Old 06-21-2013, 03:49 PM   #1
kindafishy
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Default pins, windows and dialogs, oh my...

Hey Devs, are we ever going to get this plugin FX window over an undocked mixer business sorted out? This is seriously the most irritating thing about REAPER to me. I know, pin the window. Know what? That's a sucky solution that falls apart when an unpinned window opens under a pinned one, or I try to open the render dialog and there is a pinned window on my track side that hides the render dialog. I've unpinned everything because the solution is more irritating than the problem.

For an undocked mixer, can't you guys just throw it into another frame so it behaves like the main frame and be done with it? Why is the undocked mixer a dialog?
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:41 PM   #2
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+1

Just to be clear, I applaud the fact that Reaper puts stability first and foremost and cosmetics last. But this is getting ridiculous!

Clearly Reaper started with the everything in one window concept - like the old Digital Performer look I guess. But now we have band-aids on top of fixes on top of workarounds... Well, it appears that way anyway if you come from, say Protools where everything can open in it's own window and none of the windows are special cases.


Can we get just a plain simple window for everything that behaves like a normal window? No special windows that can't be closed like the arrange window. No pins!! (Where'd that even come from? Seriously, a clumsy workaround like this instead of just fixing the bug with the various windows? This one was an eyebrow raiser!) Open a window, move it to a different space, move it to it's own screen even. Flip to all windows and click on one and it comes into focus. No special exceptions that stay in the back or can't be placed on top of another and so forth. There are some real ringers like opening a 2nd plugin window and the previous one jumps behind the mix window! Open both the arrange window and the mix window and try to flip to all windows and then select and bring the arrange window in focus. This will not work no matter what you have "docked" or "pined". You can size the mix and arrange windows so you can see both and directly clicking on the arrange window still doesn't bring it into focus! These bugs are glaring.


I mean, keep the odd features now that I'm sure someone loves and would now hate me for this suggestion (ie. the docker and pins). But just a tiny amount of resources spent on a little bit of GUI cleanup would be very welcome. Windows that open and focus normally and can be moved around to any space is all we're asking for.

Last edited by serr; 06-22-2013 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:03 PM   #3
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Yeah, plugins opening under other plugins is getting old. Please fix :-).
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:24 PM   #4
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Yes, being unable to answer dialogs because of this is sometimes quite ... errm ... funny. Well, sorta ... well, not really ... well ...

-Data
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Old 06-22-2013, 12:46 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafishy View Post
I've unpinned everything because the solution is more irritating than the problem.
Yes, so have I. The whole thing drives me bananas.
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:16 AM   #6
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Very annoying.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:27 AM   #7
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+1000000
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:07 PM   #8
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I like when you create a track with a VST that have many outputs and you get a window like this

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Old 07-31-2013, 11:33 AM   #9
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Default Window Placement

I run multiple monitors with lots of plugins and the mixer undocked in a floating window.

I REALLY wish REAPER would remember where I put the windows. Opening a project and ending up with a stack of windows, centered on my primary monitor, is really annoying.

Ideally, the window locations would be saved along with the project.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:10 PM   #10
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I always thought a "keep underneath" button for the mixer would solve a lot of problems
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwok View Post
I always thought a "keep underneath" button for the mixer would solve a lot of problems
Good grief don't give them any more 'workaround' ideas! Have you seen the pin thing they did?!

This is a very simply request: Just normal windows for everything that can be focused on, moved, etc and that then stay where you last left them.

I'm aware that Reaper does many things itself as opposed to using OS calls and I imagine this is one of those scenarios.

I also get the everything in one window with the 'docker' style that Reaper initially started with.

But for the rest of us who want simple normal window operation, this is a glaring unfinished corner of Reaper.
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:00 PM   #12
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Just an FYI... "TopMost" which is the basic property being set here is either true or false for any particular window (at the OS level) and the last window set has precedence. AKA there is no "almost TopMost".

I'm not describing this to say there is not solution but I can say that by setting 20 VST windows and the mixer topmost, there is no easy way to know what you, the user actually want to happen as the user. Fixable, likely but not extremely simple I would imagine since that from an OS perspective, that property was intended to give a single window precedence above all others only (assuming that is the property they are using).
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
don't give them any more 'workaround' ideas! Have you seen the pin thing they did?!
it's not a workaround, unless solving a problem is a workaround
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Old 07-31-2013, 04:08 PM   #14
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I love the feature, personally.
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Old 07-31-2013, 04:26 PM   #15
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I think while the pin solution was fast and solved the immediate problem, it's not optimal.

The application windows Z-Order should be (imo) pre-defined, from top to bottom, plugs, editors (including the console) and main window. Best case, you shouldn't have to pin down a plugin Ui to keep it from falling behind a larger editor or mixer window, it probably should do that by itself, exist on a layer that keeps it there above the console or editor windows all the time.
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Old 07-31-2013, 04:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post

The application windows Z-Order should be (imo) pre-defined, from top to bottom, plugs, editors (including the console) and main window.
I agree and the problem itself interests me from the geek perspective. Here is info on how it works from MSDN (only assuming they use this) but the behavior seems similar. As far as I can tell, Reapers pins are sort of toggling the topmost property:

Quote:
The Z order of a window indicates the window's position in a stack of overlapping windows. This window stack is oriented along an imaginary axis, the z-axis, extending outward from the screen. The window at the top of the Z order overlaps all other windows. The window at the bottom of the Z order is overlapped by all other windows.

The system maintains the Z order in a single list. It adds windows to the Z order based on whether they are topmost windows, top-level windows, or child windows. A topmost window overlaps all other non-topmost windows, regardless of whether it is the active or foreground window. A topmost window has the WS_EX_TOPMOST style. All topmost windows appear in the Z order before any non-topmost windows. A child window is grouped with its parent in Z order.

When an application creates a window, the system puts it at the top of the Z order for windows of the same type. You can use the BringWindowToTop function to bring a window to the top of the Z order for windows of the same type. You can rearrange the Z order by using the SetWindowPos and DeferWindowPos functions.

The user changes the Z order by activating a different window. The system positions the active window at the top of the Z order for windows of the same type. When a window comes to the top of Z order, so do its child windows. You can use the GetTopWindow function to search all child windows of a parent window and return a handle to the child window that is highest in Z order. The GetNextWindow function retrieves a handle to the next or previous window in Z order.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:42 PM   #17
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Yeah. The desired (by some I guess, not all) behavior is the same behavior already there with the key editor and arrange. The ME can't ever fall behind arrange in any case, as it should be.

Plugins can't fall behind arrange either, as it should be, but they also shouldn't be able to fall behind the key editor or the console ... always be above those windows in the Z-Order, collectively.

So I suppose all plugins and smaller dialogs should be of the same "type", in the same Z-Order grouping, and always on top of those other groups, as explained in your quoted text above.

Last edited by Lawrence; 07-31-2013 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I think while the pin solution was fast and solved the immediate problem, it's not optimal.

The application windows Z-Order should be (imo) pre-defined, from top to bottom, plugs, editors (including the console) and main window. Best case, you shouldn't have to pin down a plugin Ui to keep it from falling behind a larger editor or mixer window, it probably should do that by itself, exist on a layer that keeps it there above the console or editor windows all the time.
I always want the pin there to override.
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:33 AM   #19
Lawrence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
I always want the pin there to override.
I suppose it would still do that even if they did the other thing.
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I think while the pin solution was fast and solved the immediate problem, it's not optimal.

The application windows Z-Order should be (imo) pre-defined, from top to bottom, plugs, editors (including the console) and main window. Best case, you shouldn't have to pin down a plugin Ui to keep it from falling behind a larger editor or mixer window, it probably should do that by itself, exist on a layer that keeps it there above the console or editor windows all the time.
I'm all for unique features. I really think the pins and non-standard window behavior should be optional settings though. Default should be standard window operation.

Open a new window (I don't care if it's a plugin window in Reaper or a different app or a finder window) and it simply opens in focus (on top). And all previous windows KEEP THE SAME ORDER!


Right now we have all special cases and it looks for all the world like the fallout from kludging the one window "Digital Performer look" into standard windows.

Special case:
The arrange window can NOT be brought forward into focus when any other Reaper windows are opened. Note that you see the title bar of the arrange window un-gray (as if it were in focus) but it doesn't move to the front. Sure looks like a clear bug.

Special case:
Opening a new plugin window causes any other open plugin windows to change focus to 2nd from bottom. Original window hierarchy is lost.


By all means keep the unique features! But lets please get standard default operation. Reaper's GUI has egg on its face here.

Last edited by serr; 08-05-2013 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:50 AM   #21
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I just tried some rearrangement and realized the 'follow you' bug is still there for the mixer window. Plugins don't follow you to a new space by themselves anymore but put the mixer window in it's own space with the aim to flip between different spaces for the windows, all hell breaks loose! Touch anything in the arrange window and suddenly spaces flips to the mixer window by itself!

This is so much of a mess and so big a departure from Reapers stability and other functionality. Please please please fix the GUI! Pretty please?
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:30 AM   #22
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Must not have been time for GUI work in v4.5. OK...

I mean, no one elses DAW GUI is perfect either. Certainly not Protools. Logic Audio Hell? haha

But I bet Reaper could be...
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:51 AM   #23
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[img]http://img59.**************/img59/730/lykm.png[/img]

The preset list displays correctly when I disable the pin but then the plugin would always hide behind the fully maxed docked mixer.

And another quirk:

When I minimize Reaper to tray in this state and maximise again, the pin said goodbye.

[img]http://img809.**************/img809/5282/6ovm.png[/img]

Seems to happen with all plugins here.

[img]http://img9.**************/img9/761/rmx4.png[/img]

Win XP32, SP3, R4.52
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Old 11-02-2013, 06:36 PM   #24
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scuse me while i try to hijack some thread traffic a lil bit... one of the many problems i was trying to solve with this:
central fx and routing window idea:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=130438
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Old 11-03-2013, 09:11 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
When I minimize Reaper to tray in this state and maximise again, the pin said goodbye.
Maybe only a bug in the Windows version?
OSX (10.6.8) here and I can minimize plugins (did you mean plugins, not Reaper itself?) to the dock (what you called 'tray') and maximize again with no loss of pins. The pin can be engaged or not.

Minimizing and maximizing Reaper (main arrange window or any other open window) works as expected. The window in question will minimize to the dock and leave any/all other windows as they were.


I have to say that the pins seem like a good idea for plugin windows since these are a unique usage case where you sometimes want them always up front while you cycle focus between other windows. If this was intended as a workaround for the window focus bugs, then I'd say we got an unexpected useful feature out of it.

The big bugs here are still the focus not working right for the arrange window and the mix window jumping spaces when you touch a control.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:21 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
When I minimize Reaper to tray in this state and maximise again, the pin said goodbye.
I can conform no pin at all on the arrange window only. It's never there even if I never minimize the window. (I was so focused on the other windows I just noticed this now.)
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