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Old 08-08-2010, 11:01 AM   #41
Lawrence
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well you have to read the rest of my post to understand where i was coming from...
I know. I was just yanking your chain a bit there.

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Old 08-08-2010, 11:02 AM   #42
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and yet still ill write a part faster in reaper or FL studio faster for my workflow any day, like an instrument, not sibelius
Ah, now I have no problem with that statement at all. If the key combos and functions and layouts work better for you in Reaper/FL great. Although, I'd love to see what you consider "work flow." FL has some good ideas about that for MIDI. But Reaper? You have to be kidding. It's about as convoluted and workflow retarded as can possibly be.
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:05 AM   #43
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Discussion of Reaper's midi, (generally speaking, not trying paint with a broad brush as there are exceptions) more often than not, becomes an exercise in rationalization.
Ahem...

Or "cognitive dissonance" might be an apt description of the reactions to some of these kinds of things.

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Old 08-08-2010, 11:16 AM   #44
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Midi editing in reaper sucks!

But it's sucking the dogs bollox

It's not so bad now days and it gets better with each update

It's only a matter of time. Cockos have more than proved that there not finished with her just yet

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Old 08-08-2010, 11:32 AM   #45
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- bad mouse sensitivity. (very hard to get used to it, it feels defective especially vs velocities...

- No gridline per octave ?! wt*... is it that hard to had such a basic helper??? it is one of the most basic things in a midi editor graphics...
I have to agree on that, i still can't feel at home with the mouse sensitivity it's really annoying. Cubase was more "solid" and easier to drag/move/expand/shrink notes. For example the selective areas on the left and right sides of a note are really thin and they should be more thick, i think the notes miss a "solid" feel to it. Even the center of the notes don't feel right too.

And a gridline per octave is URGENTLY needed. This is a really basic and mandatory feature that should've been implemented from day one. I seriously hope it makes it into V4 or anytime soon be it as standard fixed implementation or as an option "Show gridline per octave"

EDIT: Whoooops, velocity editing is NOT horrible when you do it right at the notes sorry about that previous comment.

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Old 08-08-2010, 11:36 AM   #46
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Shan, as I said, PT is probably the only DAW that I never bother to test in depth..., because my first impression on it was that it is too old-school/close minded...etc (seems like I was right about it..)

since im not going to test protools...I will have to go with your voice on that. even tho it doesn't matter because both of them suck then...

anyway, regarding to the thin CC events, you should see how they work in FL.

btw only the velocity cc should stay as events..
Pitch/modulation and the rest of CC events should be replaced with Envelope!



roundish notes is an helpful feature...
if you put a short note in the middle of a long note:

with squared notes you will see it as 3 notes.
with roundish notes you can easily see that there are only two notes..

this is one of the things that are LOW priority for me, but they are still usefull.
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:38 AM   #47
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I have to agree on that, i still can't feel at home with the mouse sensitivity it's really annoying. Cubase was more "solid" and easier to drag/move/expand/shrink notes. For example the selective areas on the left and right sides of a note are really thin and they should be more thick, i think the notes miss a "solid" feel to it. Even the center of the notes don't feel right too. Velocity editing is just horrible.

And a gridline per octave is URGENTLY needed. This is a really basic and mandatory feature that should've been implemented from day one.
totally!
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:41 AM   #48
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But Reaper? You have to be kidding. It's about as convoluted and workflow retarded as can possibly be.
I have no experience with FL, but a lot with some of the other sequencers and I think all in all Reaper's editor is rather good.

But I think it depends a lot on where you are coming from.


E.g.:

eXT/XT2 got a lot of praise for MIDI editing, although it's painfully basic.
For instance its quantize feature is a joke compared to Reaper's. Since it's always 100% I usually couldn't use it, but instead had to quantize by hand - talk about 'workflow' - but depending on what music you make, this might not be a problem for you.


For me Reaper's MIDI editor is already miles-ahead that of eXT (and even more so that of XT2).
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:42 AM   #49
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I have to agree on that, i still can't feel at home with the mouse sensitivity it's really annoying. Cubase was more "solid" and easier to drag/move/expand/shrink notes. For example the selective areas on the left and right sides of a note are really thin and they should be more thick, i think the notes miss a "solid" feel to it. Even the center of the notes don't feel right too.

I agree with this.
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:46 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Reflected

- No erase tool

- No velocity tools


I'm so glad Reaper will never use tools.

----

I'm new to Reaper - does your comment mean (Jens) that Reaper does not have any way to erase data from the piano roll, or you cannot edit velocity for a note or selected region of notes?

Surely, I'm wrong....yes?
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:48 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Renan L.B View Post
I have to agree on that, i still can't feel at home with the mouse sensitivity it's really annoying. Cubase was more "solid" and easier to drag/move/expand/shrink notes. For example the selective areas on the left and right sides of a note are really thin and they should be more thick, i think the notes miss a "solid" feel to it. Even the center of the notes don't feel right too.
totally agree on this too. just about every other midi editor i have used has this 'solid' feel that reaper really lacks. i would say reapers feels a bit 'flaky' - a bit hit and miss with intricate mousework - it can very tedious when making electronica that relies upon lots of intricate and detailed midi note editing - i find that i grab the wrong note or accidentally delete a note all the time. the 'feel' of a working environment might sound strange to some users but it really is important if you spend countless hours using it.

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Old 08-08-2010, 11:48 AM   #52
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ufff lots of noobs...(jens is one of them! yes you are...) too bad I don't have time to make animation which will make them jump and scream "mummy mummy! i want that too, i want that too!!!!!"
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:59 AM   #53
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Would someone be so kind as to answer my previous question about velocity edits and erasings of note data/regions of data in Reaper's MIDI Piano Roll?
(a few posts back)

Thanks!
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:02 PM   #54
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ufff lots of noobs...(jens is one of them! yes you are...)
You're starting to become offensive. Please stop that, all these threads of yours are beginning to lose their purpose every time you start talking like that.
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:03 PM   #55
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For instance its (eXT) quantize feature is a joke compared to Reaper's. Since it's always 100% I usually couldn't use it, but instead had to quantize by hand - talk about 'workflow' - but depending on what music you make, this might not be a problem for you.
I think that's where me and Jason agreed about the subjective, and where the thread title calling it "worst" only kinda adds to distracting from the real issues or concerns.

There are some who feel that Reaper's quantize is "a joke" because it doesn't have groove quantize or groove extraction, a modern feature that's been around for quite awhile and that should exist in any midi sequencer imo. When mixing midi with live audio tracks I almost always extract the groove from the audio and test it on the midi. Not possible with Reaper.

But me calling Reaper's sequencer "a joke" would only be a distraction since it would only cause people to defend it, rather than focus on the point, that it's still missing that very old FR... which is an editing feature btw. One that currently has to be done "by hand" like you say above.

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Old 08-08-2010, 12:03 PM   #56
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Would someone be so kind as to answer my previous question about velocity edits and erasings of note data/regions of data in Reaper's MIDI Piano Roll?
(a few posts back)

Thanks!
You can delete both note and CC data from the MIDI editor, of course. Also you CAN edit velocities, naturally.
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:12 PM   #57
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You can delete both note and CC data from the MIDI editor, of course. Also you CAN edit velocities, naturally.

Well, then what did a previous poster above mean when he said that there are no "tools" in Reaper for velocity edits and erasing?

(Sorry...new to Reaper!) - SONAR convert

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Old 08-08-2010, 12:15 PM   #58
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Shan, as I said, PT is probably the only DAW that I never bother to test in depth..., because my first impression on it was that it is too old-school/close minded...etc (seems like I was right about it..)
You are correct. It is very dated in many areas, even MIDI still.

Quote:
anyway, regarding to the thin CC events, you should see how they work in FL.
I'll check them out in FL.

Quote:
btw only the velocity cc should stay as events..
Pitch/modulation and the rest of CC events should be replaced with Envelope!
Definitely a +1 on the envelope lane.

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roundish notes is an helpful feature...
if you put a short note in the middle of a long note:

with squared notes you will see it as 3 notes.
with roundish notes you can easily see that there are only two notes..

this is one of the things that are LOW priority for me, but they are still usefull.
Now this is the type of feedback that I personally feel should be in your first post. It's a good description of the pro/cons and something I'd vote for, as it would make for better/faster workflows in REAPER. So, where does one vote for this and discuss?

Shane
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:16 PM   #59
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Well, then what did a previous poster above mean when he said that there are no "tools" in Reaper for velocity edits and erasing?

(Sorry...new to Reaper!) - SONAR convert

Ben

"Tools" like you have in Sonar - you have erase, draw and select tools in Sonar's PRV, right?
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:18 PM   #60
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Hey

could not resist to add my comment.

I work in different studios and use different software(mostly on macs)
I find pro tools and digital performer midi editors in comparison to reaper a real pain in the neck to use.the workflow is much slower and specially the velocity handles are very hard to use because they are too small and to close together.The midi editor workflow in logic is also slower for me.

Im not too keen on the eraser and velocity tools idea.I much more like all in one tool with key modifiers which is in reaper now and the velocity handles on the notes are a joy to use.


I think the midi editor updates are going in the right direction.Its just getting better.

regards J
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:23 PM   #61
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roundish notes is an helpful feature...
if you put a short note in the middle of a long note:

with squared notes you will see it as 3 notes.
with roundish notes you can easily see that there are only two notes..

this is one of the things that are LOW priority for me, but they are still usefull.
Hmmm... one way to know that is to look at the velocity data but sure, if the velocity lane isn't open there would be no way to know and "rounding" would help. That problem doesn't really exist in Studio One because each note has a lighter "tip" that represents velocity. You can easily tell there are three notes there... in the lower section.

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Old 08-08-2010, 12:25 PM   #62
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Default Yes but... ghosts items ?? ;)

Hello there,

I compose "beats", and I nearly am 100% MIDI.
So I use Reaper and its MIDI editing a few hours each day.

I am getting used to it... back in my Sonar days, I was editing "figures", adjusting velocity precisely, same with time positioning. Now I do all this by ear, and eye, and Reaper is cool for that. Especially to edit velocities, I find it very intuitive and nice to use.

But as long as Reaper won't have a basic ghost/sibling item thing... working with MIDI will be a pure PITA. I'll try to wait for v4... but if they still refuse to implement this basic feature... they'll lose customers, sorry...

each time I make a MIDI editing in an item, I have to... copy paste the modificaton in every single item that happens to be a "sibbling" of this one... totally time-wasting, frustrating...
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:28 PM   #63
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----

I'm new to Reaper - does your comment mean (Jens) that Reaper does not have any way to erase data from the piano roll, or you cannot edit velocity for a note or selected region of notes?

Surely, I'm wrong....yes?

Yes, you're wrong of course - it's just that you do not need dedicated tools for this in Reaper - you only have one single 'mouse-mode' with which you can do all the editing.
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:33 PM   #64
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each time I make a MIDI editing in an item, I have to... copy paste the modificaton in every single item that happens to be a "sibbling" of this one... totally time-wasting, frustrating...
Yes, that's why you have to do it in a different way in Reaper - with the drawback that you lose other functionality such as the inline-editor.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=42347
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:34 PM   #65
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But as long as Reaper won't have a basic ghost/sibling item thing... working with MIDI will be a pure PITA. I'll try to wait for v4... but if they still refuse to implement this basic feature... they'll lose customers, sorry...

each time I make a MIDI editing in an item, I have to... copy paste the modificaton in every single item that happens to be a "sibbling" of this one... totally time-wasting, frustrating...
You do have ghosted MIDI items, but you need to convert a MIDI item to a ghostable item, which will write that MIDI item to MIDI file on your hard drive. It is a bit cumbersome, but possible. We're all waiting for in-project ghosted items!
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:37 PM   #66
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Greetings,
New to Reaper as of about a week ago. Former Cubase, Logic, DP user. MIDI is about 60% of what I do. Although the program does not offer everything I would like to have, the rate of features being added is astounding. I've got no doubts that we'll be seeing improvements over time.

Agreed with the poster about ghosting notes. If you have sibling events and you make a change in one of them, they all should change. Badly needed.

For my needs I was able to get work done right off the bat and that is what counts. Some things are a pain, but survivable. I noticed that in the FR section there was a long thread started by Evil Dragon about a tabbed interface for MIDI editing. The Cockos team has elevated the FR and so that means it is being seriously considered. If they add the feature it would be a windfall.

In my experience, at the 500 foot level, DP was great but everything was too small. I nearly went blind with that program! Logic MIDI is so buggy it baffles me how anyone gets anything done with MIDI using it. Cubase is a strong contender, but then you have to deal with the rest of Cubase. On the audio side Reaper is far superior IMHO.

So, I'll keep plugging along with Reaper. It may not be the best MIDI editor, but to me it is not the worst. And it has far, far more potential to improve in areas where people want it to improve than any other DAW out there.

-Kevin
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:49 PM   #67
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Yes, that's why you have to do it in a different way in Reaper - with the drawback that you lose other functionality such as the inline-editor.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=42347
oh I don't really care about the inline midi editor (convenient, but not 100% need)... but I DO care about... undo!!!

I would use MIDI files but this way I lose UNDO!! I can not work without the history... I mean, I always go back and forth, sometimes I press Ctrl-Z 30 times to go back to a previous version...
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:49 PM   #68
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While not perfect, Reaper's MIDI Editor is very usable. I like it better than I do Cubase, Sonar, Live, Acid, Logic 5, Orion, FL Studio, Reason, and Darkwave Studio. I have never tried Pro Tools, so I am unable to make a comparison.

But, I got to get this off my chest. I am so sick and tired of hearing people say, if they don't do this they will lose customers or if they don't do that they will lose customers. Let's make some points here.

1. What other company listens to their customer base to the level Cockos does? The closest second is Synapse Audio. Ableton used to. Yamaberg, Cakewalk, Avid, Sony, no dice.

2. The people making these comments are in no way qualified to speak for the market. At the end of the day, the only customer Cockos may lose is the individual making the comments. These people think way too highly of themselves by appointing themselves "spokesperson for the DAW market". I looked over the EULA - Cockos in no way shape or form has promised to add anything to the product. Yet, they do, on a weekly basis sometimes.

The fact is, Cockos has a plan to grow this product, and they have done a kickin' job getting it done. I am confident that they will continue to enhance all the components of this product.

Don't get me wrong, if you do not like something about this product, you should by all means express that. This is how the product gets better. And, Reaper is not perfect for everyone, and that is OK. I would rather someone find a product they are happy with, rather than using Reaper when it doesn't meet their needs and gripe all the time.

However, making idiotic sounding blanket statements in a pathetic attempt to falsely bolster your position is just foolish. Because, in the end, making idle threats like Reaper will lose market share if they don't implement something by a given version without the scientific data to back it up is just talking out your arse and makes you sound like a chump.
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:50 PM   #69
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We're all waiting for in-project ghosted items!
But I I just checked a "top priority FR list"... does not appear there...
It seems people don't really care about MIDI here...
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Old 08-08-2010, 12:51 PM   #70
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But I I just checked a "top priority FR list"... does not appear there...
It seems people don't really care about MIDI here...
People care about MIDI over here, and there is quite a number of MIDI requests, you didn't check that well

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=28


Also, never search the tracker by priority. It's not telling the real state on the matter. Use keyword search.
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Old 08-08-2010, 01:05 PM   #71
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Ghostable everything (inc automation points) in v4 would be sweet. Being able to therefore ghost copy regions by doing a keymod drag or KC.... lubbly jubbly.
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Old 08-08-2010, 01:13 PM   #72
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Ghostable automation points? Not before automation items! In fact automation items are kind of a prerequisite for that one.
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Old 08-08-2010, 01:14 PM   #73
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I dare not say Reaper doesn't have room to improve in the MIDI department, but it sure sounds like you need to learn how to use Reaper rather than Reaper learn to be used by you. (Eurythmics anyone?)
Exactly!!

If you don't care to spend the time to learn how Reaper works... use something else.

Personally the OP's desire for Reaper to be more like FL is really getting old.

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Old 08-08-2010, 01:26 PM   #74
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"Tools" like you have in Sonar - you have erase, draw and select tools in Sonar's PRV, right?
Indeed I do....

I follow now...thanks!
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Old 08-08-2010, 01:27 PM   #75
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Perhaps had the OP said IMHO it would have made more sense.

I'm with Shan, having been training half the PT community for a couple of years with the blog videos I have to say the REAPER MIDI editor is a dream.

Was it made specifically for me? NO, but don't confuse the 2 issues.
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Old 08-08-2010, 01:29 PM   #76
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You do have ghosted MIDI items, but you need to convert a MIDI item to a ghostable item, which will write that MIDI item to MIDI file on your hard drive. It is a bit cumbersome, but possible. We're all waiting for in-project ghosted items!
it is absolutely, utterly, without a doubt, needed
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Old 08-08-2010, 01:41 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by winbe View Post
It seems people don't really care about MIDI here...

I'm a total Reaper noob... and this is the impression I get. There seems to be more of a push in the Reaper community for thiings like Eastic Audio. That said, I don't have such a hard time with Reapers MIDI editor though, it's the lack of commands for selecting and manipulating MIDI based on certain criteria that keeps me from being able to fully make the switch to Reaper. As noted earlier in this thread...

Grabbing every other note in a 4 minute piano piece?
....
Selecting all notes between C3 and G4 that are on the 3rd beat of every measure
....
Splitting chords to seperate tracks (I know there is a JS plug for this, but it's pretty limited in function)
....
Creating crecendos relative to the velocites that are already on the track
....
Transposing based on user defined scales
....
this list could go on...

Personally, I like the MIDI editor for the most part. I like that you don't have to constantly switch tools, it's a real breath of fresh air.

In regards to a previous post on the MIDI editor in PT. IMO, it works pretty similar to the one in Reaper... want to change a notes velocity that's in a chord where you have close attacks.. simply drag on the note itself, just as you would in Reaper.... although I LOVE how you can actually see the velocity number (along with the note name) in the note using Reaper. Can't see which note you're selecting because it falls exactly on another note with the same attack and release time... turn the visibility of the offending track off....
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Old 08-08-2010, 01:56 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbe View Post
oh I don't really care about the inline midi editor (convenient, but not 100% need)... but I DO care about... undo!!!

I would use MIDI files but this way I lose UNDO!! I can not work without the history... I mean, I always go back and forth, sometimes I press Ctrl-Z 30 times to go back to a previous version...
yes, good point and likewise annoying...
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Old 08-08-2010, 02:35 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Here we go, Reflected's monthly cryout post!
Re-quoted for truth.
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Old 08-08-2010, 03:20 PM   #80
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I like the MIDI, especially with the recent updates.

There are many possible innovations for the PR Midi editor, I think we're in the right place, Reaper is developing constantly.

Not having to select pencils and erasers etc. is great. The mouse pointer sensitivity may need some adjustment on certain note lengths, I can't really quite tell, thats a minor fix if it is an issue.

Anyway, I think its great, I enjoy using it, also, being able to zoom so easily, and having the track view zoom independent of the PR zoom if you want, really great.

Definitely can't be called the "worst" midi editor, IMO, better than the other one's I've used. So I think there could be a more accurate title for a thread about MIDI.
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