FR: I can't TAKE it! (new take functionality)

[Sevenfold]

Recording takes becomes a mess for me, like many others that have posted in the forums. Renewing the cause (squeak, squeak), I'm throwing my idea in the pot. It's not that my ideas are necessarily new -- I just hope something finally gets done.

Mainly, I'd like to see:

+ keep items in lanes
+ allow independent lanes splits
+ delete incomplete take, with confirm dialog

The picture below illustrates the idea, with the first track showing how it looks now, and the bottom track showing what I'd like to see.



In this simulation, a bottom-most selection trump ones above, somewhat like Cubase but more flexible since its based on selected items like Reaper uses now, instead of making holes on lower items to make higher ones play.

Currently the take lanes are contained by items, but in order for this to work they need to be contained by tracks, since there is no correlation between an item with 3 lanes vs an item with 5 lanes (which is why I think it is currently so clunky).

It would be tricky, but a preference that switches between modes would allow the current functionality to still be available. This all seems like a big challenge though for the devs to pull off without some drawbacks, but they never cease to amaze

[Coerce]

This is the only problem with reaper (for me right now). For reaper to be able to compete with other DAWs I think standard audio and a decent takes system should be higher on the list than any of the midi tweaks but that's just me a I don't use midi

I get by with FIPM but seeing the takes system work a lot better than it does already without having to use a ton of macros would be awesome.

[labyrinth]

Originally Posted by Sevenfold

Recording takes becomes a mess for me, like many others that have posted in the forums. Renewing the cause (squeak, squeak), I'm throwing my idea in the pot. It's not that my ideas are necessarily new -- I just hope something finally gets done.

Mainly, I'd like to see:

+ keep items in lanes
+ allow independent lanes splits
+ delete incomplete take, with confirm dialog

The picture below illustrates the idea, with the first track showing how it looks now, and the bottom track showing what I'd like to see.



In this simulation, a bottom-most selection trump ones above, somewhat like Cubase but more flexible since its based on selected items like Reaper uses now, instead of making holes on lower items to make higher ones play.

Currently the take lanes are contained by items, but in order for this to work they need to be contained by tracks, since there is no correlation between an item with 3 lanes vs an item with 5 lanes (which is why I think it is currently so clunky).

It would be tricky, but a preference that switches between modes would allow the current functionality to still be available. This all seems like a big challenge though for the devs to pull off without some drawbacks, but they never cease to amaze

I do agree with your premise, but also while using FIPM use mute to make takes work well.

[fiddler59]

Sevenfold, I couldn't agree more.....the solution you offer seems reasonable, and would go a long way toward making takes easier to deal with.

David B

[Dave Stannard]

Yes indeed, this would be awesome. Thanks for taking the time to mock up the demo picture, Sevenfold.

Question: How would I select the middle section of the bottom take in this case?

[brainwreck]

i like that idea, although i don't care if it makes reaper compete with app x. i'm not using app x, i'm using reaper.

[Coerce]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

i like that idea, although i don't care if it makes reaper compete with app x. i'm not using app x, i'm using reaper.

I don't mean complete as in trying to be app X it's just to me it's one of the basic features of any DAW that should be rock solid.

[d. gauss]

yeah, was really hoping takes would be sorted out for 3.0.

[Zargon the Destroyer]

I get by as it is, but I'm not a heavy editor of takes.

That said, editing drum takes (when I do) is worse in Reaper than in any other DAW I've used. I too was hoping for some sort of Logic/Cubase rip-off solution in 3.0.

Ho-hum.

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

...i don't care if it makes reaper compete with app x. i'm not using app x, i'm using reaper.

This is one of the most brilliant things I've read in these Forums, I deeply support your idea, now and ever.

Sevenfold, your ideas are pretty logical to me and I agree with them

+1 for v3.x

[Sevenfold]

Originally Posted by Dave Stannard

Question: How would I select the middle section of the bottom take in this case?

In the image below I've started with the previous image, then in the middle I've selected the bottom part which mutes all the parts above it. In the last track I've split the bottom part and only selected the middle of it. Whenever you select new parts that mute other parts, those muted parts still stay selected (I've got them set to a very slight highlight). To deselect a part just click it again to toggle.

[Sevenfold]

This would probably be a sub-request, but I'd like to view a single track's take/FIPM lanes, without displaying the other tracks' lanes (or am I missing how to do this?). It makes it more difficult to reference other tracks that have takes -- I just want to see their comp.

I'd also like a way to view the lanes at a set size (similar to the way tracks in folders work) and when the takes are hidden the track returns to its previous height. I guess what I'm after is more of a folder feel. Currently the takes rarely fit the track size, so I need to enlarge the track to fit them. Then when I hide the takes I need to shrink the track (now showing a huge waveform) again. This slows me down quite a bit, and macros work clunky at best and don't return the track to the previous size.

[semiquaver]

one nice thing about the current functionality is that you can step through takes with a key command: If the takes are overlapping ie of different lengths then this gets screwed up. Also your system only makes sense with lanes visible: by contrast the current scheme is quite workable without displaying lanes (this is how I usually use it).

I think the #1 problem is: splitting results in confusing display - original takes appear at different heights. This is just a display issue: if the takes are not vertically justified this could be ironed out in the current scheme.

REAPER's scheme requires takes to be all the same length - the multi-take object is a single file with the takes one after another. There are cool things about this - when you open the edge of a take that was recorded in loop mode you automatically get the beginning of the next one as desired...

so when a recording is made with a different length, REAPER splits the item into several mutitake items. I think this actually makes sense so long as the display issues are fixed.

[Silicon/Silicium]

There was a logic audio video in another thread showing how easy takes could be handled in that daw. sometimes inspiration is a good thing!

[Sevenfold]

Originally Posted by Silicon/Silicium

There was a logic audio video in another thread showing how easy takes could be handled in that daw. sometimes inspiration is a good thing!

Logic is my main DAW and I *love* the way it handles takes. But I'm guessing that any solution the devs implement will enhance rather than replace the current system. We're more likely to get results if we offer them some suggestions that wouldn't break older projects or alienate users that don't want it to change. In theory I think a solution is doable, but only the devs know for sure. And if they find a way to do all this AND incorporate swipe comps, then YES! please do it!!!

[Coerce]

The easiest way would be to keep the current system but be able to :

1. Select several items in FIPM (say you've recorded 4 vocal takes of a verse in the same track).

2. Right click on them and there's a new setting "set items as takes fipm"

3. Reaper then keeps the current positioning of the items (without merging them in a block with everything the same length and splits) and allows you to use the current take controls to edit them, if you see what I mean?

[WorldofNoise]

+27374627281826364627 for logic style comps/takes.

It is the easiest most flexable system in any DAW period.


EDIT: Logic style comping PER FIPM item...THAT would be the greatest system in any DAW ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MM2CEeSn8A <~~for those not familiar with the system.

[semiquaver]

I'm the odd man out here I guess but I don't see the great appeal of swipe-comping quite yet.

The process I use now is to select the phrase I don't like, split it, and step through the available takes to get the one I want .. This can all be done without mousing - Swipe comping is visual - you're supposed to see what you want - and also totally gui/mouse based...

meh.

[digaldeman]

Originally Posted by WorldofNoise

Logic style comping PER FIPM item...THAT would be the greatest system in any DAW ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MM2CEeSn8A <~~for those not familiar with the system.

Wow. Logic's way of comping is incredibly easy. I agree with the OP, REAPER's current way of doing takes is messy and the developers need to refine it.

[w00t]

i've actually become pretty anal about "complete" takes in loops, and would LOVE to at the very least see an option to "delete incomplete takes"; however i think there is definite work needing to be done to make "comping" go a little more easily and intuitively; while maybe not making a carbon copy of logic's style, something similar would be highly beneficial, especially when considering it could be used with any item on a fipm track!

[Koed]

I'm already very happy with the changes from 2.58 to 3.0b7. So let's not get greedy.
Was comping vocal takes tonight and I couldn't take it anymore (pardon the pun). So I switched the project over to 3.0b7.

What a relieve,thank you cockos! Now let's get this baby released so people don't get nervous over that 'beta' thing in the top bar.

I agree however that it can always be better and the ideas stated here would probably make it so.

[Lawrence]

I haven't personally used the Logic system although it looks good on paper. The new PT8 method doesn't look bad either.

PT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeggVbmpvQ

Samp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVi0kFFEBs4

Sonar: http://en.440tv.com/video.php/v/2323...-Editing-Tools

Sonar's clip groups are pretty cool.

Cubase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY7FiGQbNUk

Note: Not to "compete" with any daw but just to see and understand how some others are doing these things... to not reinvent the wheel.

[WorldofNoise]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

I haven't personally used the Logic system although it looks good on paper. The new PT8 method doesn't look bad either.

PT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeggVbmpvQ

Samp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVi0kFFEBs4

Sonar: http://en.440tv.com/video.php/v/2323...-Editing-Tools

Sonar's clip groups are pretty cool.

Cubase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY7FiGQbNUk

Note: Not to "compete" with any daw but just to see and understand how some others are doing these things... to not reinvent the wheel.

I've used most of these systems before, and Cubase/PT's comping is pretty good, but I still think the Logic quickswipe is faster and somewhat more flexible.

Examples:
-it's still tooless...just clicking and dragging
-it explodes the tracks out so there's no additional zooming
-it can hide all the tracks into the parent still leaving them editable later
-glueing, etc is just a right click on a little icon in the top right hand corner which gives you every option you could think of

to me at least...it just seems 100% complete without additional baggage of spliting, reshaping, etc.

[Sevenfold]

Originally Posted by WorldofNoise

I've used most of these systems before, and Cubase/PT's comping is pretty good, but I still think the Logic quickswipe is faster and somewhat more flexible.

Examples:
-it's still tooless...just clicking and dragging
-it explodes the tracks out so there's no additional zooming
-it can hide all the tracks into the parent still leaving them editable later
-glueing, etc is just a right click on a little icon in the top right hand corner which gives you every option you could think of

to me at least...it just seems 100% complete without additional baggage of spliting, reshaping, etc.

My favorite:
I save and name comps (just the info about what's swiped is saved), then recall them from region menus for quick A/B comparisons without needing additional tracks.

[nofish]

Originally Posted by Sevenfold

In this simulation, a bottom-most selection trump ones above, somewhat like Cubase but more flexible since its based on selected items like Reaper uses now, instead of making holes on lower items to make higher ones play.

+1

I've made up a FR for "only play bottom-most take" comping some time ago, feel free to add your voice.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=32313

This was initially going for "cloning" Cubase comp style, but I also like the idea of combining it with Reaper's selected items, like you suggested.

[beatbybit]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

I'm the odd man out here I guess but I don't see the great appeal of swipe-comping quite yet.

The process I use now is to select the phrase I don't like, split it, and step through the available takes to get the one I want .. This can all be done without mousing - Swipe comping is visual - you're supposed to see what you want - and also totally gui/mouse based...

meh.

it makes at least 2 of us "odd men".

[MPM]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

I haven't personally used the Logic system although it looks good on paper. The new PT8 method doesn't look bad either.

PT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeggVbmpvQ

Samp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVi0kFFEBs4

Sonar: http://en.440tv.com/video.php/v/2323...-Editing-Tools

Sonar's clip groups are pretty cool.

Cubase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY7FiGQbNUk

Note: Not to "compete" with any daw but just to see and understand how some others are doing these things... to not reinvent the wheel.

We NEED that Sonar's grouping thing. Take selection should follow on all grouped items. Without it's quite impossible to effectively comp multiple mic recordings. Otherwise Reaper's comping is already pretty good IMHO

[beatbybit]

Originally Posted by MPM

We NEED that Sonar's grouping thing. Take selection should follow on all grouped items. Without it's quite impossible to effectively comp multiple mic recordings. Otherwise Reaper's comping is already pretty good IMHO

ever tried the Multichannel editing method?

[Chris_P_Critter]

Originally Posted by WorldofNoise

+27374627281826364627 for logic style comps/takes.

It is the easiest most flexable system in any DAW period.


EDIT: Logic style comping PER FIPM item...THAT would be the greatest system in any DAW ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MM2CEeSn8A <~~for those not familiar with the system.

I just watched this vid - that is impressive. Hadn't seen this in Logic before.

[battla]

i think we should stop asking for logical/better take/comping behavior. there's been so many threads about it for so long now it can't be that they aren't getting the message. clearly either the devs disagree with the premise that this area needs attention, or they have decided to delay or avoid addressing it for some other reason. in any case, they have never so much as acknowledged the overwhelming support on the forums for an update to the takes system. so why keep bringing it up when they never even acknowledge the input? it seems more likely that we're encouraging them to dig their heels in further and push forward with a flawed paradigm, maybe just to spite their critics who knows? after all these are three youngish guys who's egos are probably heavily wrapped up in this project. what's clear at this point is that if it isn't a bug report, you're probably wasting your breath. there's an utter disconnect between what the user base is asking for and what the devs are focused on, and has been for a long time.
it wouldn't be so frustrating if reaper weren't so close to being a really great, groundbreaking application. it falls short in just a few areas, but it falls so woefully short in those areas that it just breaks your heart.

[Sevenfold]

Originally Posted by battla

so why keep bringing it up when they never even acknowledge the input?

Because of a recent thread (I'm posting just a quote, since the thread gets down right scary at the end)...

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

from what ive seen, development hasn't been strained by lack of resources. The devs work quickly and add new features all the time.

ASIO DM? Who the hell uses it anyway? Not too many people here... if more people used it and moaned, then we would probably have seen some more support.

i think people forget the history here - reaper's development seems to be driven and limited only initially by the developers (justin being at the helm) and then by the users and their feature requests, not by limited time or resources.

fact is, there have been issues that have been looked over FOR NOW i think because there just isnt that much demand. I reiterate this is what has happened and continues to happen.

So I'm doing my part to "moan" about takes by contributing any ideas I can, even though what I'm saying isn't really anything new. Will it help get takes updated? I have no idea.

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by battla

I think we should stop asking for logical/better take/comping behavior. There's been so many threads about it for so long now it can't be that they aren't getting the message. Clearly either the devs disagree with the premise that this area needs attention, or they have decided to delay or avoid addressing it for some other reason. In any case, they have never so much as acknowledged the overwhelming support on the forums for an update to the takes system. So why keep bringing it up when they never even acknowledge the input? It seems more likely that we're encouraging them to dig their heels in further and push forward with a flawed paradigm, maybe just to spite their critics who knows?

After all these are three youngish guys who's egos are probably heavily wrapped up in this project. What's clear at this point is that if it isn't a bug report, you're probably wasting your breath. There's an utter disconnect between what the user base is asking for and what the devs are focused on, and has been for a long time.

It wouldn't be so frustrating if reaper weren't so close to being a really great, groundbreaking application. It falls short in just a few areas, but it falls so woefully short in those areas that it just breaks your heart.

What makes you think they are not getting the message? The lack of response? This has happened before and will happen again. They have priorities, their agenda has priorities and sometimes they are not the same as ours. That's how's life... we need to learn to live with it. Now we got lanes for automation, multichannel, folder-in-folder, and a large amount of new new features that had been hammered in the past. Would we be bumping threads and saying "this is really important, how could you missed it?" for automation lanes if they weren't here? YES!... Believe me, once we get a "proper" takes/lanes/FIPM/whatever-good-comping-I-love system we'll moan again for some other stuff "we can't live without".

User base has different approaches. Some like Logic's, some others Cubase's, etc. If this area needs attention it will be addressed soon, I'm sure of that. I've recently realized, after watching and living this great journey to v3.0, that we can't make assumptions on what's being forgotten, by now, and what's been implemented already. Love the features you use and be full of patience for those you need... that's what I've learned, recently. I don't think "these three youngish" have egos involved in the process, they have proved they love what they do and they do it with passion and enjoy the journey with us as passangers (we can jump off the bus whenever we want, btw).

I'm not attacking you, I'm just sharing my point of view about your statements (just in case you get me wrong).

Long Live Cockos Team... Period

[Jeffos]

Mercado_Negro, I'm with you on this. I learn the same thing recently and I also even think that anger or billion of bumps perharps do not help, on the contrary...
... but when we read beween the lines of all those FRs/BRs, the lack of feedback seems to be a COMMON POINT and looks like - for me - the most important FR ("meta" FR to be right), isn't it ?

I think there's something to improve about that (we can guess the reason why... so may be with the help of "advanced" users could help, as a 1st filter ?) 'cause cockos must not "lose sight of what's is really important"

[tomgadd]

Originally Posted by Sevenfold

Recording takes becomes a mess for me, like many others that have posted in the forums. Renewing the cause (squeak, squeak), I'm throwing my idea in the pot. It's not that my ideas are necessarily new -- I just hope something finally gets done.

Mainly, I'd like to see:

+ keep items in lanes
+ allow independent lanes splits
+ delete incomplete take, with confirm dialog

The picture below illustrates the idea, with the first track showing how it looks now, and the bottom track showing what I'd like to see.



In this simulation, a bottom-most selection trump ones above, somewhat like Cubase but more flexible since its based on selected items like Reaper uses now, instead of making holes on lower items to make higher ones play.

Currently the take lanes are contained by items, but in order for this to work they need to be contained by tracks, since there is no correlation between an item with 3 lanes vs an item with 5 lanes (which is why I think it is currently so clunky).

It would be tricky, but a preference that switches between modes would allow the current functionality to still be available. This all seems like a big challenge though for the devs to pull off without some drawbacks, but they never cease to amaze

+++++++yes please change that way!!

[Sevenfold]

Some of the banter above is starting to feel a little "good cop, bad cop"...

GOOD COP: look, we know you did it. We have proof that you're NOT on the take. You didn't align your tracks. Give me what I requested and there will be no crossover.

BAD COP: (barges in) Listen kid, I know you're the Reaper! I'm gonna loop your ass and feed it to the DAWgs. When I'm done with you, your users are gonna split your items and hardware your regions, right in your own software!

GOOD COP: Don't listen to him. I know you didn't mean it -- you're just with the wrong mix. I'm just trying to keep you in a free position. Stop running mute and you won't serve unsynchronized time.

And the surprise ending would be...

REAPER: Yeah, I knew you guys were gonna group up on me. Well I've gotta a surprise -- you guys are gonna freeze in your tracks. I WAS on the take, and I'll give you everything you need. You just gotta wait more than a fricken minute.

[battla]

seven, i can't begin to fathom what the above post means, but i love it! i'm gonna read this again later when i'm higher.

[toggle]

Finally, the spell has been broken by battla! Let this thread continue!

+1 for more attention to takes.

Tom

[reaperdeeper]

Why can´t the whole Take thing not just be switched off? Just override the old take?
I dont need comping at all!!!

[Chris_P_Critter]

Originally Posted by battla

seven, i can't begin to fathom what the above post means, but i love it! i'm gonna read this again later when i'm higher.

You sound like this guy...

[A.j.]

Hello all, long time no see... Way back in 2007, I posted the infamous "can of worms" thread on this very topic (here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=12532).

Just heard 3.0 was coming on another board, thought I'd check in after a long time away - to see if any progress had been made on that front. Sorry to see things are still pretty much the same. When I heard "Version 3 is coming!", I thought for sure takes/lanes would be getting a big facelift.

For what it's worth, I'm still a big Reaper fan, at least in theory. Once takes/lanes "grows up", I may even make the switch (from Cubase/Nuendo). So, +1 (yet again!) from me. Til then... see you guys again when v4 is announced .

Aj