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10-14-2020, 08:04 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 10
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Recording a tube amp directly
Hi!
I'm wodering if anyone has some tips and tricks for recording a real tube amp directly into an audio interface.
The way i did it is this:
Laney IRT60H Ironheart, plugged into a Behringer Ultra-G GI100. That DI box is made for that so don't worry. It's not a loadbox so i also plug in the speaker into the DI box into it's passthrough port so the head has load and doesn't blow up.
The DI box then goes into my audio interface. I have to engage a few -20db pads on the DI box to make the signal not as hot, and then adjust it. Otherwise it always clips, even with interface gain knob on 1.
The problem is - i don't know what level to record the preamp at. I did the "have headroom" thing and recorded it like i would a DI signal from a guitar at -18db. I record guitars that way so that i have headroom if i need to bump something up, raise level or gian on different plugins, that way it doesn't immediately clip.
On it's own it's super quiet, everything else in the mix is way louder. But if i put a power amp simulator in the signal chain right after the recorded preamp, it makes it really pop, and i'm quite happy with the sound i got. I used the Ignite amps TPA-1 power amp simulator.
My question is - is there a better way of doing it? Is what i'm doing technically correct or do i record at a different level instead of -18db? What other tricks are there for recording a real amp besides DIbox>poweramp sim>IR loader? EQ is to taste so i don't count it, i always EQ it depending on what the mix needs so that's by default, and not always the same.
If you recorded a real amp, how did you do it?
Please share some insights, i'd very much appreciate it!
Thank you!
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10-14-2020, 08:22 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,220
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I think you're overthinking stuff. Stop worrying about headroom sweetspots, once its digital you can have pretty much as quiet a signal from the preamp as you want and just turn it up later. Confirm this by normalizing a hot and not-hot recording then comparing the noise floors.
If it sounds good, its good. If the TPA workflow is working for you keep doing it.
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10-14-2020, 05:26 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler
I think you're overthinking stuff. Stop worrying about headroom sweetspots, once its digital you can have pretty much as quiet a signal from the preamp as you want and just turn it up later. Confirm this by normalizing a hot and not-hot recording then comparing the noise floors.
If it sounds good, its good. If the TPA workflow is working for you keep doing it.
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Well maybe i am, i do tend to overthink things lol. :P
But i did think that having the singnal too low would raise the noise as i amplify it. That's not the case?
Because that's why i'm worried. Having a signal too hot would mean that it could clip if i add something that would raise it's level, while having it too low means that the noise gets amplified as well.
That's my thought process at least.
Though, a too hot signal can always be lowered, and a low one raised, i just don't know how that will affect the quality of the recording.
I'll try the comparison you suggested, thank you!
And yeah, the sounds i get with the power amp sim are great, i guess really if it sounds good it's good. :P
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10-15-2020, 01:09 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Down side of the D.I. method is that you dont get any of the speaker breakup, which is often where the critical part of an amp sound comes from.
Stick a mic in front of the speaker as well & you would have the best of both worlds, on two separate tracks, so you can mix them accordingly.
P.S. Bet you end up preferring the mic`ed signal.
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Ici on parles Franglais
Last edited by ivansc; 10-29-2020 at 06:47 AM.
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10-15-2020, 02:04 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 680
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Purely from the engineering point of view...
For your DI method connect the speakers as normal with good solid connections.
Then bridge across the speaker leads into the DI box via a (for example) a 10k resistor in series. (Actually make it the same value as the impedance of the DI's input!)
That way you prevent most of the risk should the speaker get disconnected causing damage and
You already provide some attenuation into the DI box. Use a higher valu resistor to get more attenuation if desired. It has no effect on the amp but a speaker certainly does!
Similarly you can use a suitable resistive attenuator and feed into a line level input again to just reduce the signal to a suitable level.
Both methods (and your existing one) maintain any colouration/distortion of the sound owing to the matching between amp and speaker.
Ivan's idea to mic as well has the added advantage of using the speakers added characteristics too. Best of both worlds and you can 'mix and match'
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10-15-2020, 03:44 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,969
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Errr, doesn't that amp (the Laney IRT60H) have it's own DI output? - in which case, all you'd need to finish up the DI sound would be a speaker / cab sim?
That said, I'd consider recording from the FX loop - and then reamping the same way.
[EDIT] sorry, looking at the manual I see the DI seems to be either from the input (buffered) or via a (built-in) speaker emulation (but after the power stage). Looks like they missed a trick there - post power, but un-emulated would have been handy. So, back to reamping.
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it's meant to sound like that...
Last edited by jrk; 10-15-2020 at 03:57 AM.
Reason: I read the fkn manual
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10-15-2020, 03:50 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
Down side of the D.I. method is that you dont get any of the speaker breakup, which is often where the critical part of an amp sound comes from.
Stick a mic in front of thwe speaner as well & you would have the best of both worlds, on two seperate tracks, so you can mix them accordingly.
P.S. Bet you end up preferring the mic`ed signal.
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I'd love to do that but i can't really record a speaker, i don't have an acoustically treated room, and that amp can get really loud even at the 1W setting. I don't want to piss off the household. :P
That's why i'm recording a preamp directly.
I, however, have no doubt that it would sound better with a microphono, i just don't have the "luxury" (lol) to do that right now.
Unless....
How "loud" does the speaker need to be to record? I imagine pretty loud to capture that breakup right?
If i can record it at some "normal" volume i'd definitely try it.
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10-15-2020, 03:52 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrk
Errr, doesn't that amp (the Laney IRT60H) have it's own DI output? - in which case, all you'd need to finish up the DI sound would be a speaker / cab sim?
That said, I'd consider recording from the FX loop - and then reamping the same way.
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It has but it has a cab sim built into it that you can't turn off. And the cab sim on it is not great. Putting an IR after that makes it worse as you'd imagine.
That DI is more or less for live uses only, i use it to feed the signal to the drummer's monitor when on rehearsals. Works great for that, but not much else.
How would i record the FX loop though? Just connect the FX send from the amp to a DI box and into an interface?
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10-15-2020, 03:56 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allybye
Purely from the engineering point of view...
For your DI method connect the speakers as normal with good solid connections.
Then bridge across the speaker leads into the DI box via a (for example) a 10k resistor in series. (Actually make it the same value as the impedance of the DI's input!)
That way you prevent most of the risk should the speaker get disconnected causing damage and
You already provide some attenuation into the DI box. Use a higher valu resistor to get more attenuation if desired. It has no effect on the amp but a speaker certainly does!
Similarly you can use a suitable resistive attenuator and feed into a line level input again to just reduce the signal to a suitable level.
Both methods (and your existing one) maintain any colouration/distortion of the sound owing to the matching between amp and speaker.
Ivan's idea to mic as well has the added advantage of using the speakers added characteristics too. Best of both worlds and you can 'mix and match'
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I'm sorry, i didn't really understand what you said, i'm not much for the technical stuff.
I already have a DI box that i connect the amp to.
Form 8ohm output of the amp to the DI box, and from the DI box "through" to the speaker. Isn't that what you're suggesting?
Or are you suggesting an addition to that chain?
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10-15-2020, 04:12 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vepar
It has but it has a cab sim built into it that you can't turn off. And the cab sim on it is not great. Putting an IR after that makes it worse as you'd imagine.
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Yeah, sorry - I updated my post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vepar
How would i record the FX loop though? Just connect the FX send from the amp to a DI box and into an interface?
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Yes, depending on the level. [EDIT] You may need to return from the DI to the FX return.
But the way you're doing it - with a DI box that'll take speaker levels - is absolutely fine. As far as recording level go - there's nothing magic about -18dB, you can record as hot (or not) as you like (PROVIDING YOU DON'T CLIP ANYWHERE), particularly if you're recording at 24bit. And providing that doesn't upset any FX you're planning on using later on. But these will usually have input level controls in which case it matters not at all.
You can always do reamping when you have the house to yourself! Or even in another space.
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it's meant to sound like that...
Last edited by jrk; 10-15-2020 at 04:30 AM.
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10-15-2020, 12:40 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 680
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"I'm sorry, i didn't really understand what you said, i'm not much for the technical stuff.
I already have a DI box that i connect the amp to.
Form 8ohm output of the amp to the DI box, and from the DI box "through" to the speaker. Isn't that what you're suggesting?
Or are you suggesting an addition to that chain? "
Apologies will try and be clearer.
No not "through" the DI box.
Kepp the speaker connected as per normal. Then take the amps output that still goes to the speaker and piggy back a connection to the DI box.
Secondly a DI box is not essential. The amp to speaker connection is low impedance so many a preamp is of higher impedance at it's input so will not affect the amp/speaker setup. The main issue will be the high voltage that can be produced at the amp output...as you have found. A simple attenuator is all you need to reduce that level to a value that suits your preamp/DI box such as a line level input or your DI box.
Speaker drive is single ended so no real problems there, best feed into a balanced input if you can to avoid ground connections.
As far as mic recording is concerned, you may have some distortion you desire at high level output (?) but if not you only really need to turn up sufficiently to get enough signal compared to the amps hum/noise and general location acoustic noise. You could make your own anechoic screen round the speaker. (Stand all the family round it or maybe throw over a duvet or three?)
Last edited by Allybye; 10-15-2020 at 12:44 PM.
Reason: balanced input note
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10-19-2020, 08:22 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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If you close-mike the amp, the room shouldn't matter too much. Just don't pull the mic like a meter away from it or anything. Agree with ivansc about the speaker breakup, it's a huge part of the sound of some of these amps and why people like them.
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10-26-2020, 05:23 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 395
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definately mic your amp
your trying to simulate the sounds of an amplifier,...
why not just use an amp,...
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10-28-2020, 02:20 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Just to put this in perspective, I built myself a copy of a fender tweed deluxe (the 5E3) some years back, which is supposedly 11 watts. It is plenty loud enough to use at smaller gigs but also sounds great in the studio.
Recently it has been recorded with a U87 and an SM57 in a separate room, but I still didnt have the volume up very high at all. AND the speaker sound was very much "there" even at that volume.
FWIW, I thought the U87 was a waste of a channel.
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Ici on parles Franglais
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10-28-2020, 10:15 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Machine
why not just use an amp,...
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They are. That’s the whole point of the damn thread.
I disagree on the importance of speaker “breakup”. The distortion we get from the speaker cone itself is pretty small until it’s just about to blow up and very often it doesn’t really sound all that great. The important thing that the speaker (and cab) do for us is to lowpass our all the nasty spitty fizzy high harmonics, highpass out at least some of the low end rumble and subharmonics, and usually add some resonance somewhere in the middle. It’s not much more than an EQ curve. A speaker IR can’t model distortion, but they do make all the difference in the world.
The only real question in the OP is how hot should they record. That is a matter of S/N, but I’d be willing to bet that the amp and guitar limit that more than having the interface gain a little low. I would shoot for a higher input level in most cases, but it won’t hurt much just to turn it up in Reaper afterwards. I wouldn’t bother with a power amp simulator. Just use item/take gain or a volume plugin or the input gain of the first plugin in the chain or the output gain of the convolution plugin you’re using for speaker sim or really whatever is most convenient.
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10-28-2020, 02:05 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 680
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I wonder if "breakup" was really the correct description of the sound alteration in the first place? To me that is when a speaker is driven really hard such that it does not really work properly. So must agree with Ascat in that respect.
However I disagree that a speaker does little more than act as an eq. ( and I understand that is both a generalisation and approximation in Ashcat's post ably describing some of the artifacts!).
If that were the case then there would be much smaller differences in the sound out of speakers. Now taking into account room acoustics on reproduction is just as significant (or more at times), were that eq assertion the case, we could make many a speaker sound like others with ease.
I maintain there are significant distortions - a lot of unevenness in frequency response, harmonic, ringing/resonances, lack of transient response and other colourations) that make different models sound different. Often that can detract from the reproduction so much we do not like the sound, prefer others or even desire the innacuracies as a feature! ....but not in a studio monitor or true hifi speaker of course
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10-29-2020, 06:52 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allybye
However I disagree that a speaker does little more than act as an eq. ( and I understand that is both a generalisation and approximation in Ashcat's post ably describing some of the artifacts!).
If that were the case then there would be much smaller differences in the sound out of speakers. Now taking into account room acoustics on reproduction is just as significant (or more at times), were that eq assertion the case, we could make many a speaker sound like others with ease.
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Agreed. Describing the effect of the speaker on the sound as "breakup" is sloppy.
It is actually a sort of dynamic variable eq that involves the mic, speaker cone, room reflections and many other components of the overall sound. I seldom if ever use any overdriven or distorted guitar, yet the sound recorded via a mic on the speaker of my amp has a lot more vitality than if the sound is recorded via a D.I.
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Ici on parles Franglais
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10-31-2020, 06:10 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 395
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you just need a little 'air' and 'tone'
guitar players are notorious for being even more obsessive about their sound than engineers, why would you mess with that?
YOU DO NOT NEED TO BLOW UP YOUR SPEAKERS TO GET A GOOD SOUND
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OK?
IMO recording guitars DI = not getting 90% of the guitarists sound
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10-31-2020, 07:17 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Machine
guitar players are notorious for being even more obsessive about their sound than engineers, why would you mess with that?
YOU DO NOT NEED TO BLOW UP YOUR SPEAKERS TO GET A GOOD SOUND
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OK?
IMO recording guitars DI = not getting 90% of the guitarists sound
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The OP doesn't want to disturb the household, which isn't inconceivable however low the amp level.
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The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.
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11-01-2020, 08:05 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,423
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I record my guitars through a pedal board and a 20W Fender BassBreaker amp. The amp has an XLR Line Out and a mute switch.
I connect the line out to the interface, hit the mute switch, put the Ignite Amps Cab Emulation plugin on the track, select a cab/speaker combo IR file for the Ignite Amps, and have at it.
I don't use any amp sims preferring to get the best tone I can from the knobs and switches on my gear.
I bought a used Marshall amp a few months ago. I had to mic that because it did not have a mute switch like my Fender. Like you, the acoustics where I record are not very good, but using the switch on the amp to reduce it from 40W to 20W I was able to get enough volume from the amp to record, without upsetting the neighbors. But that limited me to recording only during the day. I love the results I get from micing the amp, but the ambient noise, (I'm not good enough at mixing to get rid of that) and limiting when I could play/record made me go back to using the Fender.
In the end, like most things, it comes down to getting the best you can with the gear you have to work with.
I will say that having an amp with a mute switch like my Fender has been a great help. Maybe keep an eye out for a used amp with a similar feature to use strictly for recording. You will still need some cabinet emulation on the track, and in case you're not real happy with the tone you get from that amp, you could put an amp sim in there as well to tweak that tone.
Good Luck.
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I wish I was the full moon shining off a Camaro's hood. - Pearl Jam
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11-01-2020, 09:51 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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I am wondering if you can still buy the old Hughes & Kettner RedBox speaker simulator/attenuator...
I still have my two Hughes & Kettner Mk1 versions of the Tubeman, which despite their age still do a pretty good job of doing a fairly wide range of tube/valve guitar amp sounds & have a redbox built into them.
I may go shopping on ebay & see what is out there of the old H&K Tubeman stuff. I also still use the H&K Statesman with 2x EL86 power valves... does a creditable Vox AC15 and also has all the stuff that the AC 15 didnt have, especially valve overdriven sounds and a very nice reverb. Sounds fantastic with anything using humbuckers.
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Ici on parles Franglais
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11-15-2020, 06:00 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 298
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Fender Hot Rod Deville - notoriously loud amp. I put a simple passive Electro Harmonix Signal Pad Passive Attenuator Pedal on it and it was a game changer.
oops on the pic size, pardon my laziness.
later on I changed out the pre-amp tubes, easiest installation ever and tamed the amp even further.
my home studio is across the hall from the bedroom where the wife works from home. it's fine. no, it's not the full potential of that amp but damn I love it.
for amp tones I put a mic on the amp.
for DAW/computer stuff I run the audio straight from the last pedal on my pedal board into my sound card. great way to experience and learn to invest in stereo pedals.
for fun I run the left channel of my pedal boards to the amp and the right channel to my sound card. then the room sounds really sweet.
a decibel meter hanging on the wall helps a TON in checking myself while I dial in my gain staging. no matter how hard I try it's always changing with so many other toys in the mix (youtube, external drums, bluetooth input etc)
on my ultimate wish list I want one of these
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