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Old 02-21-2007, 11:13 AM   #1
daverich
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Default glitch in audio when opening plugs gui (FIXED)

If I play a vsti and then open/close the FX menu i get a slight glitch.

Seems to happen whatever the latency.

Doesn't happen in sonar,- any ideas?

Kind regards

Dave Rich
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Old 02-21-2007, 11:19 AM   #2
Jason Brian Merrill
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does it happen with ANY vsti or just a certain one or brand?
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:08 PM   #3
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i get this too. not always, but almost everytime. even on closing the gui of plugins! sometimes after closing and reopening several times after each other it seems to get better, but then again you'll get the drop outs again ...



maybe because an undo-step is created for this stuff everytime? definitely should be improved.
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:17 PM   #4
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it's actually because the current system stops running the fx while the plugin window opens (because so many plug-ins aren't thread safe in this respect), so you get a bit of clean passthrough. Perhaps muting the output would be better in this instance?

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Old 02-21-2007, 12:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
it's actually because the current system stops running the fx while the plugin window opens
puuh

that's bad justin. there's no way to let the plugin process without interruption? i mean what if you wanna do a live-performance on stage or use the save-live-output function. we really should be able to open and close plugins then without glitches.



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Perhaps muting the output would be better in this instance?
not really (if you ask me). still interruption
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
puuh

that's bad justin. there's no way to let the plugin process without interruption? i mean what if you wanna do a live-performance on stage or use the save-live-output function. we really should be able to open and close plugins then without glitches.





not really (if you ask me). still interruption

Well how else does one handle plug-ins that aren't thread safe? In an ideal world, this wouldn't be an issue (and indeed it isn't for our plug-ins since we detect them and trust them).
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:29 PM   #7
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suggestion:

for the current mode (plugins stopped for a short time when opening the gui) you should mute the output (with a very short fade-out and -in)


but:

you also should give us an option to disable this behaviour at all! so users with thread-safe plugins could enjoy glitchles uninterrupted playback while opening and closing guis.

at least myself would love to test it to see if it would work here ...

Last edited by Dstruct; 02-21-2007 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Well how else does one handle plug-ins that aren't thread safe? In an ideal world, this wouldn't be an issue (and indeed it isn't for our plug-ins since we detect them and trust them).
Perhaps actually maybe we should just do it on plug-ins that are known to have this problem..
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:30 PM   #9
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or just an option, yeah.. ok lemme do the option
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:33 PM   #10
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nice! thanks!
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:44 PM   #11
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I'm actually tweaking it to be less intrusive (i.e. it doesnt strictly bypass, the plug-in will also wait a short time for the config window to open before defaulting to bypassed), and making it a default option.. so you can disable it if you like
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:50 PM   #12
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ok, sounds good!


btw: what did you change in 1.802 exactly? http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5774

because it looks like this fixed some issue with shortcircuit2 (crash while opening gui).


but the glitches/interrupts also occured before 1.802. so will i get the crashes again if use your new option then? or are/were these two different problems?
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
but the glitches/interrupts also occured before 1.802. so will i get the crashes again if use your new option then? or are/were these two different problems?

The glitches/interrupts before would be the plug-in's fault rather than ours, before.. to some extent there's only so much we can do if a plug-in decides to behave poorly...

I think with the new stuff, you'll get the best of both worlds (i.e. the "safe" mode will be less intrusive)
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:28 PM   #14
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ok.

and with the new option disabled then, would a thread-unsafe plugin always crash or just from time to time? would be interesting to know (to give this information/hints to the plugin developers) ...
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
ok.

and with the new option disabled then, would a thread-unsafe plugin always crash or just from time to time? would be interesting to know (to give this information/hints to the plugin developers) ...
Usually just from time to time.. i.e. usually it happens when their plug-in's audio processing code is getting called at the same time as their config window creating code.. something they can easily fix, no doubt..
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:31 PM   #16
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alright. thanks!
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:39 PM   #17
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1.807 is up.. let me know how it goes...
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:51 PM   #18
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works! great! a pleasure to be able to playback without interruption!
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:55 PM   #19
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no offense to anyone, but i dont think you will find this type of response with certain big name DAW makers
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:59 PM   #20
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that's correct and that's why we choose reaper
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Old 02-21-2007, 02:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
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works! great! a pleasure to be able to playback without interruption!


wait justin:

i've just wanted to test with the option enabled (to hear the interruption) => crashes reaper when opening the gui of shortcircuit2!? doesn't make sense, right? with it disabled it works fine!?

any ideas, why i get crashes with the "safer" option?

Last edited by Dstruct; 02-21-2007 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 02-21-2007, 03:59 PM   #22
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with the option disabled it seems i get the crashes again (from time to time) that i saw before 1.802. so that's ok. tells me that shortcircuit2 isn't thread-safe yet.

but why does reaper crashes everytime when opening the gui of shortcircuit2 with this option enabled?
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
with the option disabled it seems i get the crashes again (from time to time) that i saw before 1.802. so that's ok. tells me that shortcircuit2 isn't thread-safe yet.

but why does reaper crashes everytime when opening the gui of shortcircuit2 with this option enabled?
And 1.806 didnt crash opening it at all?
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:27 PM   #24
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exactly. 1.802 till 1.806 were perfect (stable)! not a single crash when opening the gui of shortcircuit2 there! and i really did some long sessions with these versions.
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
exactly. 1.802 till 1.806 were perfect (stable)! not a single crash when opening the gui of shortcircuit2 there! and i really did some long sessions with these versions.
ahh, I see why! fixin
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:42 PM   #26
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glad to hear this!
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Old 02-21-2007, 06:00 PM   #27
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try this: http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1807_fix.zip

will probably upload a 1.808 tonight (but my dsl is down at home ick)

-J
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Old 02-21-2007, 06:49 PM   #28
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Quote:
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works! fine
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Old 02-22-2007, 04:20 AM   #29
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OK.

I'm buying this program.

That has to be the quickest - "slight grumble on a forum" to "fix build" I have ever witnessed.

Even when betatesting I've never seen something turnaround that quick.



Kind regards

Dave Rich
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:58 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
with the option disabled it seems i get the crashes again (from time to time) that i saw before 1.802. so that's ok. tells me that shortcircuit2 isn't thread-safe yet.
justin, 1.808 even seems to work stable with this option disabled here. not a single crash yet. was this ">60ms problem" also a problem in this mode before? if so, then it looks like shortcircuit2 is thread-safe then, right?
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Old 02-25-2007, 02:45 PM   #31
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justin, bad news:

just tried to work on a project that worked fine and stable with 1.809.

now in 1.810 i get the crashes again (see the screenshot) when opening the gui of shortcircuit2. it even crashes with the audio-bypass enabled! it doesn't crash always (but almost always) ...

Last edited by Dstruct; 03-09-2007 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:09 PM   #32
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same problem with version 1.811

the bypass-audio option doesn't prevent the crash. same behaviour, no matter if it's enabled or not ...
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Old 02-27-2007, 06:54 AM   #33
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still crashes in 1.812! justin urgent!
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Old 02-28-2007, 05:29 PM   #34
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Glitches also when moving focus between plugin gui and arrange windows, sometimes also when moving the FX window. Looks like a conflict between gfx card and audio (?) v1.813

It seems that it worked better in the past, but started to give problems around v. 1.8x.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:56 AM   #35
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I now have a weird problem whereby moving any control in a plugin will cause a glitch in the audio, but not until about 1 second has passed since the control was moved.

This is at low latency (around 8ms) too, it's definately not corresponding to latency.

Very strange indeed.

Kind regards

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Old 03-01-2007, 10:23 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daverich View Post
moving any control in a plugin will cause a glitch in the audio, but not until about 1 second has passed since the control was moved.
watch the undo-history log -> maybe the glitch occurs when reaper writes the undo-step for this parameter movement!?


justin: i still need an option to disable this stuff (undo-log for parameter changes) completely! thanks!
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:28 AM   #37
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that would certainly make sense, as further investigation has shown it's only with sample-based vsti, such as garritan.

I'm pretty sure the garritan samples are on another drive however.

Kind regards

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Old 03-01-2007, 10:33 AM   #38
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yup you're correct.

Setting the undo/redo level to 0 thereby disabling it fixes the problem.

Looks like reaper needs to be maybe caching this stuff in a little bit of ram instead?

Kind regards

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Old 03-01-2007, 10:46 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daverich View Post
Looks like reaper needs to be maybe caching this stuff in a little bit of ram instead?
or maybe this process (undo-creation) should have lower priority ...

the option "avoid restoring vst state on redo/undo if possible" might be the better workaround for you, as this doesn't disable redo/undo for all the other things!


personally i really would love an option to disable undo-logging for fx-parameter changes completely! i just hate it. we already can disable it with the "avoid restoring vst state on redo/undo if possible" option, but the undo still lists the parameter-changes instead of hiding them in this case! definitely needs a fix (or improvements)!
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:48 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
or maybe this process (undo-creation) should have lower priority ...
It's already at the lowest priority, and happens asynchronously to audio. However, if the underlying plug-in locks its audio processing while saving state, there's not much we can do with that.

Quote:
personally i really would love an option to disable undo-logging for fx-parameter changes completely! i just hate it. we already can disable it with the "avoid restoring vst state on redo/undo if possible" option, but the undo still lists the parameter-changes instead of hiding them in this case! definitely needs a fix (or improvements)!
Unfortunately with the way REAPER's undo system is designed, it's not really possible to do without disabling undo completely. :/

-Justin
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