Old 04-17-2012, 12:25 PM   #1
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Default Why is MIDI editing item-based?

To be honest, this is more than a nitpick for me, but this seemed like the most appropriate forum for this post.

Why, really, is midi editing in Reaper dependent on items? Why is it not as it is in some other software like Sonar or Cubase, where the media editor allows you to edit / add midi notes to a track in your WHOLE project? I suspect it might be because tracks in Reaper not relegated to being either midi or audio tracks. I have a feeling this fact might affect a lot of aspects of midi users complain about. But this is just a guess. I'm not a programmer. I just don't see why else such seemingly simple ideas are not implemented at least as options when so many other aspects of Reaper are so complete and customizable. I'd love to hear some other thoughts on this.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:13 PM   #2
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It should be track based for sure. Period. Ask ED.
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:11 AM   #3
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I think it was a design decision made from the beginning. One of these things you cannot easily change later on.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:58 AM   #4
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I for one like item based editing. (Yes, I'm a minority).

I have used track based editing and to me, it feels wrong - it's like creating one giant MIDI item from start to end of a song. Every time you edit the track you have to double check what bar you are at before you edit. This happened *all* the time on the last DAW I used.

With item based editing, I open an item and I'm then editing *that* item. No confusion.

PS - I realize that *heaps* of people want "track based" MIDI editing. I just hope that if it's implemented into Reaper it done *much* better than the way I have used it. Or better still, a big "OFF" switch in the preferences.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:45 AM   #5
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With item based editing, how do you make changes that affect the whole midi track. For example when I select all of the hihats and get their velocities closer together (velocity compression)?
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0rd View Post
I for one like item based editing. (Yes, I'm a minority).

I have used track based editing and to me, it feels wrong - it's like creating one giant MIDI item from start to end of a song. Every time you edit the track you have to double check what bar you are at before you edit. This happened *all* the time on the last DAW I used.

With item based editing, I open an item and I'm then editing *that* item. No confusion.
"Track Based" (in this case) means "being able to edit all the midi data that's on the same track, at the same time", which you can't currently do. It has nothing to do with one big midi item or one big midi clip or anything like that. If this were "track based" you'd be able to marquee select and edit notes across both of the two individual midi clips below, something you cannot do now.

Granted, if you prefer not being able to do that, that's fine... but you should know what people are actually asking for ... which is not what you talk about above. They only want to be able to easily edit what's clearly visible, together.

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Old 04-18-2012, 04:28 PM   #7
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"Track Based" (in this case) means "being able to edit all the midi data that's on the same track, at the same time", which you can't currently do.
Yes. And two major features:

1) We want chase notes/events to work per-track (not just per-item).

2) We want to be able to perform MIDI operations (such as Quantize) for multiple items, or the whole track, in one go. These functions need to be accessible from the main interface (not just per-item from the MIDI editor).
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:01 PM   #8
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Yes to Evan, and yes, the whole track editable, but with obvious visual separation between media items. (thick black bars or something). I want separate items as I color code them differently, but track based editing.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:24 PM   #9
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I like item based better, personally.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:54 PM   #10
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So make it track based but with an option to lock yourself out of touching the rest of the track if you're that kind of person.

Can someone point me to a video or something that shows a situation where being locked out of the rest of the track was a good thing? Other than hitting select all notes (which could just have a different, item-based action if that's the whole problem).
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0rd View Post
I for one like item based editing. (Yes, I'm a minority).

I have used track based editing and to me, it feels wrong - it's like creating one giant MIDI item from start to end of a song. Every time you edit the track you have to double check what bar you are at before you edit. This happened *all* the time on the last DAW I used.

With item based editing, I open an item and I'm then editing *that* item. No confusion.

PS - I realize that *heaps* of people want "track based" MIDI editing. I just hope that if it's implemented into Reaper it done *much* better than the way I have used it. Or better still, a big "OFF" switch in the preferences.
+1
i feel the same

For electronic music (what i do) its completely wrong thing

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Old 04-19-2012, 03:52 AM   #12
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Like I said before, make it optional. You're confused about what bar you are at, I want to be able to edit all my velocities for a given note. It would be easier to just make it track based with the option to lock out and make really dark the items you aren't editing.
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
1) We want chase notes/events to work per-track (not just per-item).

2) We want to be able to perform MIDI operations (such as Quantize) for multiple items, or the whole track, in one go. These functions need to be accessible from the main interface (not just per-item from the MIDI editor).
+1 - these are the big 2
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:17 AM   #14
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I'm not big into midi,but if you want to change a group of items on a track,why not just export the whole track as a midi file,then import it again?
Just tried it.It takes about 10 seconds.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:46 AM   #15
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Because workarounds suck.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:52 AM   #16
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yeah I dont think I would be happy with that workaround if I had to do it for every track.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:59 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by djjedidiah View Post
It should be track based for sure. Period. Ask ED.
ED was asked. ED agrees infinitely. Item based is just WRONG for MIDI. I mean, you can still have items and use them as "clips" which you can duplicate, stretch, compress, split, etc. (see those Krueger videos, for the millionth time!), but truthfully, I want to be able to see all items in the MIDI editor, and NOT WORRY about which one of those items is actually selected for editing... If I have a drum track with multiple items around, and I want to change something on ALL kicks there (like humanization or velocity randomization, whatever), I simply cannot do it intuitively from the MIDI editor, without messing up my items by glueing them. THIS IS SO WRONG!


Be it a design decision or not, [b]it was a bad one from the start.[b] The pros do not outweight the cons in this case. It is not impossible to change it. Cockos just needs to do the mileage, but they don't seem eager to do it, which will ultimately probably make me leave Reaper sooner or later... Because I really need this paradigm of MIDI workflow in Reaper.

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Old 04-19-2012, 05:09 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjedidiah View Post
With item based editing, how do you make changes that affect the whole midi track. For example when I select all of the hihats and get their velocities closer together (velocity compression)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by djjedidiah View Post
Because workarounds suck.
You asked "how do I make changes......?"

Do you really consider a 10-second process to be an unsuitable work-around?
Doesn't seem like a big price to pay to achieve the apparently impossible.

Quote:
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yeah I dont think I would be happy with that workaround if I had to do it for every track.
Jason,...every track? ....what complexity of midi tracks are you editing that would make you unhappy with such a simple and quick process?
Are you editing multiple tracks at once?
You also still have your original items-based track to revert to.
You can create a folder for midi export/import.It takes seconds.

I'd say you're all spoiled for choice!

If you did have a native choice between "item based" and "track-based" midi editing,you'd still have to enter a menu to choose between them.That too could be an "unhappy" experience,as it would take almost as long,and require you to use your mouse hand

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Old 04-19-2012, 05:18 AM   #19
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I'm talking about a preference in the program. Beyond that, it's midi glueing as a workaround, and then I lose mu custom item coloring and splits between items, which then have to be redone by hand. That sucks.
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Old 04-19-2012, 06:01 AM   #20
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Beyond that, it's midi glueing as a workaround, and then I lose mu custom item coloring and splits between items, which then have to be redone by hand. That sucks.
Indeed, that sucks EXTREMELY HARD. But some people don't seem to understand that.
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Old 04-19-2012, 06:56 AM   #21
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This thing still defies final clarification.

Items are just clips. You can still double click on an item or clip and fill the key editor with it, even in a track based editing paradigm, or edit it by itself.

I think various misunderstanding of all that is clouding the issue. Moving to a track based system wouldn't change anything in Reaper now in that regard, if done correctly, it would actually add functionality and improve workflow.

You don't need a preference for that. You just double click a clip, the ME fills up with it (zoom on open), and you edit it.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:04 AM   #22
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Default there IS organization in music

Is the op asking something like,
"why do we have books divided up into chapters?"
"Why do cities insist on breaking up streets with intersections?"
"Can't I just KEEP GOING?"
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:07 AM   #23
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I'll have to relent on this one. Some people just won't ever get it, the actual request, what it really is.

That's fine though because Schwa gets it. Trust me, when/if he changes it, you'll like it.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:33 AM   #24
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I don't like that "if". I much more like that "when".
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:41 AM   #25
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That's exactly it. If it is implemented like that, I.E. double click and the media item fills the media editor, then great, I'd love that. This doesn't change your workflow people!

BTW ED, thanks for the color toolbar. That sealed the deal on my reaper migration.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjedidiah View Post
With item based editing, how do you make changes that affect the whole midi track. For example when I select all of the hihats and get their velocities closer together (velocity compression)?
I would use a plugin like "JS IZ/MIDI_Velocifier II" etc and/or tweak the MIDI device's "velocity amp" amount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
"Track Based" (in this case) means "being able to edit all the midi data that's on the same track, at the same time", which you can't currently do. It has nothing to do with one big midi item or one big midi clip or anything like that. If this were "track based" you'd be able to marquee select and edit notes across both of the two individual midi clips below, something you cannot do now.

Granted, if you prefer not being able to do that, that's fine... but you should know what people are actually asking for ... which is not what you talk about above. They only want to be able to easily edit what's clearly visible, together.
I can only explain the way in which I have used "track based editing" before in another DAW and it is *exactly* how I described - like one big MIDI item - extremely bad. Sure there are still "clips" in the track view but once you go into the MIDI editor it looks exactly like one "big clip". This I hate!

I say it again: "I just hope that if it's implemented into Reaper it done *much* better than the way I have used it. Or better still, a big "OFF" switch in the preferences"

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I want to be able to see all items in the MIDI editor, and NOT WORRY about which one of those items is actually selected for editing...
That's the problem - I do.
I hate the idea of double clicking a specific item but then not knowing whether I'm editing it or something else. To me, that's totally irrational. This is how "track based editing" worked when I used it and for me, it's unproductive.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:01 AM   #27
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This is how "track based editing" worked when I used it and for me, it's unproductive.
For me, item based MIDI editing is as unproductive as it gets. So what are we goign to do now?
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:04 AM   #28
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For me, item based MIDI editing is as unproductive as it gets. So what are we goign to do now?
make it optional. period
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:05 AM   #29
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But there is NO NEED to make it optional. All there needs to be is having mouse modifiers that would relate to the whole track vs. the current item/s. So then people can set them up however they want.


For crying out loud just go and see how good this works in other hosts. Absolutely no need to make it optional.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:05 AM   #30
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Quote:
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"Track Based" (in this case) means "being able to edit all the midi data that's on the same track, at the same time", which you can't currently do. It has nothing to do with one big midi item or one big midi clip or anything like that.
Indeed. Hopefully yes, this is not about "if" but "when".
Lot of good things have happened regarding midi the last two years, hopefully the devs continues with that.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:11 AM   #31
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It would be cool if i can select multiple items and MIDI editor will extend. This way it would be handy
like in Logic
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:57 AM   #32
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Quote:
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The selected part is highlighted, just like Reaper, and the other clips are dimmed. The only difference is that you don't have to give focus to non-selected clips to edit or to select the notes in them ... you can just select and edit whatever is on the track, if you choose to even view more than just one clip you double clicked, which is 100% optional.


Looking at that cap, it's *heaps* better than what I have used. The key being:
a) it's optional (clicking one item only shows that item)
b) the "dimming" of the other MIDI items (when more than one is selected)
c) the clear distinction between multiple items especially the "blank" areas in between.

The DAW I'm talking about is the underwater "ping" one. (Typing its name makes me feel nauseous).
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
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For me, item based MIDI editing is as unproductive as it gets. So what are we goign to do now?
This is easy for me as I can use Cubase to program in, and Reaper for playback.
I like the items for putting projects together with, but that's about it.
Otherwise I use Cubase to create and program, but Reaper for playback.
If they never change it, I can live with that.
As of now it is the most stable ITB Sequencer I have ever used, it's MIDI automation has no noticable delay, and one only needs to use some motorized faders to verify the jitter free movement.
But most of us have several compressors, several emulations, etc.
I will use multiple DAWs, no sense waiting for something to change after it already has been created to switch back to do what everyone else does.
Perhaps this has something to do with it;s incredible stability under pressure.
I mean we have MAC and Fader automations for lights, and many hardware units and effects, and never once a single cough, or gag, and certainly no skipped events like Cubase or the giant bloaters do consistently.

I say keey Reaper 4 for your gig or mastering, and use a workhorse with a different track based workflow.
Even hardware sequencers of Yore can track based edit large amounts of data with a single push, but they don;t have undo......
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:53 PM   #34
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I think track-based editing has been discussed at great length in the past, there are even a number of current threads discussing it, and it is clear there is a gigantic demand for it. I'm sure it would also heavily increase sales. This is why I figure there must be some heavy complications in implementing it. If it were easy to put into Reaper. given all the requests for it I'm sure it would be there. Going back to my original question, what, then, exactly is preventing Reaper from having this, at least as an option? That's what I really want to get at here.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:27 PM   #35
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If it were easy to put into Reaper. given all the requests for it I'm sure it would be there.
Really? Cuz another feature, don't change the zoom level when switching between multiple MIDI items, would seem easy to implement. But it hasn't been. It seems like MIDI isn't really high on the Reaper developers priority list.
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:38 AM   #36
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Going back to my original question, what, then, exactly is preventing Reaper from having this, at least as an option? That's what I really want to get at here.
I'm also only guessing of course, but I'd say one of the major difficulties to implement track-based MIDI editing in REAPER might be 'free item positioning mode'. This 'mess' I created in a few seconds (and I don't know of any other DAW you can do this), if Midi editing is track based and all clips would be activated at once, how would that suppose to work without being highly confusing and not likely to create user errors ?
(don't get me wrong, I like FIPM and often use it, I'm not speaking to abandon it)

[img]http://img713.**************/img713/1406/fipmmidi.png[/img]

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Old 04-26-2012, 09:12 AM   #37
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I'm sure it would also heavily increase sales.
No, it won't. Such things will never increase any sales.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:42 AM   #38
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I would take full track editing over free item positioning any day.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:48 AM   #39
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i love to use separate midi items with cc data in free item position mode, so i can slice'n'dice it independently

This feature should stay in Reaper!
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:54 AM   #40
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Some clever item border indication will be needed in the piano roll, able to present the individual borders of multiple items. That's for fipm, but same for ordinary multiple lanes and also for MIDI on separate tracks one would like to edit simultaneously. It would need to be done anyway.
In the piano roll you could choose to edit either one of the items (like now) or any combination of them simultaneously. They are distinguishable by their source color or by item color (if you assign some).

Things will get confusing when some of the items in your picture were looped with individual length. Some niftier item loop indication will be necessary for the MIDI editor, so that multiple items looped at different times can make visibly sense.

Maybe we should come up with mockup pics of how the piano roll could possibly present multiple items with unequal borders and loop length which are all "active for editing"?
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