where are the instruments? - Page 2

Win Conway · 02-20-2015, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Lol

I don't think anyone mentioned that reapers price reflects the none inclusion of instruments and thus allows you money to go buy some nice third party ones

No it doesn't lol
Reapers price reflects how much Cockos want to charge for it, nothing more and nothing less.
Reaper has two prices and at the low end there is a whole slew of hosts with built in instruments it competes with, at the high end it competes with some of the most instrument heavy packages available.
so lets stay away from this pricing nonsense, not including a lot of instruments is a choice Cockos made but not to price the package.

suleiman · 02-20-2015, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

No it doesn't lol
Reapers price reflects how much Cockos want to charge for it, nothing more and nothing less.
Reaper has two prices and at the low end there is a whole slew of hosts with built in instruments it competes with, at the high end it competes with some of the most instrument heavy packages available.
so lets stay away from this pricing nonsense, not including a lot of instruments is a choice Cockos made but not to price the package.

Now that I think about it, you are right. I have been using Reaper for almost 5 years now, and this may have led to tunnel vision.

Thanks for saying it.

Tod · 02-20-2015, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

No it doesn't lol
Reapers price reflects how much Cockos want to charge for it, nothing more and nothing less.
Reaper has two prices and at the low end there is a whole slew of hosts with built in instruments it competes with, at the high end it competes with some of the most instrument heavy packages available.
so lets stay away from this pricing nonsense, not including a lot of instruments is a choice Cockos made but not to price the package.

I have to ask gpunk, is this your own speculation, or have you indeed talked to Justin or any of the other devs about this?

Whether Justin and co. leave the VSTi stuff out to keep a lower price, or whether they're just not interested in taking the time and money to create them, I don't think really matters. However, I do think there is a pretty good possibility that if they did spend the time and money to create some decent VSTis, the price could very easily be higher. Of course that's my own speculation.

whiteaxxxe · 02-20-2015, 02:29 PM

I mean, really, where is the problem that Reaper doesnt include any instruments? because the internet is short on VSTIs???? I dont get it ... if there are no instruments you need one hour to grab 100 from the internet. I mean the legally free ones ...

Win Conway · 02-20-2015, 02:48 PM

Justin has stated many times that he didnt add instruments because there are so many available already, that it is pointless.
It has nothing to do with cost, lets be perfectly clear here, if Justin wanted a VA in Reaper, not only would it be in there, but it would take him no more than a couple of days to design too, he already invented the framework that started the VST framework that a large portion of plugins are now built with, and he is something of a DSP maniac haha

anthraxsnax · 02-20-2015, 04:16 PM

reaper is without a doubt the most powerful daw... it's flexibility might be useless to half or more of the user base(unless you actually start poking around to realize it's potential) but it's there... other daws DONT have that kind of power. there are also a lot of things that not only reaper can do that others cant, but also things reaper did a long time ago that other daws are finally picking up...

point is: reaper was made by programmers... and it shows... im sure they also play instruments, but the whole program feels like it was designed from an outsider's perspective on making music... whereas many other daws feel like they were designed from a recording artist's perspective...

reaper runs a lot smoother + less footprint than other daws while having an advantage that it can just do things that other daws simply cant.

other daws come with half assed vsti's that a professional will eventually replace anyways. correct me if I'm wrong, but are there any daws that come with VSL/EWQL/NI stuff? any that come with Waves plugins?

my favorite "bundled" plugins is in FLstudio... mainly because they allow me to be lazy if I want to create electronic music... but it will never replacing having FM8/Reaktor/Massive...

so would you rather a DAW that from the foundation is rocksolid - and add the VST's you actually want to use?

or would you rather a DAW that from the foundation is mediocre at best, and use the freebies that you'll replace with real deal vsti's down the line?

I can tell you since cockos has absolutely 0 history of creating(or capturing) instruments, you could leave that up to the companies who have 200k+ worth of equiptment, years of experience, and the top session artists/orchestras do it.

anthraxsnax · 02-20-2015, 04:17 PM

inb4 someone says they have an osc generator haha

thequietroom · 02-20-2015, 04:40 PM

reaper doesnt give you the Garageband feel of a everything you need out of the box thing... but a lot of ppl like me prefer it that way because once you get to the point you know what you want the included stuff usually isnt all that great.

If reaper did do insrtuments..

They should definately go off the beaten path and have an unusual collection.

Harmonica instrument -

the sound of a footballs off the upright

Several golf sounds come to mind that could provide a percussive and a vocal instrument

all them wierd instruments they play at the renaissance festival

someone already mentioned bagpipes...

google Badgermin... that looks like a good one too that must be converted to a VSTI

Win Conway · 02-20-2015, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthraxsnax

reaper is without a doubt the most powerful daw... it's flexibility might be useless to half or more of the user base(unless you actually start poking around to realize it's potential) but it's there... other daws DONT have that kind of power. there are also a lot of things that not only reaper can do that others cant, but also things reaper did a long time ago that other daws are finally picking up...

point is: reaper was made by programmers... and it shows... im sure they also play instruments, but the whole program feels like it was designed from an outsider's perspective on making music... whereas many other daws feel like they were designed from a recording artist's perspective...

reaper runs a lot smoother + less footprint than other daws while having an advantage that it can just do things that other daws simply cant.

other daws come with half assed vsti's that a professional will eventually replace anyways. correct me if I'm wrong, but are there any daws that come with VSL/EWQL/NI stuff? any that come with Waves plugins?

my favorite "bundled" plugins is in FLstudio... mainly because they allow me to be lazy if I want to create electronic music... but it will never replacing having FM8/Reaktor/Massive...

so would you rather a DAW that from the foundation is rocksolid - and add the VST's you actually want to use?

or would you rather a DAW that from the foundation is mediocre at best, and use the freebies that you'll replace with real deal vsti's down the line?

I can tell you since cockos has absolutely 0 history of creating(or capturing) instruments, you could leave that up to the companies who have 200k+ worth of equiptment, years of experience, and the top session artists/orchestras do it.

I think you are being a bit blinkered here
1st not all instruments need to be sampled using 200k+ of equipment or using session artists/orchestra, you are talking about a smallish subset of instruments there.
2nd i would not call Logic or Cubase mediocre and they both come with some extremely powerful instruments
3rd VSTi as a whole is in a rut (much like hardware after the first death of analogue) and the reality is that there is pretty much nothing at all being invented in the way of new or exciting synthesis ideas, that will be done by some uber clever geek at some point, maybe somebody like Justin

(the most dangerous geek in the world if i remember the headline correctly)

anthraxsnax · 02-20-2015, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

I think you are being a bit blinkered here
1st not all instruments need to be sampled using 200k+ of equipment or using session artists/orchestra, you are talking about a smallish subset of instruments there.
2nd i would not call Logic or Cubase mediocre and they both come with some extremely powerful instruments
3rd VSTi as a whole is in a rut (much like hardware after the first death of analogue) and the reality is that there is pretty much nothing at all being invented in the way of new or exciting synthesis ideas, that will be done by some uber clever geek at some point, maybe somebody like Justin

(the most dangerous geek in the world if i remember the headline correctly)

professionals use the best results they can get.
halion line up is nothing compared to anything from EW/VSL/NI... I have Cubase 8 pro and I *did* install the trials for the vsti's they gave me... not a single one replaced any of the instruments on my album... heck I would literally use SAMPLE TANK over it. like old school sample tank 2.5 is a better band in a box offering than anything in either of those two daws.

you don't have to have 200k worth of recording gear to make a plugin... but you're competing against companies who DO. you're also competing with legendary sound engineers. you're also competing with people who have access to prestigious orchestra's and time to record them meticulously in prestigious concert halls/cathedrals/ect. you can pick up miroslav philharmonic for like 70 bucks and the cost required to make a plugin anywhere NEAR that would be out of this world. so tell me again how it's useful for him to waste his time trying to reinvent the wheel for an investment that simply cannot be profitable.

consider his business model... someone is much more likely to buy reaper than any other daw in the age that almost everything can be pirated... I personally know someone who has boat loads of plugins(99% of which are commercial... like waves) and the only piece of software he owns is reaper.

if he puts in even an investment assuming he wont MAKE money, only break even - he'd have to jack his prices up to the 400-500$ range too.. and tbh that's still not even comparable to the cost to create even a basic set of sounds...but for the sake of argument... then how many people do you think will still buy reaper for 500$?

he'd be much better off offering a free package of FREE VSTi's that are already on the internet. or at the very least working something out with ikmedia or garriton and putting a slim version of (lets say sampletank 3) for an extra 100$ then giving them the 100$.

none of you would make it in the business world, I swear...

anthraxsnax · 02-20-2015, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

3rd VSTi as a whole is in a rut (much like hardware after the first death of analogue) and the reality is that there is pretty much nothing at all being invented in the way of new or exciting synthesis ideas, that will be done by some uber clever geek at some point, maybe somebody like Justin

(the most dangerous geek in the world if i remember the headline correctly)

there are so many things you can do with massive that your whole statement means absolutely nothing.

we have the tools to make almost anything atm... that's why the vsti as a whole is stagnant.

Win Conway · 02-20-2015, 07:42 PM

Well done for all that, non of it made any sense but well done anyway

Ok so you think every instrument is sample based and every instrument competes with 200k+ recorded samples WRONG
VSTi is not in a rut because you can do anything with Massive WRONG

Not all instruments are sampled based and have been recorded with 200k+ equipment erm Massive erm Wavetables FACT

The VSTi world is in a rut, fact, why, because the best synths (Massive is one of if not the best for me personally) where designed ten years ago Massive/Sylenth FACT

Yes we have had Diva and a few other interesting synths here and there, but there has been very little truly ground breaking like a VL or WSXA or even DX going back even further.

I swear one day i'm gonna makez itz in the binniss world i iz.

thequietroom · 02-20-2015, 08:10 PM

It wouldnt break my heart if they stayed in a rut for a bit longer. I cant affort to buy any more!!

anthraxsnax · 02-20-2015, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Well done for all that, non of it made any sense but well done anyway

you not understanding =/= my response illogical... maybe it just went right over your head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Ok so you think every instrument is sample based and every instrument competes with 200k+ recorded samples WRONG

making a half assed sample library means you need to sell it for cheap, which means you also need to sell it to ALOT OF PEOPLE to make it worth selling, and it's also going to possibly NEGATIVELY affect your branding... if cockos makes lousy vsti's do you think someone is going to expect anything different from their DAW? as for not every library not being sample based:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

erm Massive erm Wavetables FACT

/golfclap I had no idea! I thought it was just a really extensive sampled robot orgy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

The VSTi world is in a rut, fact, why, because the best synths (Massive is one of if not the best for me personally) where designed ten years ago Massive/Sylenth FACT

the wheel has been documented as far back as 3500 BC FACT. the wheel has basically stuck to the same fundamental design FACT.

why do we need more synths? considering reapers routing you can modulate so many parameters with almost anything... WHY DO WE NEED ANYTHING MORE THAN MASSIVE. people make drum loops in massive and you think that for some reason with all of the powerful synths we have today we need more, when 90% of the people who use them can't really work them, let alone make a wobble without a youtube video holding their hand... the only money waiting out there is a "SOUND LIKE SKRILLEX WITHOUT EVEN TRYING" vsti. the synths out there now are more than capable of making any sound you need... what you might want is maybe more PRESETS? something being old doesn't mean it doesn't work perfectly fine... aside from a handful of changes in things like barring edges how much have drums changed? in the last 30 years how much have electric guitars changed?

nuff said.

suleiman · 02-20-2015, 11:59 PM

I do agree that if you cant nail that sound in your head with the tools available today , you either :

- need to throw more money at it (get better tools) - this is the worst option
- learn , study, practice, get feedback, rinse repeat till you get it right with the tools you have
- get another hobby / go into another profession

I'm a wannabe amateur with only very little time for my hobby/passion, and even i can now think of a song in my head and get a sketch done in a matter of hours. This is after 12 years of working on computer based production , whenever i could get the time.

If a dumbass like me can manage, I'm sure you all can do much much better.
Plus some of the home productions that you hear today should be enough proof......jaw dropping work out there !

whiteaxxxe · 02-21-2015, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthraxsnax

...

the wheel has been documented as far back as 3500 BC FACT. the wheel has basically stuck to the same fundamental design FACT.

...

and thats why it is in a rut. (<- I dont know what a rut is, and I am not going to look it up. sounds like something really bad ... )

is there nobody who feels the need to take the ages-old design of a wheel at least one step further? I mean nothing in this world is so round that it couldnt get even more rounder. are we so comfortable with that really old design that we dont thing any longer about it? thats not the way mankind will go on for long ... taking things for granted is a big mistake.

anthraxsnax · 02-21-2015, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe

and thats why it is in a rut. (<- I dont know what a rut is, and I am not going to look it up. sounds like something really bad ... )

is there nobody who feels the need to take the ages-old design of a wheel at least one step further? I mean nothing in this world is so round that it couldnt get even more rounder. are we so comfortable with that really old design that we dont thing any longer about it? thats not the way mankind will go on for long ... taking things for granted is a big mistake.

I really hope I'm not the only person who smells the sarcasm, but I don't have much faith in the human race anymore I mean plenty of people meet and get married before I wear out a pair of shoes these days