I like. But that aside, the elements within the mix are very different from the kinds of mixes you'd posted on Youtube. For the kind of music you were doing then, I wouldn't have even tried to make it sound similar to Linkin Park. If anything based on the sound you achieved, I'd have guessed you were aiming for Devin Townsend's sort of sound.

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The other guitarist in my band, stayed with it, he runs a successful home-based studio to this day, he does exactly ^that, plays the parts the others can't play for them. 90% of his work is that development area, there is nothing wrong with that in my eyes,
Nor mine. I wouldn't want to do it though, and also have to hide it from the "musicians" as my friend had to do. He had suggested re-recording their parts for them, and they were insulted. But he did it anyway, and they didn't notice. He eventually got clients who appreciated the fact he could write/arrange/perform for them, but a fair bit of the time was dealing with egotistical wannabe musicians who had no business bothering to put their "music" to any recorded medium. The parts he didn't replace were so butchered/chopped/aligned/autotuned...lol. It's hard to forget some of those songs.

Very quickly around that time I realized "anyone" could have a recording studio, so I was going to be a bottom feeder indefinitely. I saw the reality of the situation, and realized I had no patience to struggle through it.
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:19 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
General question (because I don't want to start yet another thread):

how long does it take YOU to just decide you're done with a track, on average ? I mean I'm working on 2 songs at the moment, just 2, and I've been working on them since May. And I'm forcing myself to honor the deadline of July. But I'm just perpetually learning about new plugins, new methods, tweaking new things... I could go on another entire month no problem.
When I've got the basics of the mixes together and it's getting into more nuance, I'll listen through the mixes the next day and take notes. When neither I or the client has any notes or comments after the last round, the mixes are done.
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:34 PM   #52
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I'll assume that your results were on par with his
Not even close. What I found funny was that people thought he was going to win. As if someone who sells plugins for a living is going to be able to mix like someone who mixes for a living.

To be fair, I think he's better at what he does than I would be.
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:39 PM   #53
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But I do stand by what I said about a good room and experienced ears, those are the primary tools, not
some magic plugin.
And I agree. I just wanted to reinforce how important everything else is.

A mix doesn't exist in a vacuum.
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:44 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
General question (because I don't want to start yet another thread):

how long does it take YOU to just decide you're done with a track, on average ? I mean I'm working on 2 songs at the moment, just 2, and I've been working on them since May. And I'm forcing myself to honor the deadline of July. But I'm just perpetually learning about new plugins, new methods, tweaking new things... I could go on another entire month no problem.
If you're not happy with your mixing yet, I don't know that telling you how long I take to make a mix would be all that helpful. But it is about 8 hours.

I wouldn't worry about speed at this point but try to NOT measure it in months.

If it takes you more than a day or two to mix a song, you're most likely spinning your wheels.
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Old 06-25-2020, 12:41 AM   #55
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Oh sweet jeebus. What a freakin' goldmine these threads are. Thanks so much all and especially you DL, you ask just the right questions that p!ss people off in just the right way.
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Old 06-25-2020, 03:14 AM   #56
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When I've got the basics of the mixes together and it's getting into more nuance, I'll listen through the mixes the next day and take notes. When neither I or the client has any notes or comments after the last round, the mixes are done.
I do that too. Taking notes after the daily listen. But then I not only make the 3 or 4 changes from my notes, I think to myself, well that entire part could sound better, so I go on a quest online looking for either techniques or plugins that could enhance that part I want improved. This, then something with the drums, then the room reverb, then ... and so on.

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Oh sweet jeebus. What a freakin' goldmine these threads are. Thanks so much all and especially you DL, you ask just the right questions that p!ss people off in just the right way.
lol always happy to create some conversation and read different opinions, and glad others may benefit.

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If you're not happy with your mixing yet, I don't know that telling you how long I take to make a mix would be all that helpful. But it is about 8 hours.

I wouldn't worry about speed at this point but try to NOT measure it in months.

If it takes you more than a day or two to mix a song, you're most likely spinning your wheels.
8 hours ? Damnnnnnnn. So provided you have the songs fully written, you could produce an album in like a week ?

I'm not there yet. I think this is SUPER important. Avoiding the attritional battle with your mix, fighting for the inches. Looking at the same session every day for hours, listening to that same song day after day... you get disgusted with it. It is a test however of how good your song is because you think: I'm putting in all this effort so it HAS to sound good in the end.

The problem right now is, although I've got all instruments saved as Presets, those change perpetually so I update the FX chain and resave them. I need to get to that level where I'm basically ready to just load up 6 or 7 preset instruments and be on my way out already.
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Old 06-25-2020, 04:56 AM   #57
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then something with the drums, then the room reverb, then ... and so on.
It sounds like you're still in the writing/arrangement phase if you're auditioning different instruments and ambience!

That's the issue. You haven't really started mixing yet.
Not to say this as a dismissive comment either. Writing/arranging is fussy personal creative stuff.

Once you have what you think is a finished idea in place it gets more straightforward. You dial up everything as you want it to sound. There might be an element to stumble over if you run into a challenge you aren't familiar with yet. But you have the target in your head. You wouldn't audition a different ambience anymore than you'd change a word in the vocal (assuming lyrics). You're just going after the final full sound now. You might check out a reference or 6 along the way but it's more of a guide for a specific element you're working on.

8 hours give or take sounds about right to cover that for a song. (I hope you mean 8 hours per song @Kenny G! If that's per album I'm gonna have to start mumbling swear words under my breath.) I could produce a live show recording in 10 hours though on a good day (if I didn't make too many blunders running the live sound and recording). Taking advantage of groundwork elements of the mix being the same for the whole set.
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Old 06-25-2020, 05:47 AM   #58
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Oh sweet jeebus. What a freakin' goldmine these threads are. Thanks so much all and especially you DL, you ask just the right questions that p!ss people off in just the right way.
Well, there's only so many times you can say the same fucking thing before you realize you are wasting your goddamn time.
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Old 06-25-2020, 12:15 PM   #59
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If you're not happy with your mixing yet, I don't know that telling you how long I take to make a mix would be all that helpful. But it is about 8 hours.
Is that all? I have mixes I've been working on for 15 years! Granted, I only work on them for a few minutes at a time and I'm in no hurry at all since there is no deadline to meet. Besides, nobody is interested in an old-man-no-one's-ever-heard-of original music and I'm not fooling myself. I just love recording my songs and mixing them when I get a minute or two. If they end up sounding good, that's just a bonus.
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Old 06-25-2020, 12:37 PM   #60
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I have mixes I've been working on for 15 years!
I've done similar but in reality, what I was really doing was writing/rewriting the same song in Reaper.
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Old 06-25-2020, 01:52 PM   #61
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There IS a magic button, actually. It's called the studio doorbell, and it gets pressed when the next customer arrives for their booking.

@DorkLard, why don't you try setting yourself a deadline. Say 'this song will be released on July 4th', after which you can't do any more work on it.

When you listen back to it with that perspective on July 11th, you will hear so much more clearly what you didn't do right, and be ready to correct that in the next project. But don't go back to the same song!
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Old 06-25-2020, 02:29 PM   #62
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It sounds like you're still in the writing/arrangement phase if you're auditioning different instruments and ambience!

That's the issue. You haven't really started mixing yet.
Not to say this as a dismissive comment either. Writing/arranging is fussy personal creative stuff.
I wouldn't even consider it mainly artistic or as belonging to the writing process. I'll gladly swap a synth sound for a totally different sound if it means it'll help the distortion guitars come out better or help the vocals breathe or wtvr, to me it's more out of necessity than a creative choice.

Sometimes there's also a certain logic to picking out your instruments but it isn't clear straight away what that logic is: for eg. I do electronic rock (a mix betw. Linkin Park and Depeche Mode) and for drum kicks I like the sound of smoother more rounded bassy kicks as is common in modern electronic music, but then I've got a setting with a rockish bass and heavy distortion power chords and a hard snare, so perhaps the clickier kicks would be more coherent to pick, but clicky kicks alone sound too artificial and thin so I have two different tracks (one bassy, the other attack-y) but it's hard to balance both... then I try dozens of other kicks so they sit better in the mix ... etc etc .

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There IS a magic button, actually. It's called the studio doorbell, and it gets pressed when the next customer arrives for their booking.

@DorkLard, why don't you try setting yourself a deadline. Say 'this song will be released on July 4th', after which you can't do any more work on it.

When you listen back to it with that perspective on July 11th, you will hear so much more clearly what you didn't do right, and be ready to correct that in the next project. But don't go back to the same song!
Ha. THAT magic button. Money money money, right.
Yeah, I set the date to July 1st. The thing is I want my stuff to sound good enough to be uploaded and heard by any listener. So it has to be "internet ready".
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Old 06-25-2020, 03:17 PM   #63
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I can't remember the last time I heard half an error in commercial music (not that I listen that closely...).
Well, the latter of that statement makes the former a little redundant
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Old 06-25-2020, 04:13 PM   #64
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The thing is I want my stuff to sound good enough to be uploaded and heard by any listener. So it has to be "internet ready".
I think you're mixing up 'ready' with 'perfect'. With respect, you might be looking for turd polish.
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Old 06-25-2020, 06:36 PM   #65
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8 hours ? Damnnnnnnn. So provided you have the songs fully written, you could produce an album in like a week ?
No. I was talking about mixing. I produce records (including mixing) in about 6 weeks.

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8 hours give or take sounds about right to cover that for a song. (I hope you mean 8 hours per song @Kenny G! If that's per album I'm gonna have to start mumbling swear words under my breath.)
Yes. That's per song. Best I can usually do is about 5 hours per song. Maybe 4.

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Is that all? I have mixes I've been working on for 15 years! Granted, I only work on them for a few minutes at a time and I'm in no hurry at all since there is no deadline to meet.
That's your problem. You need deadlines.

The only reason I don't remix everything I've ever done is because I had a deadline and someone released it.
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Old 06-25-2020, 10:34 PM   #66
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I've done similar but in reality, what I was really doing was writing/rewriting the same song in Reaper.
Ok, I'll admit that a lot of my mixing these days is because I am adding real drums to replace the software drums that I used in the original recordings.

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That's your problem. You need deadlines.

The only reason I don't remix everything I've ever done is because I had a deadline and someone released it.
I know myself too well to set a deadline. I'd hit the deadline and then say, "NOW it has to be done by..."
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Old 06-26-2020, 08:29 AM   #67
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I think you're mixing up 'ready' with 'perfect'. With respect, you might be looking for turd polish.
Sure, turd polishing, whatever linguistic description, all the same. What I know is NOBODY listens to music that 'sounds' shitty, no matter how creative and original and fresh. Atm it's much, much more desirable to have a song that sounds good even if it's only half interesting, than a brilliant piece of music produced by a DAW rookie. And everyone knows that, it's no secret: even a genre as supposedly underground as metal now operates that way. The 'bigger' sounding, best produced metal bands are the ones with success.
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Old 06-26-2020, 08:41 AM   #68
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What I know is NOBODY listens to music that 'sounds' shitty, no matter how creative and original and fresh.
Ahem.
I'm a big Hawkwind fan.
Some of the worst mixes I've ever heard on some of those albums. I'll always reach for and celebrate audiophile mixes and that's what I strive for myself. 24 bit offerings and 5.1 surround mixes always grab my attention first. I strongly believe you need a certain level of good mix before something has appeal beyond its genre. But I'll always go back and listen to my Hawkwind albums.
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:30 PM   #69
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What I know is NOBODY listens to music that 'sounds' shitty, no matter how creative and original and fresh....
Well I disagree again.

Listened to any boomy Sinatra, early Beatles, Stones, X,y,z....

Listening yesterday to Deacon Blue. Popular stuff. First track, great song poor sound (the Karbo hole in the middle syndrome!) Second track so much better mix but still a great song!

Loved those two songs Geoff linked to earlier. Good mixes IMHO FOR BOTH (shame about a little bit of noise noticeable right at the end of one) but it was the song it's lyrics and the performance that really grabbed my attention.

What I do dislike is when the sound detracts from the rest be it a very bad mix, distortion so beloved of heavy genres - but mixed perfection it need not be. Very little real live stuff would be considered perfect studio standard but the performance can still grip the emotions!!
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:51 PM   #70
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Well I disagree again.
To add to this:

A great mix of an uninspiring song rarely matters at all.
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Old 06-26-2020, 01:38 PM   #71
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I like the sound of smoother more rounded bassy kicks as is common in modern electronic music, but then I've got a setting with a rockish bass and heavy distortion power chords and a hard snare, so perhaps the clickier kicks would be more coherent to pick, but clicky kicks alone sound too artificial and thin so I have two different tracks (one bassy, the other attack-y) but it's hard to balance both... then I try dozens of other kicks so they sit better in the mix ... etc etc .
When you say "It's hard to balance them both" I would respond "But you have to" In fact, spend two minutes toggling between two kick sound balances you like, pick one and move on. Tell yourself that you don't doubt your judgment.

Set a deadline as an exercise in workflow. Mix three songs in a total of 9 hours, 3 hours each, over two or three days. The goal of it is to not get bogged down by choices or go down rabbit holes like auditioning dozens more kicks. If you do any of that, get to its conclusion in a few minutes. Mix like you have a deadline, not as if you have all the time in the world. It may seem like that would impede the quality but it really doesn't. Great recordists and mixers may come up with a good sounding kick, for example, but it usually comes from just coming up with something and moving on and not second guessing what they did every day after.

Give yourself a break and don't assume you'll hate it when you listen to it in five years because the kick wasn't what you are getting in 2025. Mix it as best you can.
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Old 06-26-2020, 01:57 PM   #72
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I just listened to Eddie Kramer, studio engineer of Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, Kiss and many more.
When a song is good than a song is good, why striving somewhere for perfection where no perfection is demanded.
He sometimes heard some "mistakes" in a mix months or years later. But no listener noticed it and no listener wonders whether a snare could have been compressed or not. Sometimes mistakes are even cool. I know a whole lot of songs where so called mistakes led to something very special. Looking for mistakes or always trying to make things better and better, when they are already good means that you are bound to a structure, to a model, but mixing is experimenting and just doing things, too.

What is the most important thing in a song? Vocals! Make them sit well in a mix, no one wants to know what reverb you have used or if you have used a reverb at all.
Then the drums for the groove and maybe the bass, mostly the base of a song.
Put the rest just somwhere to the right or left or in centre, give it a place and finished!
Of course you can spend three days for every single instrument. Kick, snare, hih gats, toms, guitar, synth etc etc
When you listen to or attend a live performance, do you think about eqs on hi hats, toms, kick, snare, etc etc? You do not need it for a good performance at all!

Last edited by Naji; 06-26-2020 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 06-27-2020, 01:41 AM   #73
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No. Because they sounded clearly flawed, particularly 70s and 80s, so I didn't need to ask myself that. In fact if anything that would enforce the narrative in the OP.
Hmmm. Ever heard Fleetwood Mac's Rumours? Sounds clearly flawed, right? Or perhaps some Abba? They surely didn't know anything about making records back then...

I mean, these "old" records are the ones people in the industry (professional mixers etc.) come back to time and time again when talking about good mixes. Not the most current stuff you hear in the radio...

Sure, stuff made in the 80's sounded polished compared to the 70's. Same with every decade. But a good mix is a good mix is a good mix. And you have to know the basics (and the history) so you know what's been done and what can be done. And then break the rules, if your capable.

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Old 06-27-2020, 06:16 AM   #74
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Ahem.
I'm a big Hawkwind fan.
Some of the worst mixes I've ever heard on some of those albums. I'll always reach for and celebrate audiophile mixes and that's what I strive for myself. 24 bit offerings and 5.1 surround mixes always grab my attention first. I strongly believe you need a certain level of good mix before something has appeal beyond its genre. But I'll always go back and listen to my Hawkwind albums.
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you're all talking about albums produced at a time when technology was still limited. Is it realistic to expect to produce an album today that sounds like an album from the 70s ? People TODAY want something that sounds good by today's standards, or they'll likely immediately switch off. I ain't bustin my ass like a slave so a couple of open minded music-educated individuals will like my stuff. You have to compromise. I used to be the artsy composer who wrote and recorded twisted technical death metal, and play it to a few friends, but that's not what all this is about. Without having to sell out, you can make compromises. The FIRST thing people listen for is production right now. If it's rock, how over-produced and gorgeous every instrument sounds; if it's metal, how huge the guitars and other instruments sound; if it's electronic, how pure and deep it sounds; pop needs to be super shiny, so on. The first thing ppl listen for IS NOT how great the musical ideas are and how brilliantly composed the melodies and chord progs are. So to be heard, you've got to meet that criterion first, and -then- if you can still be original and authentic even better. I too love shitty-produced records from past decades, but that's not the question here.

vdubreeze
You're right man. I definitely don't go by it like I have all the time in the world and do press myself constantly. Heck, I even dream about it now. I actually dream about opened Reaper sessions and VSTs and stuff. It's turning slightly obsessive. "Gotta finish the songs, gotta finish the songs...". But you're right: I won't even remember the struggle to pick a particular kick sound for that song in 2 years time.
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Old 06-27-2020, 07:06 AM   #75
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If you think that albums in the 70s all sound bad by today's standards, and that everyone in recent generations agrees with you...well you're wrong.

Don't forget that some of this magic studio equipment which you seem to think you need was designed and built in that era. Plugins were designed to mimic those sounds.
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Old 06-27-2020, 07:13 AM   #76
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serr, ...
you're all talking about albums produced at a time when technology was still limited...
No, I was talking about Hawkwind.
It's actually their albums from the last 20 years that sound the worst too. Some of the early '70s albums have better mixes. (Still challenging mind you.)

No, this is a genuine case of liking the music a lot even though the mixes and production are terrible and the music suffers for it. There's no redeeming charm and the albums would be much better with decent production.

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Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
The first thing ppl listen for IS NOT how great the musical ideas are and how brilliantly composed the melodies and chord progs are.
I do and literally some of my favorite music revolves around stuff like that!
Like I said, I'll listen to something I think is interesting even if someone doesn't have the chops to play or sound very well. But something interesting by someone who CAN play and sound well (and compose and arrange well) is where it's at! If what you're really getting at is that uninteresting stuff doesn't improve from a good mix though, I agree fully.

Last edited by serr; 06-27-2020 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 06-27-2020, 07:55 AM   #77
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The first thing ppl listen for IS NOT how great the musical ideas are and how brilliantly composed the melodies and chord progs are. .
100% disagree. If a piece of music is genuinely 'brilliantly composed' then the musical ideas will not NEED to be 'listened for'. They will jump out and grab you by the throat and they won't let go. They will run around and around in your head and beg you to play the song again. 'Brilliantly composed' is of course totally subjective, but the point still stands.

My 2 pence - a good arrangement is 2/3rds of getting a good mix. The biggest glaring signs of an amateur mix is too much 'stuff'. Too many parts, Too many frequencies that haven't been EQ'd out of those parts, and everything too wet with FX. This typically results in an unfocused sound that lacks contrast from section to section. It takes a while to gain the confidence to do very little when very little is needed, or to just take some parts out.

Also, there is no 'perfect mix' that you keep referring to. The perceived 'perfection' you are hearing is the result of careful comping, editing, and (when it comes to drums especially) probably a fair amount of sample replacement/layering for a smooth and consistent sound before any 'mixing' even begins. If you were to get your hands on the stems for those tracks, you'd almost certainly notice little errors like tiny crossfades/edits/hum etc (I'd recommend doing this if you haven't, you can find many of them online - pay attention to how thin/narrow and filtered certain parts will often sound in isolation, and how each part takes up it's own space in the frequency spectrum). The point is you can't hear those tiny errors in the context of the final mix, so they are irrelevant. It's not perfect, it's good enough. That's the best any of us can ever do.

My last piece of advise would be to be careful of trying to fix things in the mix that should have been be fixed in the production (i.e comping, editing, arrangement). In my experience, if these things have been done correctly and to a high standard then the mix is actually the easy part.
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Old 06-27-2020, 09:10 AM   #78
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If you think that albums in the 70s all sound bad by today's standards, and that everyone in recent generations agrees with you...well you're wrong.

Don't forget that some of this magic studio equipment which you seem to think you need was designed and built in that era. Plugins were designed to mimic those sounds.
No, I don't think all albums from the 70s suffer from bad production. I simply think most people today, like by a lot, care about how good the production sounds. If the song starts, and it's got that flimsy home made sound to it, let alone if it sounds like ass, most ppl will just tune out. Even if it's really well composed, original music. The first impression is: "what the hell is this, was this made in some obscure garage somewhere ? Eh forget it", they feel like they're losing their time on a non-event, and then they listen to any studio produced song and the production alone is so seducing they stay there. MOST music out there that's listened to, even in metal (again, supposedly "underground") is redundant/generic, but well produced. You'll find the occasional gem on YT with 1000 views that nobody knows about, and it's good music but mediocre-produced, but I don't want to be that.

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100% disagree. If a piece of music is genuinely 'brilliantly composed' then the musical ideas will not NEED to be 'listened for'. They will jump out and grab you by the throat and they won't let go. They will run around and around in your head and beg you to play the song again. 'Brilliantly composed' is of course totally subjective, but the point still stands.

My 2 pence - a good arrangement is 2/3rds of getting a good mix. The biggest glaring signs of an amateur mix is too much 'stuff'. Too many parts, Too many frequencies that haven't been EQ'd out of those parts, and everything too wet with FX. This typically results in an unfocused sound that lacks contrast from section to section. It takes a while to gain the confidence to do very little when very little is needed, or to just take some parts out.

Also, there is no 'perfect mix' that you keep referring to. The perceived 'perfection' you are hearing is the result of careful comping, editing, and (when it comes to drums especially) probably a fair amount of sample replacement/layering for a smooth and consistent sound before any 'mixing' even begins. If you were to get your hands on the stems for those tracks, you'd almost certainly notice little errors like tiny crossfades/edits/hum etc (I'd recommend doing this if you haven't, you can find many of them online - pay attention to how thin/narrow and filtered certain parts will often sound in isolation, and how each part takes up it's own space in the frequency spectrum). The point is you can't hear those tiny errors in the context of the final mix, so they are irrelevant. It's not perfect, it's good enough. That's the best any of us can ever do.

My last piece of advise would be to be careful of trying to fix things in the mix that should have been be fixed in the production (i.e comping, editing, arrangement). In my experience, if these things have been done correctly and to a high standard then the mix is actually the easy part.
Yeah this all speaks to me. Since I was a teen, I've been writing my songs on Guitar Pro (4, still today !! Hate the newer versions). In MIDI, every instrument sounds perfect and you could have 3 or 4 different instruments at the same time, no issue. Then you get to mixing in Reaper, and all of a sudden, your composition is no longer realistic. Too many things happening simultaneously. So now you spend hours and hours trying to fix the mess, find yourself EQing the life out of various tracks...then realize you need to simplify your composition and might need to get rid of a part...etc.

The difficult thing for me is to tear away from the GP/MIDI mindset of pure theory and computer perfection, and pull myself closer to realism, because at the end of the day you need to come up with an mp3, with real audio. The MIDI was merely a step to get there. I wonder if certain song writers, write as they produce. I'm sure many do that. Like, just lay down the chords and bass with some drums, maybe vocals, but then add arrangements as they go.
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Old 06-27-2020, 12:10 PM   #79
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No, I don't think all albums from the 70s suffer from bad production. I simply think most people today, like by a lot, care about how good the production sounds.
Let me quote your post to which I was referring:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dork Lard View Post
Is it realistic to expect to produce an album today that sounds like an album from the 70s ? People TODAY want something that sounds good by today's standards, or they'll likely immediately switch off.
The 70s had plenty of great sounding mixes and they hold up to this day. They don't sound like Linkin Park though...thankfully.

Anyway even if that previous post I quoted wasn't quite what you'd intended to say, I think you prefer a sort of over-produced over-compressed sort of sound that these days is showing its age, at the end of the "loudness war". I'm basing this on the few examples you've given of what you consider to be a great production. Not that I find those mixes bad in general, but they are a bit "much" when it comes to how compressed they are in general.
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Old 06-27-2020, 02:15 PM   #80
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If you do not know when your mix is ready for release, put it in a vault.
Open the vault after 5 years and listen to the mix again.
If you then will like your mix, it is ready for release
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