Old 01-15-2022, 11:36 PM   #1
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Default Is this Level too low

Guys

Is this mic volume level too low?

https://i.imgur.com/PYo2XiH.png
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Old 01-16-2022, 01:11 AM   #2
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Nope, they're fine.
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Old 01-16-2022, 01:11 AM   #3
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In terms of pure input volume level I would expect that to be perfectly useable.

I might be tempted to increase the input level a little on future recordings (but not by much - just a few db). For this one, I might increase the item volume (using the handle or knob on the item or just in item properties) by 5 or 6db - but a lot would depend on context.

It might be at the right level just as it is, depending on what else is in the mix.

Edit: In short, I agree with Judders
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Old 01-16-2022, 01:52 AM   #4
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Thanks guys , That was pure input level without adding any plugins

but I wonder what values on my screenshot did you look at to judge ?
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Old 01-16-2022, 02:10 AM   #5
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For me, I could see it wasn't clipping - peak and LUFS-I. Mainly Peak.
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Old 01-16-2022, 02:23 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by iharpyou View Post
Thanks guys , That was pure input level without adding any plugins

but I wonder what values on my screenshot did you look at to judge ?
First, just looking at the waveform really tells us it's fine. You can see it, so it's not too quiet (although with 24bit dynamic range you have to record REALLY quietly for it to be "too quiet"), and you can see there is no clipping. A quick look at the render dialogue confirms no clipping has occurred by looking at the peak reading.

You don't have to overthink this. Digital recording is very forgiving, and essentially as long as you don't clip your input it should be a perfectly useable signal.
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Old 01-16-2022, 06:10 AM   #7
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thank you all. Now I got it
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Old 01-17-2022, 06:28 AM   #8
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It is a bit on the low side.
You can boost in this situation the input gain by 9dBfs up.
Up a bit, try to get as good and strong signal as you can, but check for self-noise your instrument.

Because...

Shit in = Shit out

In my case bellow, guitar DI, I think it was active pickup (can't remember honestly), this is how a healthy DI recording looks like.






and for the sake of being professional, here is the self noise of the pickup at the above recording levels (hot as possible)

this is pretty much low noise and quiet if you ask me!

Last edited by Pashkuli; 01-17-2022 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 01-17-2022, 07:25 AM   #9
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It is a bit on the low side.

..
Should I increase the Mic gain on my Audio interface ( Motu 4 ) or simply use EQ plugin in reaper to bring it up?
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Old 01-17-2022, 08:34 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by iharpyou View Post
Should I increase the Mic gain on my Audio interface ( Motu 4 ) or simply use EQ plugin in reaper to bring it up?
Let's first get some info regarding your setup and signal chain.

What are you recording: is it a mic, guitar pickup, some sensor signal maybe?

With the setup ready to capture (play\sing a bit to get enough strong signal without clipping the audio card), then do a recording of a small portion of "silence" (no singing, no playing but leave the setup input level as is), i.e. no playing no singing and see what your self noise level is.
For a mic it will mean your environment (acoustic room, vocal booth, etc.).

If such "silence" RMS level is above -60dBfs, your self noise is too much. This is part of the "Shit in" element.

So, let's start...
What are you recording? Vocal Mic, guitar pickup?
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Old 01-17-2022, 09:11 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Pashkuli View Post
Let's first get some info regarding your setup and signal chain.

What are you recording: is it a mic, guitar pickup, some sensor signal maybe?
I am recording My acoustic guitar , Harmonica and vocal
My audio interface is Motu m4 , condenser Mic is Rode NT2-a ,
I have Yamaha monitors as well as Sony headphone monitors

The only problem is that I do not have enough space to put my pc some where else so I need to be careful with Mic level

Now The best Mic level I can get to reduce background noise gives me this

https://i.imgur.com/qnyLlMW.png

The above is my background noise . If that is acceptable I am ready to go
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Old 01-17-2022, 09:16 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by iharpyou View Post
I am recording My acoustic guitar , Harmonica and vocal
My audio interface is Motu m4 , condenser Mic is Rode NT2-a ,
I have Yamaha monitors as well as Sony headphone monitors

The only problem is that I do not have enough space to put my pc some where else so I need to be careful with Mic level

Now The best Mic level I can get to reduce background noise gives me this

https://i.imgur.com/qnyLlMW.png

The above is my background noise . If that is acceptable I am ready to go
Looks suspiciously quiet for a mic and a PC running in the background.
If you do not touch the input gain knob on the audio card and record your acoustic guitar with this setup as you would record normally (close to the mic), what signal do you get with your guitar\vocal?

Record something now and render as is.
If you get Peaks at around -3dBfs, then you are ok with this setup.
if it is like in your original post ≈-11dBfs, it is too low.

Means that if you bring it up from input gain or in the box (post-conversion to digital), your "silence level" will peak at about -49 and rms at about -70.
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Old 01-17-2022, 09:29 AM   #13
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Ok thanks I will record in a few hours and will send it. I think I will be fine with this set up then because I increased the level from 11 o.clock to 12 o.clock on my audio interface. Will let you know
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Old 01-17-2022, 10:26 AM   #14
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Ok thanks I will record in a few hours and will send it. I think I will be fine with this set up then because I increased the level from 11 o.clock to 12 o.clock on my audio interface. Will let you know
The whole picture changes with every adjustment.
Quiet environment (at least acoustically treated walls) is a must with acoustic setup. Computer fan noises etc. are undesirable, also lamp buzz and other equipment interference gets all captured by the mics.
It all contributes to the "shit in" container at the input gain.
All gets boosted up the moment you boost up the input gain.
It does not matter how quiet or not you will record those noises and your instrument\voice. They will get proportionally boosted.

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Old 01-18-2022, 01:04 AM   #15
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It is a bit on the low side.
You can boost in this situation the input gain by 9dBfs up.
Up a bit, try to get as good and strong signal as you can, but check for self-noise your instrument.

Because...

Shit in = Shit out

In my case bellow, guitar DI, I think it was active pickup (can't remember honestly), this is how a healthy DI recording looks like.






and for the sake of being professional, here is the self noise of the pickup at the above recording levels (hot as possible)

this is pretty much low noise and quiet if you ask me!
Unsurprisingly, this is nonsense.

There is no need to risk getting so close to clipping your input.

Increasing the gain on your preamp has zero effect on the signal to noise ratio of anything before it. The signal and noise will be raised equally, and the ratio will remain unchanged.

You should really stop giving such bad advice.

Recording hot is a good idea if you are recording to tape because of the inherent noise floor of the medium. This is not the case with digital recording.
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Old 01-18-2022, 02:38 AM   #16
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Unsurprisingly, this is nonsense.

There is no need to risk getting so close to clipping your input.
Unsurprisingly, seems you have nothing to show us.

Of course if your desired signal is low will lead to any noise reducing the signal to noise ratio.

Most likely that will be the self noise of a condenser mic or pickups.
You can leave some decibels above the Peaks as a safety "headroom".
But overdoing it (e.g. a headroom of 18dBfs) is redundant.

I show examples.

On the first one it is clear that Peaks are pretty much at 0dBfs, still the RMS is -21dBfs.
Leaving a headroom of 18~20dBfs will dump the RMS to about -40dBfs, which is unnecessary.
It will be run through a high-gain amp, which will increase the noise and compress the desired signal (regardless of the fact that high-gain amp actually sound like pink noise).

Peaks during recording at about -12dBfs is good conservative level. Especially for general music, acoustic and such. But most modern music is over-compressored, so any noise (acoustic or circuit) better be down with higher SNR (signal to noise ratio).

Most audio interfaces (even the cheapest ones) have a self noise bellow -100dBfs.
But they are not the main reason for noise during recording.

But your ADC (of the audio card) also work best with a strong input signal. Because later you will compress them and depending on the mix they might get up or down. Maybe not much, but when you sum up a few, it will get on the way.



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Old 01-18-2022, 03:39 AM   #17
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Unsurprisingly, seems you have nothing to show us.

Of course if your desired signal is low will lead to any noise reducing the signal to noise ratio.

Most likely that will be the self noise of a condenser mic or pickups.
You can leave some decibels above the Peaks as a safety "headroom".
But overdoing it (e.g. a headroom of 18dBfs) is redundant.

I show examples.

On the first one it is clear that Peaks are pretty much at 0dBfs, still the RMS is -21dBfs.
Leaving a headroom of 18~20dBfs will dump the RMS to about -40dBfs, which is unnecessary.
It will be run through a high-gain amp, which will increase the noise and compress the desired signal (regardless of the fact that high-gain amp actually sound like pink noise).

Peaks during recording at about -12dBfs is good conservative level. Especially for general music, acoustic and such. But most modern music is over-compressored, so any noise (acoustic or circuit) better be down with higher SNR (signal to noise ratio).

Most audio interfaces (even the cheapest ones) have a self noise bellow -100dBfs.
But they are not the main reason for noise during recording.

But your ADC (of the audio card) also work best with a strong input signal. Because later you will compress them and depending on the mix they might get up or down. Maybe not much, but when you sum up a few, it will get on the way.


The preamp noise floor is the only source of noise to worry about, and that is low enough that it is of no practical concern when recording music. As I said, any noise before that is in the audio anyway, and preamp gain will have zero effect on the ratio of signal to noise.

The only thing recording hot will do is increase the risk of ruining a good take by clipping the signal.

I'll leave my replies at that, until you explain in technical terms the effect analogue to digital converters have on the noise floor of a PCM file.
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Old 01-18-2022, 04:24 AM   #18
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The preamp noise floor is the only source of noise to worry about, and that is low enough that it is of no practical concern when recording music. As I said, any noise before that is in the audio anyway, and preamp gain will have zero effect on the ratio of signal to noise.

The only thing recording hot will do is increase the risk of ruining a good take by clipping the signal.

I'll leave my replies at that, until you explain in technical terms the effect analogue to digital converters have on the noise floor of a PCM file.
We speak of the same thing, I think.
I am only being more explicit in technical details.

SNR is wider (means better) with high input gain (above certain level the benefits are not much). Yet, that depending on the level of the desired signal to be recorded, might result in clipping.

People nowadays record in their bedrooms in front of computer monitors and "boxes". Those interfere with the equipment for recording and even the soundcard (cheaper ones are quite bad).
It all increases noise.

Then they record too low input signal, because that makes them believe they can not hear the noise. Then they boost it with compressors, EQ, amp-sim in the DAW and all of sudden the mix sounds like shit.

This is a common thing. Especially with beginners. Most people record that way.

Reducing any noise (acoustic, self-equipment and chain) is a must.
Most people never check it. But it accumulates when they try to at the end of the mixing to master and boost to "stream loudness" and above.
It does not apply that much for sampled music.
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Old 01-18-2022, 04:42 AM   #19
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Shit in = Shit out

In my case bellow, guitar DI, I think it was active pickup (can't remember honestly), this is how a healthy DI recording looks like.

Just checked and my DIs routinely peak at like -20. How do you even do it that close to clipping(assuming nothing was normalized)? Using an external limiter or playing enough loud attempts that one of the takes is finally NOT clipping?
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Old 01-18-2022, 05:39 AM   #20
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No normalisation.
It is just a really good guitar + pickup, good pre-amp\ADC. I guess.
I am sure those are active pickups, so they have pretty strong output.

I have a sweet spot in my bedroom, where the interference from the PC monitor and box is almost non-existent.
The downside is that it is a bit far from the PC.
It is a trade off.

Most people record low, because they think the noise is not getting recorded. It is recorded.
So, I set up to the optimum maximum level to assess "my overall noise". And try to minimise it from that point.


I really am not concerned about Peaks clipping here and there as I would double check anyway post recording and restore them.
I have seen pro recordings clipped, mostly on bass or some guitar DIs and drums.

Not a big deal. Those are just short nasty peaks anyway... they are restorable.

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Old 01-18-2022, 05:47 AM   #21
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We speak of the same thing, I think.
I am only being more explicit in technical details.

SNR is wider (means better) with high input gain (above certain level the benefits are not much). Yet, that depending on the level of the desired signal to be recorded, might result in clipping.

People nowadays record in their bedrooms in front of computer monitors and "boxes". Those interfere with the equipment for recording and even the soundcard (cheaper ones are quite bad).
It all increases noise.

Then they record too low input signal, because that makes them believe they can not hear the noise. Then they boost it with compressors, EQ, amp-sim in the DAW and all of sudden the mix sounds like shit.

This is a common thing. Especially with beginners. Most people record that way.

Reducing any noise (acoustic, self-equipment and chain) is a must.
Most people never check it. But it accumulates when they try to at the end of the mixing to master and boost to "stream loudness" and above.
It does not apply that much for sampled music.
Applying more gain to a preamp will not change the signal to noise ratio of radio frequency interference or ground hum. It certainly won't affect the signal to noise ratio from ambient sounds.

You have yet to give a valid reason for recording close to clipping.
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:08 AM   #22
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The euphemism about "restoring" peaks is also highly debatable IMHO. When a peak needs "restoring" it means you irreversibly lost information.

To the OP (@iharpyou): I'd listen to Judders if I were you. Your levels are fine, don't overthink it.
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:36 AM   #23
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The euphemism about "restoring" peaks is also highly debatable IMHO. When a peak needs "restoring" it means you irreversibly lost information.

To the OP (@iharpyou): I'd listen to Judders if I were you. Your levels are fine, don't overthink it.
Yeah, but can you hear it?
I bet you on a £1000 you won't. Those peaks are not crucial information. They are actually less than 10ms clicks, when you isolate them.
They are not musical at all. For example:

the 10ms a stick hits a rim or drum
the 10ms a pick hits a string
pop sounds such as K, P, S

When boosted by underlying bass rich frequencies, such peaks can clip and there is nothing to worry about. Rarely happens but happens.
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:40 AM   #24
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.
You have yet to give a valid reason for recording close to clipping.
Given already.
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:47 AM   #25
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The euphemism about "restoring" peaks is also highly debatable IMHO. When a peak needs "restoring" it means you irreversibly lost information.

To the OP (@iharpyou): I'd listen to Judders if I were you. Your levels are fine, don't overthink it.
No doubt that Judders has experience . I can see his soundcloud.com
But if those music in his soundcloud is his then I must say my overall audio result will be very low. Much lower . Do you mean I create the music as Judders suggested then manipulate and make it higher with a plugin?

poetnprophet explanation also makes some sense so when the initial recording is done then I go ahead and make it a little higher ?
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:49 AM   #26
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:54 AM   #27
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No doubt that Judders has experience . I can see his soundcloud.com
But if those music in his soundcloud is his then I must say my overall audio result will be very low. Much lower . Do you mean I create the music as Judders suggested then manipulate and make it higher with a plugin?

poetnprophet explanation also makes some sense so when the initial recording is done then I go ahead and make it a little higher ?
You mix it and then master the mix to make it louder.
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:55 AM   #28
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this is how a healthy DI recording looks like.
You recorded a DI guitar signal and you hit 0dB peak? No you didn't, you normalized to that. How stupid do you think we are?

Hanging around this forum waiting for innocent beginners to ask questions so you can creepily mislead them with all your misunderstood, made-up nonsense, over and over, is pointless and harmful behaviour. Stop it.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:04 AM   #29
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No doubt that Judders has experience . I can see his soundcloud.com
But if those music in his soundcloud is his then I must say my overall audio result will be very low. Much lower . Do you mean I create the music as Judders suggested then manipulate and make it higher with a plugin?

poetnprophet explanation also makes some sense so when the initial recording is done then I go ahead and make it a little higher ?
Yes, the level you record at will not be the same after you have mixed it. You are free to turn things up or down once you have recorded them.

Your recording levels are fine. Use the faders to balance the levels once you have recorded your tracks.

There is no reason to overthink levels and noise with modern digital recording. Much more important things, like the space you record in, what microphone polar patterns you use and how you place them, and most of all the performance you are capturing, are the things you should be concentrating on.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:10 AM   #30
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Yes, the level you record at will not be the same after you have mixed it. You are free to turn things up or down once you have recorded them.

Your recording levels are fine. Use the faders to balance the levels once you have recorded your tracks.

There is no reason to overthink levels and noise with modern digital recording. Much more important things, like the space you record in, what microphone polar patterns you use and how you place them, and most of all the performance you are capturing, are the things you should be concentrating on.
This, and don't worry if your mix is not overly loud. Turn up your monitors.
You can strap a limiter on the master bus once you have your mix done, and bring up the level that way. Don't overdo it, though.

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Old 01-18-2022, 07:43 AM   #31
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OK guys I am thankful to all of you for trying to help

One more question I have is the Gain in Audio interface .

Do I always need to touch that one to decrease or increase the gain?

Or is it OK to keep it on a level and adjust the gain in Reaper?

For example for ease of use I want to keep the gain in my audio interface at 12 o.clock and make it less by using gain in Reaper ?
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:44 AM   #32
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OK guys I am thankful to all of you for trying to help

One more question I have is the Gain in Audio interface .

Do I always need to touch that one to decrease or increase the gain?

Or is it OK to keep it on a level and adjust the gain in Reaper?

For example for ease of use I want to keep the gain in my audio interface at 12 o.clock and make it less by using gain in Reaper ?
Use the Gain knob of the audio interface to get the right level.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:48 AM   #33
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You recorded a DI guitar signal and you hit 0dB peak? No you didn't, you normalized to that. How stupid do you think we are?
Did you miss the fact that also have pro-recorded DI signals which are clipped? So if they were normalised, how would they clip?
maybe normalised to +3dBfs... for some reason.

Normalising is pointless as it is just a linear boost.
As I mentioned some of those are restored peaks which got clipped.
Why would they clip, I have no idea?
Why would they want high level input raw signal, I have no idea.

Maybe it is accidental (the clipping). Actually it got a few, half a dozen throughout the whole song.
I do not know why.

I mean I know, but I'm just asking rhetorically.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:52 AM   #34
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Use the Gain knob of the audio interface to get the right level.
No, do not touch the gain. Leave it as low as possible to avoid noise and clipping and maybe even distortion (non-linear amplification).
(it is sarcasm)
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:56 AM   #35
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OK guys I am thankful to all of you for trying to help

One more question I have is the Gain in Audio interface .

Do I always need to touch that one to decrease or increase the gain?

Or is it OK to keep it on a level and adjust the gain in Reaper?

For example for ease of use I want to keep the gain in my audio interface at 12 o.clock and make it less by using gain in Reaper ?
Like The Kid says, use the gain on your audio interface for recording gain.

Reaper cannot change the gain of your interface, it can only adjust the level after the audio has passed through your interface. It might help to familiarise yourself with signal flow and what can affect what in the chain.
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Old 01-18-2022, 08:14 AM   #36
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I mean I know, but I'm just asking rhetorically.
No, you don't know. You don't understand this stuff.

Please grasp this : I don't care that you're wrong, I just don't want you to harm others by confusing them with your nonsense. Stop it.
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Old 01-18-2022, 09:29 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
No, you don't know. You don't understand this stuff.

Please grasp this : I don't care that you're wrong, I just don't want you to harm others by confusing them with your nonsense. Stop it.
But what is "the right level" as Judders mentioned it?!

Most people will record too low because of the "clipping the Peaks" danger. Too low for double insurance usually.
Or just because they do not like hearing "the noise", so "probably it won't get recorded". The ostrich logic... "I can not see it, therefore it is not there".

Noise and low freq (undesired!) are what makes or breaks a recording in terms of technical process. Performance is for the creative part and really noise is not that crucial (sometimes maybe desired for "low-fi" effect).

The shit is in. Therefore the shit will be out.
This the workflow 99% of bedroom musicians and music producers make.
I know that because I made those mistakes for years. Not months. Years.

But since more and more music today is being produced with well recorded and processed samples... the recording part of producing music gets lost and forgotten.
Maybe only for vocals it is still applicable... hopefully.

Last edited by Pashkuli; 01-20-2022 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:07 AM   #38
White Tie
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