Old 06-16-2017, 07:55 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by serr View Post

I would expect to have to go folder diving if the location was anything but the project folder of course. Not asking for anything beyond that.
Looking at the path of the current project and telling the dialog to open there would actually be incredibly easy.
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:00 AM   #42
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You'd think right?

This is a legit nitpick here!

It can take some moments to browse for that first file*. I feel where the above outbursts are coming from.


* And then if you fat finger something and accidentally choose a different file to replace it? Woo boy that's a paddlin'! This can lead to one of those temper tantrums that the neighbors call the authorities over.
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:06 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by serr View Post
You'd think right?
What I still don't know is if cockos is using SHBrowseForFolder but if so, it is entirely possible...

Code:
  BROWSEINFO      bi;
  LPMALLOC        pMalloc = NULL;    
  LPITEMIDLIST    pidl;
  char            acStr[MAX_PATH];
  CString initialDir("C:\\SomeDir");
  CString resultsDir;

  if  ( SHGetMalloc ( &pMalloc) != NOERROR )  return; 

  ZeroMemory ( &bi, sizeof ( BROWSEINFO ));

  bi.pidlRoot = NULL; 
  bi.pszDisplayName = acStr;
  bi.ulFlags = BIF_RETURNONLYFSDIRS | BIF_RETURNFSANCESTORS;
  bi.lpszTitle = "Please Select Directory";
  bi.lParam = (long)(LPCTSTR)initialDir; <=============
....
People here could probably grab coffee and read the doc I linked to above and answer every question in the thread with the only exception being Cockos may use some other method.
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:24 AM   #44
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My sense is that for the first time (the first file) Reaper simply doesn't even try to browse. It's coded to start with the search dialog and not even consider to browse for a candidate itself.

After the first file selection, now it finally gets to the code to tell it to browse for matching file names (ignoring extensions in my example) in the folder you just pointed it to.

Seems like adding a first part to have it look in the project folder to begin with isn't asking for much. Absolutely pause and request an OK click but let's do away with the need to browse for the files ourselves if the files are in the project folder.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:08 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by serr View Post

Seems like adding a first part to have it look in the project folder to begin with isn't asking for much.
Reaper already does this, and if the file is in the project folder, it just loads it and doesn't even ask.

Test:

Project with audio file in /project/media.

Move the audio file to /project.

Open Reaper, works fine, no prompt and source properties shows Reaper picked up the new path. The entire reason for the dialog AFAIK, is that it is a "who the fark knows, help me find it" situation minus any anomalies I'm overlooking. All the OP wants is not to have to start at the root of the OS when the dialog opens which I agree with.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:19 AM   #46
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I thought everyone was in agreement on the symptom and that this really happens...

Start with a project with wav files in the project folder.

FLAC the wav files. (Outside of Reaper)

Open the project.
The dialog window opens asking to browse for a new file or search for the old one.
Browse for the first file it is looking for (file.wav) and point it to file.flac, and now it just finds and replaces everything else.

We're asking for Reaper to search the project folder for same_name.new_extension and have that part done with just an OK prompt.

Not in the same project folder? Fair enough to be forced to manually search.
Still in the very same project folder? Come on now!


That's really the long and short of it.
Reaper doesn't consider to even look initially.


I can only guess but I'd bet the above outburst came about from fat fingering that one day and replacing a file with the wrong one. If you want smoke coming out of your ears, that will do it.

PS. I hope I said 'search' vs. 'browse' correctly there. This language gets ambiguous as used too.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:25 AM   #47
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Does someone of you use macos? Or is it just Windows issue?
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:31 AM   #48
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I thought everyone was in agreement on the symptom and that this really happens...
It looks for the file automatically just fine as per my test, if the file is in the root of the project folder (even though it previously lived in say /media) it finds and loads it and the user will never know anything went wrong, yay.

However, if it is not in the root of, or the defined media folder you have the choice to tell reaper to recursively search from any location you wish. So think about that, it's not in the project folder, or the file missing dialog would never have popped up. There is no sanity (beyond convenience/familiarity) in it beginning with the project folder, reaper already knows the file isn't there!

What's most important about the ask, is the user experience of that particular "folder browser" dialog, when navigating to the path you want it to search. That's why he called it folder diving; I'm familiar with that pain in other low level legacy apps, total pain in the ass to use because there are few options, no left navigation pane and it can't even be resized.

One other tidbit, if it isn't in the project folder (because Reaper checks by default), there is already a worthwhile chance the user has no idea and may want to actually start at the root of the file system or other location. Also, since there is a Search feature and a manually load file feature, we MUST assume if using search, you don't know where the file is, if that is the case, where you gonna start searching? You might have an idea and want to search some folder but if using search, you are saying you don't know exactly where the file is.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:33 AM   #49
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Yeah. If you know that the file is in some subfolder, you can just choose folder and Reaper will find it.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:34 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
Yeah. If you know that the file is in some subfolder, you can just choose folder and Reaper will find it.
Yep. But the ask is about the user experience/efficiency of the actual browsing to that folder.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:44 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Yep. But the ask is about the user experience/efficiency of the actual browsing to that folder.
Yeah. Reaper needs reconstruction. All the elements should be:
1. skinnable
2. os-independent.
Then, and only then, will we have a solution.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:54 AM   #52
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Yeah. Reaper needs reconstruction. All the elements should be:
1. skinnable
2. os-independent.
Then, and only then, will we have a solution.
That's the other problem, Reaper can't do that without writing the entire dialog from scratch which has caveats. If you want an idea, see the media browser which is essentially a homebrewed browse dialog minus the dialog part. IOW, if it were a 20 minute job, that media explorer would have worked and looked fantastic on day one.

I also noticed from some quick coding, it isn't just legacy, it's the fact it is a browser folder dialog period so my legacy comments before don't apply - I was thinking of a truly older method. The only thing Cockos can do is ground up one (not ideal, honestly) or hack the fileopen or savefile dialog both of which are more refined but I'll predict there will be at least one caveat there too based on solving this same issue in my own apps. They can also possibly pass a param to show a textbox on the existing one.

I did notice the existing one is resizeable which I'd suggest doing for now as it makes navigation much easier.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:57 AM   #53
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Are we talking about two different things here?

Do this:
Start with a project with wav files in the project folder.
FLAC the wav files. (Outside of Reaper)
Open the project.

The dialog window opens asking to browse for a new file or search for the old one just as I and others have said. Reaper only then figures out to do the same for the remainder of the project files.

Can someone say that this does NOT happen on their system for that first file?
ie. The now flac files just load up with no prompting? Not even an OK dialog conforming these are the replacements you intended (which I think would be a safe and better choice)?

OSX here. Never touched Windows for any of this. It happens every time.


As soon as I read the original post I was triggered, so I jumped on board. Instantly brought back memories of the fat finger example I mentioned. My neighbor probably remembers the time the weird guy next door suddenly started swearing really loud.
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Old 06-16-2017, 10:02 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by serr View Post
Are we talking about two different things here?

Do this:
Start with a project with wav files in the project folder.
FLAC the wav files. (Outside of Reaper)
Open the project.

The dialog window opens asking to browse for a new file or search for the old one just as I and others have said. Reaper only then figures out to do the same for the remainder of the project files.
We must be talking different things, I don't get the last sentence since it is irrelevant to this discussion as far as I know. What we are speaking of is if a file is missing, in order to recursively "Search" some outside folder, you have to navigate aka "Browse" to that outside folder to do so, and that navigation experience somewhat stinks due to the browse dialog that is presented.

On the main subject, I must add, that the dialog is resizeable, that makes things a little better and it appears to remember the previous size:

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Old 06-16-2017, 10:24 AM   #55
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What we are speaking of is if a file is missing, in order to recursively "Search" some outside folder, you have to navigate aka "Browse" to that outside folder to do so, and that navigation experience somewhat stinks due to the browse dialog that is presented.
Yep that's different.

Sounded like the thing I was talking about initially.

For your issue, you can just click the back button in the browse dialog window that opens right? (Or click in the 'previous locations' shown in the drop down, or a sidebar shortcut, or...) It's a couple extra clicks is what I'm saying. Sorry though, I don't mean to dismiss that complaint!

The example where you are forced to browse for the 1st replacement file but then Reaper 'takes over' for the rest... There's really no just one or two extra clicks for this. You are really forced to browse for that first file it tells you it's looking for. Not just the folder. That specific file.
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Old 06-16-2017, 10:36 AM   #56
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I was wondering that if it's a Folder Browser thing, that the old style XP folder browser is pretty bad imho.

The newer type from window from vista and above could easily be used, that at least has an explorer type dialog, and a way to type in the path, I think?

Here's the comparison again for the folder dialogs.

Windows XP Style.


Window Vista, Win 7 Style


If cockos is using ifiledialog, then they could set a flag in the options "FOS_PICKFOLDERS"

Here's a thread I found, and I did manage to do a test with code in an extension plugin just to see if the window would open, and it did.
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:39 AM   #57
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This can be changed easily. Of course. But the request must be done politely without hate. Definitely without HATE in caps. And many of us have other requests before and still waiting. Go back to the queue please
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:50 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
It's the only one where legacy components are involved, Microsoft has no control over what legacy components an end-developer chooses to use (IF it is a backwards compat or cross-platform problem) - they would LOVE it if people only used the "new and improved" features of later OSs, that's why they wrote them.

Based on the OPs last posts, I think this is as possibly Reaper dev issue, minus writing my own code to prove which it is. I should, it would remove all this wild speculation and pontification that is occurring.
Oh, I know, I just have a general hatred for microsoft. Not sure why cockos decided to use this dialog and not another, but it could still be microsoft's fault, and ultimately we could blame them for having the need for the existence of the stupid dialogs in the first place. You could say it's to be xp compatible, and that might be true, but then they should have made xp better. Their whole entire way of organizing folders and everything is really quite poor.

Don't get me wrong, they do some things very right, but overall, I just hate their business ethic, the way they treat customers, and a lot of ways they implement things, which just overcomplicates stuff.

I know what they do is difficult, and far more complicated than I know, but still, the top brass over there, I don't like.
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:55 AM   #59
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Well, I don't have any Microsoft software anywhere on my machines. Certainly not Windows. I don't think this one can be blamed on the OS.

Understandable that Reaper shouldn't just assume and go wild making file substitutions on an assumption. But at least have it pop a window up and be already pointed to the obvious choice and only make me click OK.

I would expect to have to go folder diving if the location was anything but the project folder of course. Not asking for anything beyond that.
The thing is, folder diving can be made a lot easier if we can use tools and shortcuts available to us.

For me, I have a "REAPER" shortcut for my reaper preferences, and "reaper" shortcut for my projects in my explorer window, as well as a "DAW Stuff" shortcut, which has all my presets and samples in it.

So, whenever I run into a dialog that's in the wrong place, I can easily just copy that chain and paste it into the text entry field, and it will bring me close, at the very least.

Or, you can just copy the source of a file in your project to get to your project, and then paste that.

Goes a lot faster than having to go folder to folder. I like long folder chains as well, so that it is more organized, but I still have folders with lots of entries in them, which makes it annoying to go through.
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Old 06-16-2017, 12:08 PM   #60
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Their whole entire way of organizing folders and everything is really quite poor.
How would you do it? I don't know of a way other than a logical hierarchy like every OS does - and the literal analog of filing cabinets pre computers. Always made perfect sense to me other than this one dialog being aggravating. I'm sure my view is different, been in computers since the 80s but most of these issues never really hit me personally, maybe I have the computer kavorka. I know I have a built in knack for computers but certainly it can't be that much more than the average person.

I will say there are some who never really invest time to learn the tool (OS, Reaper whathaveyou), not saying you at all.... which causes pretty much constant frustration taken out on whoever created the tool. That doesn't excuse all software and bad coding obviously, but knowing the tool is as important as knowing the craft. That's just an OT observation but I simply don't see how some can live like that, in constant darkness and frustration so to speak. That usually makes someone, somewhere mad when I say that but it does exist.
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Old 06-16-2017, 01:04 PM   #61
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Yeah. I think that API call works across all Windows versions, but the dialog it throws up looks a little better and different in the later versions, but it's still basically the same thing.

In the bigger picture, not a big deal to me. I mean, how often do we even do that? (excluding people with poor housekeeping habits)
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Old 06-16-2017, 01:06 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Yeah. I think that API call works across all Windows versions, but the dialog it throws up looks a little better in the later versions, but it's still basically the same thing.

In the bigger picture, not a big deal to me. I mean, how often do we even do that? (excluding people with poor housekeeping habits)
Yea, I created one earlier just to see. If they resize, it makes it a little better because you don't have to scroll before clicking. There is a truly legacy dialog that is like that, leftover from possibly NT/95 that blows donuts because you are constantly scrolling in this tiny window which is the one I was thinking of at first.
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Old 06-16-2017, 01:18 PM   #63
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How would you do it? I don't know of a way other than a logical hierarchy like every OS does - and the literal analog of filing cabinets pre computers. Always made perfect sense to me other than this one dialog being aggravating. I'm sure my view is different, been in computers since the 80s but most of these issues never really hit me personally, maybe I have the computer kavorka. I know I have a built in knack for computers but certainly it can't be that much more than the average person.

I will say there are some who never really invest time to learn the tool (OS, Reaper whathaveyou), not saying you at all.... which causes pretty much constant frustration taken out on whoever created the tool. That doesn't excuse all software and bad coding obviously, but knowing the tool is as important as knowing the craft. That's just an OT observation but I simply don't see how some can live like that, in constant darkness and frustration so to speak. That usually makes someone, somewhere mad when I say that but it does exist.
What I don't like is the way they do libraries, and organize sort of defaults, and how they hierarchy they build is. Also how they set it up so that new computers automatically install with all the "user" folders on the same partition as windows. It's just all a mess. The way that if you do a search in explorer, it brings you to "search world" which is cut off from everything else, and you can't just navigate from wherever the found files are, and don't get me started with the way they try to push metro on you.
Some of it is fine, like "Program files" and "windows" and "system" and the way they let you bookmark those is great. The pinned "favourites" is also great. But everything else they try and make you do, is all disorganized and ridiculous, imo. Especially given they put all your User information on the windows partition. That doesn't even make a lick of sense. I get it there might be some technical reason they did it that way, but logically speaking, you want all your documents and stuff like that, on the separate partition and all your operating software on the windows one.

The basic folders thing is sensible, and every computer I've ever used worked that way. It's the way they organized everything that bothers me. everything in the left pane of explorer, except for the basic drives, and favourites. They even have Desktop twice, as in everything is in desktop, and then there's the actual desktop.

It's like they don't have a solid plan of how the OS should be used, and go off that.

I think a lot of that is to do with building off older versions, but still, it could be better, imo.
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Old 06-16-2017, 01:43 PM   #64
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What I don't like is the way they do libraries, and organize sort of defaults, and how they hierarchy they build is.
Those are sort of meant for user configuration so you can just add a bunch if disparate folders to a library. I like it OK but don't use it much because I never got in the habit. I wanted to like them but I'm too ingrained to just click on the actual folder.

Quote:
Also how they set it up so that new computers automatically install with all the "user" folders on the same partition as windows. It's just all a mess.
It could potentially ask you during setup but that adds a potentially mysterious question to the other 80% of users who have no idea and would not know what to do - that really is a big deal. Otherwise, best practice in general is "I (the os installer) knows where the system drive is and that it is healthy because we are installing here" which believe or not reduces complexity and potential setup issues by a large margin, allowing you to easily move them later.


Quote:
The way that if you do a search in explorer, it brings you to "search world" which is cut off from everything else, and you can't just navigate from wherever the found files are,
Right-click and choose open file location - actually always test that in various places, even browse dialogs etc., very handy aka the bomb. That's all I have to answer right now but thanks for the chat.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:53 AM   #65
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Thanks for all the investigation and replies. My nerves have calmed since I last posted. It may be another year before they boil again for this nitpick. Edit: Wow, in a year I'd hope that I would have replaced some of my frustrating REAPER usage with my work-in-progress tools.

Is the conclusion that this is NOT an easy fix? I guess it would still be speculation in any case.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:43 AM   #66
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest two things that I think we can possibly all agree on...

1. A person with the skill level of Justin or Schwa wouldn't have any trouble coding a custom folder browser dialog. I think what they do and have done easily makes that comment reside in the land of factual reality.

2. I also think this thing (easy or not) probably doesn't rise to the level of really flagging their radar. In other words, even if something is easy to change, you still need to be motivated to make that change, deem it necessary, and I seriously doubt if they do.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:45 PM   #67
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Those are sort of meant for user configuration so you can just add a bunch if disparate folders to a library. I like it OK but don't use it much because I never got in the habit. I wanted to like them but I'm too ingrained to just click on the actual folder.
I find they are useless and just lead to weird dead ends, and add more clutter, and create another shitty version of a dialog like what's bothering us now.

Just give me favourites to whatever I choose, don't add a bunch of useless folders to my "users" folder, and put it on the non OS partition. Libraries is superfluous, and only makes things worse, imo.



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It could potentially ask you during setup but that adds a potentially mysterious question to the other 80% of users who have no idea and would not know what to do - that really is a big deal. Otherwise, best practice in general is "I (the os installer) knows where the system drive is and that it is healthy because we are installing here" which believe or not reduces complexity and potential setup issues by a large margin, allowing you to easily move them later.
People shouldn't be asked. It should just do it. On the computers I'm talking about, it's the installer that creates the partitions on the brand new computer.





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Right-click and choose open file location - actually always test that in various places, even browse dialogs etc., very handy aka the bomb. That's all I have to answer right now but thanks for the chat.
That doesn't work. That's how it should work, but it doesn't. It brings to "that folder" but it's that folder inside the weird search universe, meaning the path isn't in the path bar, you can't go up in hierarchy, or anything like that. You are in "Search\the folder the file you found was in". Not "C:\the regular folder hierarchy\the folder the file you found was in". If it was like you are saying, that would be exactly what I want.

It used to be like that in earlier versions of windows.
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:27 PM   #68
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People shouldn't be asked. It should just do it. On the computers I'm talking about, it's the installer that creates the partitions on the brand new computer.
How would it know what "you" want without asking? We must be misunderstanding each other because just throwing user folders on some non-system drive without asking would be a terrible idea for multiple reasons. That's why most OS's don't do it, and having them on the system drive, for most users is just fine and generally causes no problems.
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That doesn't work. That's how it should work, but it doesn't. It brings to "that folder" but it's that folder inside the weird search universe, meaning the path isn't in the path bar, you can't go up in hierarchy, or anything like that.
Latest version before the creators update, which version are you referencing?






Where it took me... Worked for a folder as well.






If you are just clicking open, that will stay as search because you are drilling down inside the search, instead of opening the file/folder itself like open file location does.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:56 PM   #69
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How would it know what "you" want without asking? We must be misunderstanding each other because just throwing user folders on some non-system drive without asking would be a terrible idea for multiple reasons. That's why most OS's don't do it, and having them on the system drive, for most users is just fine and generally causes no problems.
What problems. The computer comes empty, and they make the choice for you already anyway. Just the worst choice, as far as I can see.

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Latest version before the creators update, which version are you referencing?






Where it took me... Worked for a folder as well.






If you are just clicking open, that will stay as search because you are drilling down inside the search, instead of opening the file/folder itself like open file location does.
Oh ya, right, that's it, it's when you open a folder from within the search, it should go to that folder location, and leave the search thing entirely, except for the "back" navigation should be able to get you back there. I think the downside is that will usually mean it will trigger the search again, but that's a fact you'd have to live with. Entering a folder and staying in the Search hierarchy, to me, is stupid. It should function as the "open file location" thing does.


I also wish it let me "open file location" in another window. Or even if it gave me tabbed explorer windows, that would be nice. This would let me keep the search results, without needing it to start the search again, and I could explore into folders if I want. But if I enter the folder I want, I should just be in that folder in my system, imo.
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Old 07-02-2017, 08:31 AM   #70
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:04 AM   #71
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...
What did you want to say? FLS has the same dialog?
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Old 07-02-2017, 12:34 PM   #72
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Any time I see a dialog that does it correctly, I'm going to post it. It's part of my protest.
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:01 PM   #73
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Any time I see a dialog that does it correctly, I'm going to post it. It's part of my protest.
Ok, now I see. Well, there are some really old bug that should be fixed. I'd like to see these bugs fixed before adding new features.
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Old 07-07-2017, 03:18 PM   #74
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Old 12-05-2017, 07:28 PM   #75
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I always get annoyed when any application uses this windows dialogue thingy.
It would be sweet if it was different. +1 from me
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:09 AM   #76
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FUCKING FIX IT.
Yeah, that's gonna do it.
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