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Old 08-06-2017, 05:50 PM   #41
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While I don't doubt this, C# and .NET have not been designed with realtime in mind, but for "office"-type of applications.
I agree but.... Some of the most intensive server apps in the world run on top of .NET with Native only reserved for stuff like accessing binary trees at the sector/offest level or audio drivers etc. because that is the type of low-level thing native is best at - it isn't really a server vs office app thing as it is "I need direct access to the hardware" thing or an "I need to be a little more fine grained and dangerous" thing but.... The app can have a couple of modules/DLLs that do that native piece and the other 95% be .NET and performant.

To your point though, yes there would be a risk of latency up through those abstraction layers when doing this via .NET/UWP vs native. That isn't because the code can't run fast it's because it's being translated through multiple layers of code.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:08 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Airal View Post
Yes, that is the draw back of .NET. ... Again, the world isn't perfect.
So it's obvious that realtime APIs (such as Midi over BT) need to be offered in native versions (as well) (such as a plain old Midi Device), and applications would not need to be forced (and should not requested to) internally implement support .NET bridging for such inappropriate stuff.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Some of the most intensive server apps in the world run on top of .NET ... and performant.
True. But "realtime" is not about good overall execution speed but about good (i.e. defined maximum) latency.

With controlling the movement of an engine, a (not necessarily very short) defined max latency needs to be met in any case -> "hard realtime".

With multimedia, a really short maximum latency needs to be met close to always -> "soft realtime".

With server applications for many clients, performance needs to be optimized, so that the latency for each user is as good as possible -> "non realtime".

Hence, regarding a DAW, the GUI could happily be done using .NET, but anything handling the data stream (Midi, audio, ...) needs to be native.

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Old 08-07-2017, 05:29 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
True. But "realtime" is not about good overall execution speed but about good (i.e. defined maximum) latency.
Yep I agree.
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:29 AM   #45
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Regarding the original issue:

I just did a little bit of searching and found a software called "midiberry" that might (or might not) be helpful.

-> http://newbodyfresher.linclip.com/

-> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/stor...m-requirements : "Have tested basic connectivity and the app just works. I haven't really put it thru its paces long term yet but I look forward to. I am using the yamaha MIDI/BT adapter with my yamaha wx5 and midiOX for breath controller mapping. even with multiple s/w layers latency is low enough for good response. Good Job!"


Moreover I found the "Yamaha UD BT01 Bluetooth MIDI for Usb" device that would allow for connecting a controller with a Midi over USB interface at the other site.

Moreover there is the the "Yamaha UD-WL01 Wireless LAN-Adapter" that uses WLAN instead of bloototh.

What would be helpful to connect a controller with a Midi over USB interface wirelessly to Reaper ?

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Old 02-04-2018, 03:05 AM   #46
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Pipe seems to have gotten this working
-> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....ight=MIDIBerry
-> https://www.instagram.com/p/BewmgRBB...=pipelineaudio

-Michael
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Old 02-06-2018, 11:38 PM   #47
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It would be nice to have it native though, it seems to have variable latency , and not in a good way

Please Justin, please please please!!!
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Old 02-07-2018, 12:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
It would be nice to have it native though, it seems to have variable latency , and not in a good way
This rather obviously is introduced by the wireless technology. (WIFI will be still a lot worse on that behalf).

"native" Reaper support will not help a bit.

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Old 02-07-2018, 01:05 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post

"native" Reaper support will not help a bit.

-Michael
Probably not... but I have BTLE metronomes that can sync 5 metronomes to Android that sync and never miss a beat so it isn't the wireless technology as much as it is delays in the endpoints themselves such as the networks stack to DAW and back or network congestion which isn't the protocol's fault.

For example, here is audio data traveling wirelessly and handling real-time remote oscilloscope display using websockets and a web browser...

https://youtu.be/8ISbmQTbjDI?t=137
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Old 02-07-2018, 01:10 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
This rather obviously is introduced by the wireless technology. (WIFI will be still a lot worse on that behalf).

"native" Reaper support will not help a bit.

-Michael
Not at all, running it into my iPad I canít ever feel the latency. Unpairing and then re pairing in windows resets the minimum latency, depending on what midberry is doing and whether it has the focus also changes the latency
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Old 02-07-2018, 01:19 PM   #51
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People use Bluetooth mice and keyboards all the time for FPS games. Hell we use Bluetooth mice and keyboards to control reaper. Itís certainly possible to have acceptable latency over Bluetooth for this

In fact , why canít we just got a keyboard and stick it inside that pedalboard?

THAT would be a slick project!!!
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Old 02-07-2018, 01:26 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post

In fact , why canít we just got a keyboard and stick it inside that pedalboard?

THAT would be a slick project!!!
You can, it's just bubble buttons.
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Old 02-07-2018, 03:14 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Probably not... but I have BTLE metronomes ...
For regularly repetitive signals you can compensate latency via software. That is how time/date synchronization via Internet works.

-Michael
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Old 02-07-2018, 03:18 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
we use Bluetooth mice and keyboards to control reaper. Itís certainly possible to have acceptable latency over Bluetooth for this
.... without any Bluetooth mouse support built into Reaper.
There is nothing but standard mouse support in Reaper, so standard Midi support would work with Bluetooth provided a decent OS driver for this is available.

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Old 02-07-2018, 03:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
For regularly repetitive signals you can compensate latency via software. That is how time/date synchronization via Internet works.

-Michael
reg:
Quote:
This rather obviously is introduced by the wireless technology. (WIFI will be still a lot worse on that behalf).
I keep seeing wireless blamed as if it can't be performant but it can... My point is there is a conflation that just because something is wireless, it must be latent and the problem, that is not always the case in 2018.

I have a MIDI to Pitch controller also over BT which I can play in real time into Reaper without issue. Then there is the realtime vid I posted which runs off of a $3 USD micro controller the size of a quarter... and I've got plenty of microprocessors et al that I can measure and show that just because it's WiFi, it isn't suddenly unusable latency wise. That isn't always the case but we don't want to dismiss immediately just because it travels through the air.

I'm sure I could build what he wants without needing to be native in Reaper but my time for it is just to low. Full-featured microprocessors are a huge rage right now, if the need exists the solution can be found. ESP32 comes to mind.
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:19 PM   #56
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I'm sure I could build what he wants without needing to be native in Reaper but my time for it is just to low. Full-featured microprocessors are a huge rage right now, if the need exists the solution can be found. ESP32 comes to mind.
This would likely be a good start, I have an ESP32 or few lying around but again, no need and no time right now.

https://github.com/neilbags/arduino-...r/BLE_MIDI.ino
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Old 02-07-2018, 06:47 PM   #57
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There's a guy in the Facebook REAPER user's group who is really pushing the Arduino stuff for reaper control, I'll show this to him.

The expression pedals would be tricky with keyboard guts, but I'm eyeing that new bluetooth Korg NanoStudio thing which seems to run fine in REAPER as donor parts
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Old 02-07-2018, 06:57 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
There's a guy in the Facebook REAPER user's group who is really pushing the Arduino stuff for reaper control, I'll show this to him.

The expression pedals would be tricky with keyboard guts, but I'm eyeing that new bluetooth Korg NanoStudio thing which seems to run fine in REAPER as donor parts
You saw the vid/thread I posted of the one-knob automation MIDI controller I just built over the weekend didn't you?
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Old 02-07-2018, 07:20 PM   #59
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Gonna go watch it now
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Old 02-07-2018, 11:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I keep seeing wireless blamed as if it can't be performant but it can...
Technically, Blutooth LE features a rather low average latency (other than pre-LE hardware). Here both sites need to be specified to use LE.

But with every wireless technology nou need to consider that there are disturbances on the air that can increase latency greatly in some points in time.

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Old 02-07-2018, 11:18 PM   #61
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ESP32 comes to mind.
Unfortunately it does not feature a USB Master interface .
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Old 02-08-2018, 12:36 AM   #62
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Technically, Blutooth LE features a rather low average latency (other than pre-LE hardware). Here both sites need to be specified to use LE.

But with every wireless technology nou need to consider that there are disturbances on the air that can increase latency greatly in some points in time.
Everyone considers that, then they make the plethora of stuff out there work.

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Unfortunately it does not feature a USB Master interface .
-Michael
On the sending end, it doesn't need USB (even if it did I'd just add or switch components), nor does it need to be the only component on the receiving end.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:18 AM   #63
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Airal has left the building? I am finding this a very interesting discussion, btw.

Sticking to my lounger and a large tub of popcorn, but hopefully getting an education here.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:01 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Airal View Post
Midi over USB is not Midi.

If it were, it would not be called Midi over USB.
Here's what the MMA has to say:

https://www.midi.org/specifications/...tions-and-info

Quote:
The original MIDI 1.0 Specification called for using a 5-Pin DIN cable to connect MIDI compatible devices, but today there are many different "transports" capable of carrying MIDI data, and the specification for 5-Pin DIN has been updated.
Here is the Device Class Definition for USB-MIDI. BTW, "USB-MIDI" is the name, "MIDI over USB" is just a description:

http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/d...ocs/midi10.pdf

USB-MIDI is MIDI.

UWP is only for Windows 10. Cockos/Reaper *should not* need to do anything, because even if BT MIDI devices do not present as standard MIDI devices, there will exist UWP programs to take BT MIDI and send it to a standard MIDI port.

If anyone would like to gift me a sweet BT keyboard or control surface I have a Win10 box and wouldn't mind some C# time (yeah I'm weird).
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:43 PM   #65
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In fact C# is really weired for such embedded/realtime/driver stuff
-Michael
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:38 PM   #66
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In fact C# is really weired for such embedded/realtime/driver stuff
-Michael
Depends on what you are doing, 99% of what we need here doesn't require true driver coding, only talking to existing interfaces/drivers. Of course that's better phrased as managed instead of C# since you could write the same code in managed C++ or even managed VB.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:58 PM   #67
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And here we go, with the WIDI Bud dongle, it shows up as an actual MIDI port in REAPER and MIDI latency is the same as it is on my iPad, ie, the same as plugging a cable in

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfZbSXoB...=pipelineaudio
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:40 PM   #68
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Great !

But it's a shame that many PC boxes and Laptops (including the "embedded" PC I am using for Live Playing) already feature Bluetoth hardware and a pure software solution should be able put that to work .

OTOH, using an USB extension cable and place the WIDI Bud at a distance to the HF disturbance creating computer and as close to the controller (for me this would be the Breath controller Headset) as possible (resulting in fixing the Bud at the keyboard stand), might help to improve reliability "on stage".

Does the WIDI Bud feature a signal quality display ?

Are you still using the Yamaha at the controller site ?

-Michael
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Old 02-20-2018, 01:08 AM   #69
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I dont know if it has a signal quality display. I tried moving the Yamaha midi thing inside the pedalboard box, it seemed to work fine, but I moved it back outside so I wouldn't be nervous. Its still at the pedalboard. I havent tried going thru walls or anything yet. I figure it should work as well as my mouse, so line of sight for sure
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Old 02-20-2018, 08:00 AM   #70
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I havent tried going thru walls or anything yet.
That of course is not necessary. What I am afraid of is HF disturbance produced by whatever equipment is near the stage. E.g. high power digital amps, Lighting boxes, WiFi, Cellphones, Microwave ovens, Computers, ...

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