Render vs. Bounce

[murrayof]

Hi, I learned how to use a DAW on an old version of pro-tools, and I'm enjoying getting to know reaper. My question is: Is rendering any more or less reliable than bouncing? Thank you.

[domzy]

can you explain what you understand to be the difference between rendering & bouncing - i'm not sure there is a consensus as to strict definitions?

[Reason]

When I had a hardware multitrack, "bouncing" meant recording multiple tracks down to one or two. EG, record drums on tracks 1-6, get a good mix of them, and then bounce that to stereo 7/8, thus freeing up 6 more tracks at the expense of losing the ability to adjust individual drum elements later down the road.

If that's what you're talking about, then rendering a track is superior because there's no track limit. You're just removing CPU load by "baking in" the effects on that track. I think this is the Freeze function? Haven't used that, actually.

[zeekat]

"You can export live output to disk, using the File, Save live output to disk (bounce)command. This is similar to File, Render, except that whereas the Render command works offline, Export Live to Disk works in real time. You can make adjustments on the fly to your settings while your project is being mixed down."

from the obscure source called "Reaper User Guide"

[Tomm]

rendering wins for a few reasons, at least...

1. it's what you expect from live bounce but at the fraction of the time.
2. less setup, reaper is ready to render straight away, for bouncing you'd have to set up new tracks and configure the proper routing for an accurate result.
3. less dependency on perfect system stability, in other words, if CPU or audio interface hiccups during a live bounce, that will be recorded, while with rendering the process will just stop momentarily and continue as system resources become available and you'd never notice an issue on the final result
4. rendering is essentially a background process, you won't have to step away from comptuer in fear that you bump something that intrudes on a live bounce

[zeekat]

One of the first posts I made here was about a plugin where "render" didn't work (never ended, stuck on ETA infinity), you had to bounce it. It was Proteus VSTi on Windows XP, I guess it's rather unlikely now.

[Tomm]

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=35625
yea there are exceptions with older plugins that were maybe not designed to be "rendered", I recall loooong ago in the very early 2000s WAVES had this issue with newer DAWs that started to use rendering instead of the older live-bounce technique, they somehow sounded different when rendered... I figured it was a DAW issue, but I've read some folks say it was some DRM or freq/bitrate related thing.

[serr]

It's just terms.

render = bounce = freeze = glue

The different terms don't suggest differences in settings either. You can adjust the settings for 1:1 with the source format or something less.

Freeze and glue in Reaper obviously have different workflow elements. The controls for changing settings or formats varies between commends. The part where the output from either a single item or track or a mix bus gets printed to file is the same.

[jnif]

Originally Posted by serr

It's just terms.

render = bounce = freeze = glue

= apply fx = record output = flatten = consolidate = resampling = bounce-in-place = export

All similar but not exactly same. Difference is mainly in workflow and available options.

Also in Reaper, the term 'render' can mean quite different things.
For example 'File -> Render...' vs 'Render item to new file' (ctrl-alt left drag item).

jnif

[Tomm]

Originally Posted by serr

It's just terms.

no, we're talking about all those vs "live-bouncing" which if you were around back when DAWs started, or a ProTools user back in the 90s, there was no "render" option. You had to bounce things down similar to how you do it with analog tape machines, recording the mix buss down to 2 new channels in real time, waiting for the song to finish playing.

additionally, some people have outboard gear they want bounced down to a digital master, so playing that through realtime ("live bounce) is the only way for that

[serr]

Originally Posted by Tomm

no, we're talking about all those vs "live-bouncing" which if you were around back when DAWs started, or a ProTools user back in the 90s, there was no "render" option. You had to bounce things down similar to how you do it with analog tape machines, recording the mix buss down to 2 new channels in real time, waiting for the song to finish playing.

additionally, some people have outboard gear they want bounced down to a digital master, so playing that through realtime ("live bounce) is the only way for that

First post mentioned "bounce". So "live bounce" from the old Protools and not "bounce". I was using Protools HD (TDM before that) since the late 90s actually. It was happiness and light to me back then. Apparently I never used the "live bounce" feature and preferred "bounce".

So the live output feature in Reaper would line up with that.

The "bounce" feature in Protools back then was only real time too. The system used the mix and farm hardware cards and audio was real time. I don't think they did that as an intentional preferred choice between "keeping it real time vs allowing max speed offline". Real time processing was simply the only option the system had back then. Protools HD was about 15 years ago for me though. Might have forgotten something.

[Tomm]

ah yea, I assumed he meant the realtime live bounce, maybe from something like the free protools LE, as I remember having to do that on that one... but I agree OP could've been talking about non-realtime bounce... or bouncing on balls for all I know...

[murrayof]

Thank you for all your help everyone. It was all helpful. I only get to work on this stuff intermittently, so sorry I posted and disappeared for a day.

With the pro-tools I would use back in the day I believe "bounce to disk" was the way to create a stereo file - your final mix. So, when I saw "render" on reaper, I wasn't sure if that was a shortcut, or something equally suitable for a final mix.

When I searched online I did find a number of people talking about difficulty with rendering on reaper, and how they had to use the bounce option to make a final mix - but I think those posts were mostly pretty out of date.

[serr]

I honestly don't remember Protools having a 'record live output to disk constantly in the background while you work' feature. Although it's possible I just wasn't interested in such a feature and forgot it. "Bounce to disk" is what Protools called "render" in Reaper-speak.

Troubles with rendering in Reaper would be operator error or computer struggles. Not someone comparing 'render' to some other form of rendering. That's telephone game.

But if you WERE looking for a 'record the mix bus to disk constantly in the background' feature (as opposed to 'bounce to disk' in Protools or 'render' in Reaper), that would be the 'save live output to disk' feature.

Render = bounce to disk
Render in Reaper includes full speed 'offline' non-realtime modes in addition to realtime. Such features weren't dismissed as unwanted by Protools back then. They simply weren't possible.

[embrcrndm]

Originally Posted by serr

Such features weren't dismissed as unwanted by Protools back then. They simply weren't possible.

this gave me shivers.






(fyi serr i ended up in this thread by total coincidence; I'm trying to put my mind at ease with offline rendering ha!)

[serr]

Originally Posted by embrcrndm

I'm trying to put my mind at ease with offline rendering ha!)

If you don't trust something...
You can tick the box in the Reaper window to put the finished render in the mix session in a new track. It will be lined up in sync with the session. Click the polarity button and hit play with the phase reversed render. Silence means it's a bit for bit exact copy.

Now, any modulation fx are going to be different every time! They don't null from one pass to the next! So, mind that. But subtracting one file from another and seeing all zeros (null) is the way to compare two files for being identical or not. That's what I do when I don't trust something! (Note that that 'something' is usually me!)

[embrcrndm]

Yep done plenty of null tests before I'm a worrier ha!

[akademie]

Originally Posted by serr

If you don't trust something...
You can tick the box in the Reaper window to put the finished render in the mix session in a new track. It will be lined up in sync with the session. Click the polarity button and hit play with the phase reversed render. Silence means it's a bit for bit exact copy.

Now, any modulation fx are going to be different every time! They don't null from one pass to the next! So, mind that. But subtracting one file from another and seeing all zeros (null) is the way to compare two files for being identical or not. That's what I do when I don't trust something! (Note that that 'something' is usually me!)

Also if you have effects on Master Track, then it won't null because those are already applied in the imported rendered file (if it was "Master mix" render option, of course)... so instead you can then route that rendered track directly only to hw output (while disabling Parent send so it does not route through Master).

[embrcrndm]

Of course.

I've just done some tests. From a mix session with all modulation and time-based FX turned off that uses the "Master" as a mix bus (with compression and EQ on it), I rendered the mix offline and online.
Both renders were at the same sample rate and bit depth as the project, which is the same SR and BD as the audio in the project (48k/24bit).

They almost completely null, apart from a couple of peaks.

What would cause this?

[akademie]

Originally Posted by embrcrndm

...<snip>

They almost completely null, apart from a couple of peaks.

What would cause this?

Try to render at 32fp bit depth (to preserve any overshot peaks that may exist in project but are then truncated in 24bit renders).

[embrcrndm]

Just rendered offline and online but at 32 bit floating point and compared those two files - same behaviour on exactly the same two peaks. Audible clicks.

Interestingly, when I make a track to internally print the mix to rather than using Render*, that nulls when compared to the online render except for the second of the two clicks. The first click nulls though, when comparing 24bit render vs 24bit print, and comparing 32bit fp render vs 32bit fp print.

* I.e. create a new track, copy my Master (mix bus) inserts to it and disable Master FX, then make that new track the parent of all other tracks/folders in the session and set it to record its outputs, then hit Record, ensuring that the bit depth in Project Settings is the same as the Rendered mix I'm comparing it to (24 or 32fp).

[Ladgrove]

I am going to keep posting on threads of this nature until Reaper Devs get sick of me!

Don't use Render. It does NOT give you a mixdown that sounds the same as what you hear in the DAW. The only way to achieve this is to use Bounce to Disk, then hit play, and generate a .WAV (or whatever format) file.

My understanding is the default pan law is to blame, but the fact that Render and Bounce don't create two tracks that null when you phase flip one of them is virtually criminal.

My mixes sounded lifeless for ages until I figured this out. I am astonished by the default behaviour of Render and I think Reaper Devs need to address this. Just my 2c.

[Javier Robledo]

Hi, It is the first time It happens to me, but I can confirm that at least in the project I was working today there is a Big difference between offline rendering and real time Bounce.

Real time Bounce sound exactly as project into REAPER sounds.

Render sounds different , worst than what sounds in project.

Format doesnt matter, I did it with mp3 and several wavs with different bits rates.


Does anybody knows why this happens ???

Is it normal ?...

Thanks 🙂

[Fabian]

Originally Posted by Javier Robledo

Hi, It is the first time It happens to me, but I can confirm that at least in the project I was working today there is a Big difference between offline rendering and real time Bounce.

Real time Bounce sound exactly as project into REAPER sounds.

Render sounds different , worst than what sounds in project.

Format doesnt matter, I did it with mp3 and several wavs with different bits rates.


Does anybody knows why this happens ???

Is it normal ?...

Thanks 🙂

As mentioned in earlier posts, some plugins do not behave well with faster than real-time rendering, they only work correctly with real-time rendering (aka bouncing). Try setting your render speed to on-line real-time, see if that fixes the issue.

[Javier Robledo]

Originally Posted by Fabian

As mentioned in earlier posts, some plugins do not behave well with faster than real-time rendering, they only work correctly with real-time rendering (aka bouncing). Try setting your render speed to on-line real-time, see if that fixes the issue.

Thanks Fabián

I'll check some ideas and report here