Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > Dstruct's Casa De Nitpicks

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-02-2008, 06:33 AM   #1
drew
Mobile
 
drew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London & São Paulo. Hardcore commercial REAPERite
Posts: 1,645
Default Tap BPM: Can we really tap to 3 decimal places? Why not 1 dec. place only? (DONE)

Hey all

Is it not safe to say that our tapping will never actually be *that* accurate?

Isn't it also quite likely we're really looking for a rounded value (or 1 decimal place at most) within a few taps?

I just feel this great feature would be friendlier to work with if it didn't say "ah yes - you want 124.837!". I always find myself then manually adjusting to a whole number.

I'm grateful tempo can be expressed that accurately if we need to sync with a performance etc - I just don't think we're tapping it that way.

Cheers

drew

DONE (2.301)
__________________
Proudly using REAPER exclusively for professional music production at Qsonics.com and recording broadcast and narrative voiceovers at DrewWhite.com.

Last edited by Dstruct; 06-04-2008 at 02:19 AM.
drew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2008, 11:10 AM   #2
themensch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 153
Default

Maybe YOU can't tap to the thousandths place, but some of us can!

There's plenty of reasons to have that kind of granularity.
themensch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2008, 03:37 PM   #3
drew
Mobile
 
drew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London & São Paulo. Hardcore commercial REAPERite
Posts: 1,645
Default

So - why did you not give any?
__________________
Proudly using REAPER exclusively for professional music production at Qsonics.com and recording broadcast and narrative voiceovers at DrewWhite.com.
drew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2008, 07:32 PM   #4
Justin
Administrator
 
Justin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 12,438
Default

Hmm you make a good point, drew.. suppose it'll have to be optional tho, bleh...
Justin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2008, 07:53 PM   #5
Diogenes
Human being with feelings
 
Diogenes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A place that allows me to protect myself...
Posts: 8,245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by themensch View Post
Maybe YOU can't tap to the thousandths place, but some of us can!

There's plenty of reasons to have that kind of granularity.
Call me Mr. Dubious... but I doubt you can. Unless you are the same guy who posted a while back who claimed he could HEAR one millisecond difference in latency.

On the other hand, what does it hurt to have that kind of resolution available? Nothing I guess...

I probably can't tap to the nearest tenth so who am I to question your tappiness?

D
Diogenes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 04:35 AM   #6
DrJ
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 238
Default

i have trouble tapping to a whole number so i understand drew's point, but i think the hi-definition could be very useful if we could click and drag on the bpm box, like in Ableton Live (click on whole number for wide adjustment, or on thousandths for fine-tuning - this can be really useful for beatmatching things that arent synced to host tempo.
DrJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 05:55 AM   #7
drew
Mobile
 
drew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London & São Paulo. Hardcore commercial REAPERite
Posts: 1,645
Default

As an option I guess it would simply be a "number of decimal places" (0-3 or whatever).

Electribe & several 'Tap' pedals I've seen are integer only, Kaoss pad does it to one decimal place. But when you tap in REAPER I still doubt many people would want more resolution than that.

But I'm waiting to hear any of your reasons, themensch.

DrJ - i like your point about the bpm box!
__________________
Proudly using REAPER exclusively for professional music production at Qsonics.com and recording broadcast and narrative voiceovers at DrewWhite.com.
drew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 10:27 AM   #8
themensch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
So - why did you not give any?
I thought they would be fairly obvious:

1. variations in metronome quality
2. people that don't use a metronome

..need I go on?
themensch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 10:33 AM   #9
themensch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
Call me Mr. Dubious... but I doubt you can. Unless you are the same guy who posted a while back who claimed he could HEAR one millisecond difference in latency.
I can tell the luthier when his strobe tuner is wrong - why couldn't I be able to detect a slight beat difference between, say, 120bpm and 120.001 bpm? It's not that I have magic ears, I just know what to listen for

The key for bpm is "over time." Go tap out a dozen or so of your favorite songs and report back the bpm, eh?

I'm not a believer in removing functionality because a few folks don't use it. I would agree, though, that allowing folks to constrain the significant digits would be useful - at least, until someone tries to remix something.

FWIW, I doubt I could hear a 1ms latency difference, unless I were to listen to it over time. All those milliseconds add up....
themensch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 10:41 AM   #10
carbon
Human being with feelings
 
carbon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Eesti
Posts: 2,376
Default

Yeah, just manually truncate/round the last digits, if you don't want them.
__________________
KasparTORN
carbon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 02:24 PM   #11
bullshark
Human being with feelings
 
bullshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: traîne mes guêtres en Québec...
Posts: 5,390
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by themensch View Post
I can tell the luthier when his strobe tuner is wrong - why couldn't I be able to detect a slight beat difference between, say, 120bpm and 120.001 bpm?
Because that's a difference of 0.000016 second; or roughly one second divided by 100 000 if you prefer. You'd need to live in a timewarp to be sensitive to that kind of time differential.

And +1 for the whole-number tap tempo option, as bleh as it might be

Last edited by bullshark; 06-03-2008 at 02:28 PM.
bullshark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 02:35 PM   #12
themensch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullshark View Post
Because that's a difference of 0.000016 second; or roughly one second divided by 100 000 if you prefer. You'd need to live in a timewarp to be sensitive to that kind of time differential.

And +1 for the whole-number tap tempo option, as bleh as it might be
True, I'd never be able to tell in one instance, but you're all missing the point. Across a 3-minute song, it would be noticeable.

Seriously, before anyone else comments, go tap out a dozen or so of your favorite songs and report back the tempo. If any of them end up as whole numbers, I'd be surprised.
themensch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 04:04 PM   #13
Justin
Administrator
 
Justin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 12,438
Default

I think the real issue is that the overall precision of your taps, even with averaging multiple hits, is probably 1bpm or more.. so those extra digits are pretty meaningless/random.

I'd love to see if someone can tap reliably with more precision than 1bpm.. even when tapping to a metronome...
Justin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 04:56 PM   #14
bullshark
Human being with feelings
 
bullshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: traîne mes guêtres en Québec...
Posts: 5,390
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by themensch View Post
Seriously, before anyone else comments, go tap out a dozen or so of your favorite songs and report back the tempo. If any of them end up as whole numbers, I'd be surprised.
My favorite recording were done a long time ago, and on those the tempo is all over the place; third decimal or not, they ain't going to line up to grid from start to finish, you'd be lucky if you get 4 bars to line up.

Newer recording made with DAW do have tighter tempo, but even then they often vary throughout different song sections. Analyzing the tempo while accounting for those variation, more often than not they do end up on whole numbers.

Anywho's, my point wasn't to take that precision away for those who feel they need it, but for what I do it is pointless so a rounding up option would be welcome.

Last edited by bullshark; 06-03-2008 at 04:58 PM.
bullshark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 05:06 PM   #15
bullshark
Human being with feelings
 
bullshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: traîne mes guêtres en Québec...
Posts: 5,390
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I think the real issue is that the overall precision of your taps, even with averaging multiple hits, is probably 1bpm or more.. so those extra digits are pretty meaningless/random.
Yes, so it would be nice if my DAW software were to take care of the rounding for me. No rush thought.

Quote:
I'd love to see if someone can tap reliably with more precision than 1bpm.. even when tapping to a metronome...
Especially tapping a mouse button.
bullshark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 06:08 PM   #16
gregh
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by themensch View Post
Maybe YOU can't tap to the thousandths place, but some of us can!

There's plenty of reasons to have that kind of granularity.
Heaps of research on tapping along with a click or rhythm and so forth. For example you might find that (paraphrased) "Accuracy at 'isochronous tapping tasks' depends on tempo. For highly trained percussionists the standard deviation of time around the target time can be as good as .5% For the average person it's about 2%. "
that's teh standard deviation - the raw numbers will be bigger.

Search for Bruno Repp for more infomation than even his mother could love
gregh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 10:59 PM   #17
themensch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 153
Default

I'm no highly-trained drummer, but I'm no slouch on the bass. While I wouldn't consider myself christ-like in my ability to keep tempo, I would say I'm pretty darned good at it. To within .001? Naw. But music is full of hyperbole. I would, however, be willing to put my money where my mouth is - I've had to tap out tempos for clients innumerable times, and nothing ever came back as a whole number, not once - but it wasn't because I was off!

My point was that there's definitely a place for such precision, given the inaccuracy of clocks. Unless you're syncing to an atomic clock, you can count on drift. Given the option, it seems fairly trivial when there are bigger objectives like ReWire and MIDI details that would be much more useful to the crowd.

@bullshark: I hear ya regarding music made a long time ago. Free-tempo or loose tempo isn't helped by any clock, and I wasn't meaning to cover them by my example. Still, some of those old cats had some skills not seen in today's musicians. I listen to some of my old records from the 30's and marvel at the accomplishments.

@gregh: fascinating, I'll look it up. I wasn't meaning to comment on the human element so much as the inaccuracy of computer clocks. And, as usual, my tongue-in-cheek comments are taken more tongue-sticking-out by the reader.
themensch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 05:01 AM   #18
moss
Human being with feelings
 
moss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 392
Default

How can I tap the BPM??? I couldn't find any menu option or a hint in the manual.

Is it also possible to tap through a whole song to adjust the tempo to a freely played song? That's a feature I am really missing so far.
moss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 05:44 AM   #19
gregh
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by themensch View Post
I've had to tap out tempos for clients innumerable times, and nothing ever came back as a whole number, not once - but it wasn't because I was off!
I agree there is every chance heaps of stuff can be precisely measured to show that the tempo is not a whole number. But is that because the difference between 100.031bpm and 100 is perceptible or is it a function of improved measurement accuracy? Unless you are syncing two songs together it doesn't matter if the variation is less than that we can distinguish when listenign to the piece in isolation. Is it the case that anyone can tell the difference between a piece being played at 101bpm or at 102? 101.01? 103? I'm sure there would be quite a bit of reseach around on that
gregh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 06:33 AM   #20
Sonic Vampire
Human being with feelings
 
Sonic Vampire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregh View Post
Is it the case that anyone can tell the difference between a piece being played at 101bpm or at 102? 101.01? 103? I'm sure there would be quite a bit of reseach around on that
playing around with tempo shifting on recordings I have certainly noticed a difference in the feel of the song within half a BPM.

could possibly have had something to do with the algorithm of the time streach (havent done it with reaper yet)
Tempo can be very critical for some songs
Sonic Vampire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 07:40 AM   #21
themensch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregh View Post
Unless you are syncing two songs together it doesn't matter if the variation is less than that we can distinguish when listenign to the piece in isolation.
This is exactly my point, and people sync two or more slices of songs together all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregh View Post
Is it the case that anyone can tell the difference between a piece being played at 101bpm or at 102? 101.01? 103? I'm sure there would be quite a bit of reseach around on that
Maybe it's psychosomatic, but when I work on pieces, I fiddle with the bpm until it "sounds right" and even being off by 1 bpm can make a song feel "wrong." And that's just my stuff.

If I was, say, trying to steal a beat from a rapper for a client (don't ask) and the bpm was off by even .05, it shows up quickly. I guess a graphical representation would serve this discussion better but I'll leave that exercise to someone more graphically inclined.
themensch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 11:01 AM   #22
Justin
Administrator
 
Justin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 12,438
Default

I'm not saying that fractional BPMs aren't perceptible, I'm saying that tapping on a computer keyboard, mouse button, or even MIDI surface has an error rate where when tapping you may get 120.0bpm or 120.5bpm or 120.8bpm while tapping the same thing...
Justin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 11:49 AM   #23
labyrinth
Human being with feelings
 
labyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 2,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I'm not saying that fractional BPMs aren't perceptible, I'm saying that tapping on a computer keyboard, mouse button, or even MIDI surface has an error rate where when tapping you may get 120.0bpm or 120.5bpm or 120.8bpm while tapping the same thing...
Totally true. Tapping with a mouse is just not very precise, so make it workable. Good job rounding it to the nearest whole number.
__________________
www.res-ref.com | Resonant Reflections
iMac 3.2 GHz (i5 4570)/16GB RAM | OSX 10.10 (Yosemite) | Interface: Focusrite 18i6
labyrinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 01:23 PM   #24
themensch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I'm not saying that fractional BPMs aren't perceptible, I'm saying that tapping on a computer keyboard, mouse button, or even MIDI surface has an error rate where when tapping you may get 120.0bpm or 120.5bpm or 120.8bpm while tapping the same thing...
True enough - my solution to that has always been to tap for a number of bars. If I can do it with a Dr. Beat, I can do it with my touchpad.
themensch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 01:30 PM   #25
gregh
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I'm not saying that fractional BPMs aren't perceptible, I'm saying that tapping on a computer keyboard, mouse button, or even MIDI surface has an error rate where when tapping you may get 120.0bpm or 120.5bpm or 120.8bpm while tapping the same thing...
that's what the research says - but
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themensch
Maybe it's psychosomatic, but when I work on pieces, I fiddle with the bpm until it "sounds right" and even being off by 1 bpm can make a song feel "wrong." And that's just my stuff.

If I was, say, trying to steal a beat from a rapper for a client (don't ask) and the bpm was off by even .05, it shows up quickly. I guess a graphical representation would serve this discussion better but I'll leave that exercise to someone more graphically inclined.
has got me wondering if there is "perfect tempo" just as there is "perfect pitch". Given the other weirdnesses of the brain one would think that someone has it, but I'll go off and see if there is any thing written about it
gregh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 01:48 PM   #26
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,358
Default

Hey
Chiming in
Isn't it time (or quite) to add mousecroll to increase or decrease tempo ?
(and midi CC to tempo) ?

THanks !
Cheers
sinkmusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2008, 02:22 PM   #27
themensch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregh View Post
has got me wondering if there is "perfect tempo" just as there is "perfect pitch". Given the other weirdnesses of the brain one would think that someone has it, but I'll go off and see if there is any thing written about it
That's an interesting aside - I've always had a really good tempo sense, even as a young whippersnapper. I wouldn't call it perfect, but I continually get comments about my ability to stay in the pocket.

Sadly, I'm a klutz on the skins
themensch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 01:42 AM   #28
Jack Winter
Human being with feelings
 
Jack Winter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,787
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I think the real issue is that the overall precision of your taps, even with averaging multiple hits, is probably 1bpm or more.. so those extra digits are pretty meaningless/random.

I'd love to see if someone can tap reliably with more precision than 1bpm.. even when tapping to a metronome...
I can't I'd plead for one decimal point and an averaging option and an option setting the interval to average over, e.g. average over 8 beats, etc...

If recorded to a click this should get you close enough, and if not then...
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040,etc. :)

Last edited by Jack Winter; 06-05-2008 at 01:45 AM.
Jack Winter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2008, 10:46 AM   #29
themensch
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 153
Default

As long as it's configurable, I don't care if you make it round to the nearest 10's digit.
themensch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.